Soil pH Versus H2O pH For Outdoor Grow Question

[seedsandstems]

Hello. This is my first post. I've lurked around the forums here for well over a year and love the knowledge I have gained through this community. Reading through many grow journals has helped me tremendously. Before I post my question, I would just like to give a little bit of background regarding my growing experience. I have done 4 very successful indoor grows. I started with DWC but finally settled on a fully automated Coco Coir drain-to-waste system and the results have been everything I hoped for. I've only grown autoflowers mainly because they are kind of idiot proof for your first time grower which I still consider myself a bit of a noob and I just enjoy the simplicity of autos. However, I want to take advantage of the climate where I live and grow outdoors for the next few months and just shut down the grow closet for a while. Where I live has an extremely long spring, summer, fall grow climate and I can easily get two grows in with autos before Fall sets in. I'm also an avid outdoor gardener and grow all sorts of veggies in raised beds and containers so I have a lot of outdoor growing experience in general. Over the years, I've fully automated my vegetable gardens for watering and I use all organic techniques, soil amendments and nutes, which finally leads to my question!

My tap water comes out of the tap with a pH of 7.8. It is some of the "hardest" water in the country. I have never used Cal/Mag because there is so much of it in our tap water. TDS is 280. Obviously, for indoor grows, I ph'd down the water in my reservoir to combat this. However, for the outdoor grow, I want to add it to my automated outdoor system that my vegetables are on. I want to make it as hassle free as possible. I'm using Fox Farms Ocean Floor for soil. So the big question is . . . is there any type of soil amendment or top dressing that I can use that will help lower the pH as the water works it's way through the soil? Are there any tips or tricks that I can use to avoid hand watering and constantly adjusting the pH? It's just a top down watering system with a vortex style spray nozzle. I'm open to any and all suggestion and thank you in advance for your responses. Peace!

 

[TorturedSoul]

Here's an article about (soil, outdoor) pH in general that has sections on both lowering and raising pH (along with information about buffering one's soil, et cetera):
Changing Soil pH, Soil pH Adjustment, Lowering Soil pH
Here is another, shorter article (which has some overlap in information):
How To Change Your Soil's pH | Horticulture and Home Pest News

This is my first post.

The first of many, I hope.

Where I live has an extremely long spring, summer, fall grow climate and I can easily get two grows in with autos before Fall sets in.

I'd think you could also grow a photoperiodic plant or two, with a climate like that.

I'm also an avid outdoor gardener and grow all sorts of veggies in raised beds and containers

.

so I have a lot of outdoor growing experience in general.

Well, cannabis IS just a plant, after all. You should do well.

My tap water comes out of the tap with a pH of 7.8.

I've seen 8.3 to 8.5. At 8.0, back when I used General Hydroponics three-part Flora series, I often hit (or got very near) my pH target of 5.9 just from the nutrient mix, in the middle of flowering.

It is some of the "hardest" water in the country. I have never used Cal/Mag because there is so much of it in our tap water. TDS is 280.

That's not "extremely" high total dissolved solid count, lol. But it is high. BtW, did you ever have your water tested to see what, exactly, was in it? "Cal/Mag" is not one element - it is two, calcium and magnesium. If you had high levels of calcium but not high levels of magnesium, then your plants might have benefited from a source of Mg to keep the ratio correct (or, alternatively, just to add enough in the first place, if your nutrient regime did not have an adequate amount). Epsom salt, for example, has Mg but no Ca.

Also, not all Ca in tap water comes out in a form that plants can easily use. It is possible to have high levels of the stuff and still end up with a deficiency, in practice.

Are there any tips or tricks that I can use to avoid hand watering and constantly adjusting the pH? It's just a top down watering system with a vortex style spray nozzle.[/QUOTE]

<SHRUGS> If you KNOW that your water's pH is consistent, and you KNOW that you'll want to end up with the same pH of said water every time you water your plants (assuming that the pH of the soil does not naturally change over time as the plants growing in it consume certain elements that have combined with everything else to cause the soil to be at whatever pH it is at any one time, et cetera)... Then you could always set up some kind of reservoir, preferably with an aeration device (not a lot of money for that), and buy a pH-adjusting/dosing device. I've even seen pH monitor / controller combinations (two separate devices, but they work together) from Milwaukee that will use the pH monitor's reading to "know" when to dose the solution (in this case, water). And I assume that Milwaukee Instruments isn't the only company that makes the things. The device I saw only dosed with one thing, though - so the user could set it to adjust pH up or down (by choice of adjuster, and flipping a switch on the device) - but not both.

I expect that the (level of) importance of constantly monitoring and adjusting one's water pH is significantly less when growing outdoors than inside, in a hydroponic setup. Again, that assumes a properly-buffered, healthy soil - and, for that matter, that one is growing either directly in the ground or in really large containers where there is an actual biosphere... thing going on, with all the microbial life/etc. that such a setup provides (and provides for - which small containers probably do not). But my outdoor cannabis-growing experience is both limited and stretched out over many years - so I am definitely not any kind of expert, and my advice should not be taken as expert advice. For that matter, I don't consider myself an expert at anything, really, lol, and so you should assume there's an "IMHO" attached to the majority of my words, even if I do not type it. Unless I add sources - and then... question the sources. Question everything in life, actually. You may find that advice you have been given and/or things you have read turned out to be wrong. And even if this does not end up being the case, the process tends to help one learn more than just blindly following someone's "how-to" ever will.

Btw, lol: Hi, Im TorturedSoul. I ramble. . . .

 

[TorturedSoul]

BtW, if you like outdoor growing - or random bits of knowledge, or merely a chance to laugh, go up to the top of the page and click on the Search icon (the magnifying glass graphic on the top right). When the search box appears, ignore everything other than the "By:" box. In it, type rangerdanger and then click on the search button. He is no longer with us (RiP), but his knowledge - and his humor - lives on.

 

[seedsandstems]

Here's an article about (soil, outdoor) pH in general that has sections on both lowering and raising pH (along with information about buffering one's soil, et cetera):
Changing Soil pH, Soil pH Adjustment, Lowering Soil pH
Here is another, shorter article (which has some overlap in information):
How To Change Your Soil's pH | Horticulture and Home Pest News



The first of many, I hope.



I'd think you could also grow a photoperiodic plant or two, with a climate like that.



.



Well, cannabis IS just a plant, after all. You should do well.



I've seen 8.3 to 8.5. At 8.0, back when I used General Hydroponics three-part Flora series, I often hit (or got very near) my pH target of 5.9 just from the nutrient mix, in the middle of flowering.




That's not "extremely" high total dissolved solid count, lol. But it is high. BtW, did you ever have your water tested to see what, exactly, was in it? "Cal/Mag" is not one element - it is two, calcium and magnesium. If you had high levels of calcium but not high levels of magnesium, then your plants might have benefited from a source of Mg to keep the ratio correct (or, alternatively, just to add enough in the first place, if your nutrient regime did not have an adequate amount). Epsom salt, for example, has Mg but no Ca.

Also, not all Ca in tap water comes out in a form that plants can easily use. It is possible to have high levels of the stuff and still end up with a deficiency, in practice.

Are there any tips or tricks that I can use to avoid hand watering and constantly adjusting the pH? It's just a top down watering system with a vortex style spray nozzle.

<SHRUGS> If you KNOW that your water's pH is consistent, and you KNOW that you'll want to end up with the same pH of said water every time you water your plants (assuming that the pH of the soil does not naturally change over time as the plants growing in it consume certain elements that have combined with everything else to cause the soil to be at whatever pH it is at any one time, et cetera)... Then you could always set up some kind of reservoir, preferably with an aeration device (not a lot of money for that), and buy a pH-adjusting/dosing device. I've even seen pH monitor / controller combinations (two separate devices, but they work together) from Milwaukee that will use the pH monitor's reading to "know" when to dose the solution (in this case, water). And I assume that Milwaukee Instruments isn't the only company that makes the things. The device I saw only dosed with one thing, though - so the user could set it to adjust pH up or down (by choice of adjuster, and flipping a switch on the device) - but not both.

I expect that the (level of) importance of constantly monitoring and adjusting one's water pH is significantly less when growing outdoors than inside, in a hydroponic setup. Again, that assumes a properly-buffered, healthy soil - and, for that matter, that one is growing either directly in the ground or in really large containers where there is an actual biosphere... thing going on, with all the microbial life/etc. that such a setup provides (and provides for - which small containers probably do not). But my outdoor cannabis-growing experience is both limited and stretched out over many years - so I am definitely not any kind of expert, and my advice should not be taken as expert advice. For that matter, I don't consider myself an expert at anything, really, lol, and so you should assume there's an "IMHO" attached to the majority of my words, even if I do not type it. Unless I add sources - and then... question the sources. Question everything in life, actually. You may find that advice you have been given and/or things you have read turned out to be wrong. And even if this does not end up being the case, the process tends to help one learn more than just blindly following someone's "how-to" ever will.

Btw, lol: Hi, Im TorturedSoul. I ramble. . . .[/QUOTE]


Hi TorturedSoul!

Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. In reading the articles you linked, one of them referenced the use of peat moss which sounded really reasonable so I think I might start there.

Since I'm too noobish to figure out how to do official quotes in the forum. I'll do my best to reply to some of your comments.

I'd think you could also grow a photoperiodic plant or two, with a climate like that.

Absolutely! Except that I need the shorter height of the autos for stealth mode. My privacy fence is a 6 footer ha ha.

In regards to Calcium and Magnesium, my local utility posts the mineral content and I believe I have more than enough of both present. I've done 4 indoor hydro grows now and have never had a deficiency or nutrient lockout of any kind thankfully.

I also think I'll take the same principal as I did growing in Coco and make sure and test the drain to waste portion. Between the FF OF and a few extra amendments I can make, I might not have as big of a problem as I think I might. Testing the waste water might help guide me some. You mentioned the term "buffered" and that's what I need to focus on.

Lastly, I really appreciate your humility and final advice. In the end, it's one of the things I like about growing cannabis. I'm on about month 14 and man has it been a journey. I've made so many mistakes and learned so much but growing cannabis really appeals to my kind of "mad scientist" mentality in me. I find it rewarding and quite fun. Of course, the end result ain't bad either ha ha.

Thank you once again for all the helpful comments and advice! Much appreciated! Peace!

 

[TorturedSoul]

In kind of a hurry right now, but:

You are very kind, lol.

No problem, I figured out which words in your post were mine .

My brother once grew a plant in his OL's vegetable garden, and before she found out and freaked (worried about the next door neighbors 15' away smelling it, not the concept), it had grown quite a bit - but he'd kept staking it down, maximum height was probably 14" to 18". But I understand stealth (and the need for same).

Take care, and stay cool.