What happened to the roots?
- Thread starter AuntieKush
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Not sure what happened here, specifically AuntieK, but just a tip...During the veg period, you want to make sure to let the containers get fairly dry before you re-water/feed (make the roots search for the water!). Feeling the weight of the container is a good way to tell (try not to let them wilt, but if you see lower fan leaves drooping, it's another good sign to water ASAP!). Assuming they're photos, let them get good & root-bound in a smaller container before up-potting. I hope that helps!
K
K
Yo Krip I think that is coco so even though you are right as I explain below....not really.
AuntieK ...Is that Coco? If so then the explanation above is true and likely the problem but sort of moot.
Those roots look very much undersized but they look fine.
My understanding is in Coco you have to water daily and have to manually manage the root stress. In coco you can't just look at the plant to know when to water. So you can't grow out the roots the same way. I wouldn't know. I honestly have no idea why people use coco. And don't try to convince me I can beat coco hands down. If you can grow in soil like me then try coco and see if it is faster. There is nothing special about it. It is missing a number of important things that make growing faster smoother easier and better. You have to take care of all that yourself...good luck. It is very easy. Pot heads can do it. It is also the most difficult way to grow weed.
Anyway...in soil... that is sound advice. I let the leaves droop before I water to accelerate the growth of the plant. Extra watering only slows the growth you really want. I don't even waste time lifting pots. It is not necessary to water before they droop. It is better to wait. You do you.
Look this up...Scientists do not know the exact numbers. But the vast majority...almost all of the water consumed is used only for transportation via Transpiration. That is right. Some scientists think 99% or higher of water consumed is released through the leaves. It is well understood that at least 95% of the water consumed is evaporated out of the leaves as it is only used for transportation. The water is not needed...it can go a few hours to a day or even 3 and be fine.
So... plants grow what they need. They have a mission and only do what they need to to get to the next stage and get to breeding. If they find a way to skip a step and move on the will.
If you water a lot then the plant doesn't need to grow big fat roots to go hunting for water. If you over water it can grow very big on a small root ball. Then you get small flowers. There are actually much worse problems from over watering.
Most people fail to appreciate what Veg is for. Most people only appreciate what they see.
The most important part of Veg is creating a monster root ball. Everything that really matters is under the soil and you can't see it. With a healthy monster root ball you can whack back 80% of the plant going into bloom and get a monster in bloom still. The final flowers depend on the size of the root ball and how fast you allow it to grow.
If you do things to make it easy on the plant it is weak. This is the exact same principal as LST. If we stress the roots slightly we get monster roots. If you baby them they are babies and cry a lot.
But if you are in coco...You are in charge of managing root stress and doing this all correctly...as I understand it.
AuntieK ...Is that Coco? If so then the explanation above is true and likely the problem but sort of moot.
Those roots look very much undersized but they look fine.
My understanding is in Coco you have to water daily and have to manually manage the root stress. In coco you can't just look at the plant to know when to water. So you can't grow out the roots the same way. I wouldn't know. I honestly have no idea why people use coco. And don't try to convince me I can beat coco hands down. If you can grow in soil like me then try coco and see if it is faster. There is nothing special about it. It is missing a number of important things that make growing faster smoother easier and better. You have to take care of all that yourself...good luck. It is very easy. Pot heads can do it. It is also the most difficult way to grow weed.
Anyway...in soil... that is sound advice. I let the leaves droop before I water to accelerate the growth of the plant. Extra watering only slows the growth you really want. I don't even waste time lifting pots. It is not necessary to water before they droop. It is better to wait. You do you.
Look this up...Scientists do not know the exact numbers. But the vast majority...almost all of the water consumed is used only for transportation via Transpiration. That is right. Some scientists think 99% or higher of water consumed is released through the leaves. It is well understood that at least 95% of the water consumed is evaporated out of the leaves as it is only used for transportation. The water is not needed...it can go a few hours to a day or even 3 and be fine.
So... plants grow what they need. They have a mission and only do what they need to to get to the next stage and get to breeding. If they find a way to skip a step and move on the will.
If you water a lot then the plant doesn't need to grow big fat roots to go hunting for water. If you over water it can grow very big on a small root ball. Then you get small flowers. There are actually much worse problems from over watering.
Most people fail to appreciate what Veg is for. Most people only appreciate what they see.
The most important part of Veg is creating a monster root ball. Everything that really matters is under the soil and you can't see it. With a healthy monster root ball you can whack back 80% of the plant going into bloom and get a monster in bloom still. The final flowers depend on the size of the root ball and how fast you allow it to grow.
If you do things to make it easy on the plant it is weak. This is the exact same principal as LST. If we stress the roots slightly we get monster roots. If you baby them they are babies and cry a lot.
But if you are in coco...You are in charge of managing root stress and doing this all correctly...as I understand it.
I pulled these males on day 48. Another cool thing to know about roots is ...what are they in ... if you look close...I am using Subcools layered method there. If you zoom in you can see the black compost and what it does to the roots in super rich mediums. Fatty monsters as compared to the topsoil.
Anywho...there bees a lot to know bout dem rootz
VI's - Subcool Based - 2 Worm - Multi-Strain - Mother Hunt - 2016
Anywho...there bees a lot to know bout dem rootz
VI's - Subcool Based - 2 Worm - Multi-Strain - Mother Hunt - 2016
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- #5
AuntieKush
Active Member
Not sure what happened here, specifically AuntieK, but just a tip...During the veg period, you want to make sure to let the containers get fairly dry before you re-water/feed (make the roots search for the water!). Feeling the weight of the container is a good way to tell (try not to let them wilt, but if you see lower fan leaves drooping, it's another good sign to water ASAP!). Assuming they're photos, let them get good & root-bound in a smaller container before up-potting. I hope that helps!
K
great advise I will try this next time aroundNot sure what happened here, specifically AuntieK, but just a tip...During the veg period, you want to make sure to let the containers get fairly dry before you re-water/feed (make the roots search for the water!). Feeling the weight of the container is a good way to tell (try not to let them wilt, but if you see lower fan leaves drooping, it's another good sign to water ASAP!). Assuming they're photos, let them get good & root-bound in a smaller container before up-potting. I hope that helps!
K
- Thread starter
- #6
AuntieKush
Active Member
Yes it is coco. Good to know the roots are fine but would do better with larger root ball. I do not water everyday. At most I water once a week. I have a plant with less soil to give me a heads up that the others will need water soon. I will do a test with soil next time. I am testing rock wool as well. How long do I have to water after the leaves droop before doing any damage? Thanks for explaining the veg process. I was transplanting as soon as I had the room open to transplant.
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- #7
AuntieKush
Active Member
Thanks for the pics good to see. Do you have your own worm farm?
I have recovered many days later without issue. The thing is the questions is incomplete.
A sprout that has a 5 roots in total of 5 10 inches can't go very long. Big ol plants with monster rootballs can go a good while. Days...it depends on how dry the environment is, how much air is moving, how hot is it. Is it in a humid rain forest like environment and it can reverse transpire?
Also...Think about curing. It takes forever to get the water out of the stalks right? Ever wonder why...?
Yup this is why...this is natures way of protecting against drought. And plants can go a long time without rain.
But the process inherently prevents issue.
I am going to skip the transplanting debate as soil people will fight forever on this. Just go do side by sides and get back to me.
I put my seeds not in paper towels but usually I plant them right in the final pot. I sok them and next day I put them in soil like nature and all other plants farmers do.
Sometimes I plant them in small pots to begin with but usually not. Now... rule of thumb is 1 gallon per month. So never plant in less than a 5 gallon pot. Again you can start it in a 2 and then transplant a week later and waste your time.
So I can't remember I think these are like 10 gallon pots I used but the time it takes for these girls to show they are thirsty is long enough in there ...they have already grown huge roots. By the time they show there is no problem even the first time.
These ones were transplanted once to show how. The 2 on the left were stunted clones that is why they are bigger. Started bloom day 42 from seed.
Here is a feed schedule I documented and you see I start by watering once every 2 weeks and progress slowly to twice a week in heavy bloom. But only when they ask for it until we are in bloom.
VI's - Subcool Based - 2 Worm - Multi-Strain - Mother Hunt - 2016
A sprout that has a 5 roots in total of 5 10 inches can't go very long. Big ol plants with monster rootballs can go a good while. Days...it depends on how dry the environment is, how much air is moving, how hot is it. Is it in a humid rain forest like environment and it can reverse transpire?
Also...Think about curing. It takes forever to get the water out of the stalks right? Ever wonder why...?
Yup this is why...this is natures way of protecting against drought. And plants can go a long time without rain.
But the process inherently prevents issue.
I am going to skip the transplanting debate as soil people will fight forever on this. Just go do side by sides and get back to me.
I put my seeds not in paper towels but usually I plant them right in the final pot. I sok them and next day I put them in soil like nature and all other plants farmers do.
Sometimes I plant them in small pots to begin with but usually not. Now... rule of thumb is 1 gallon per month. So never plant in less than a 5 gallon pot. Again you can start it in a 2 and then transplant a week later and waste your time.
So I can't remember I think these are like 10 gallon pots I used but the time it takes for these girls to show they are thirsty is long enough in there ...they have already grown huge roots. By the time they show there is no problem even the first time.
These ones were transplanted once to show how. The 2 on the left were stunted clones that is why they are bigger. Started bloom day 42 from seed.
Here is a feed schedule I documented and you see I start by watering once every 2 weeks and progress slowly to twice a week in heavy bloom. But only when they ask for it until we are in bloom.
VI's - Subcool Based - 2 Worm - Multi-Strain - Mother Hunt - 2016
And the worm thing is something everyone used to do back in the day that people these days think is crazy...But it is the best way to maintain a pile.
I don't know any big time growers that aren't at least buying compost if not making their own. All other methods can't be used in scale. Hydro starts to be not worth real fast. Doing a few hundred plants at a time you have to do it the natural way.
Kids these days don't believe in science and want magic bottles with fancy propaganda to make their plants big.
I don't know any big time growers that aren't at least buying compost if not making their own. All other methods can't be used in scale. Hydro starts to be not worth real fast. Doing a few hundred plants at a time you have to do it the natural way.
Kids these days don't believe in science and want magic bottles with fancy propaganda to make their plants big.
Pure coconut coir? That, to me, would be a hydroponic medium and I'd never let it entirely dry out. But I am about as far from a "coco expert" as anyone who has ever used the stuff could be.
YES!!! Pure coco is hydro and you should NOT let the roots dry out! I INCORRECTLY assumed it was soil!
Because cell walls exist, lol? One of their purposes is to keep a certain level of moisture within the cells. I suppose that the structures are not completely destroyed by that point and, therefore, might still be performing this task at that late stage? Pure guesswork on my part, though.
EDIT: I'm not sure whether it's a brainstorm or a brain fart, but: Ever wonder how it would affect the drying time if, for your very last watering, you watered them with a saltwater brine? Would that damage the cell walls and enable the moisture to leave faster?
By the way, good explanations in your posts in this thread
.That seems to make sense to me on the one hand. However... I haven't perused General Hydroponics' website much since that company got bought by Scotts Miracle-Gro's Hawthorne Group shell company - but the last time I did, I saw an image of a 275-gallon (pallet-sized) tank of one of their three-part Flora series components. One assumes that someone is still using the stuff in wholesale lots. Years ago, I grew almost exclusively with GH products. I do not recall what my price per gram averaged, but it was (IMHO) pretty cheap - and the largest size I ever purchased was their 2.5-gallon one. Generally, it was the gallon jugs.
I'd think that - to a large extent, at least - significantly ramping up in scale would bring down one's nutrient costs. As in, cost per dose per plant would decrease. If it goes UP... the grower is doing something wrong, lol.
For that matter, as far as I am aware, there are still large-scale hydroponic non-"organic" tomato grows occurring. I've read that the legalization(+/-) of cannabis in some areas, combined with everyone and their brother trying to jump on the cannabis-growing bandwagon has caused some significant decreases in the selling price - but it still costs more than tomatoes, yeah?
"Pennies per gallon" becomes a significant expense when the gallons are numbered by the thousand, sure. But it's just an expense - and profits come with expenses.
And there might be a chance to save on expenses when going that route. Labor costs money, too - and a large outfit can save on labor by going with automatic nutrient mixers and pH adjusting/monitoring equipment. Still need troubleshooters - and plumbers, lol - I suppose, but less "shovel work," probably. The entity loses the chance to advertise that "all our bud is organically grown by hand with love" and all that, of course - but not everyone considers that to be a show-stopper.
There are many sizes of growers.
Hydro is awesome for getting a lot out of a small space period. I don't think it can be beat or has been show to be beaten.
When space is not an issue...like lets say you can grow outdoors in a field. The game completely changes. What matters is totally different.
I know a guy has has a massive Flood n Drain that has a 7 ft tall vortex brewer which is constantly going and a regular water res and it cycles between them and that hydro is massive. But nothing like my neighbor. He has a farm out in central Oregon in the desert. He has a few Pole barns that are the size of football fields. I think he has 5 now. Some bigger some a bit smaller but all massive and around that size. He has compost brought in by the truckload.
Just down the road this guy bought this lot and put a box right out front about 50ft from the street. It is only about 40 ft long and has massive generators and AC ...very humorous. I am gonna take a picture for ya next time I drive by.
People do it all sorts of ways.
So this guy I know with more plants then you can walk around and see regularly has all this help. And it all comes down to time per plant. How many guys can you trust and how many will actually work.
You have to run around and spray insecticide and bla bla bla. Keeping the medium mang. down to basically watering means you can run around and deal with the pests and other problems.
I was in Nappa valley in 97 on a medical farm that was on a hill side. They ripped out the grapes and it was impressive. I have seen bigger now but this thing blew me away. It was about the size of 3 football fields of weed...all kinds of strains. all female clones know good stuff all in bloom all amazing outdoor in the ground. Water feed from a rain feed res at the bottom of the hill. Each plant grown in a hole dug out by an excavator 4x4x4 and filled with good organics and more.
I grown in orange buckets from the depot too.
Each way has its advantages and issues.
(I just got my computer back and have a keyboard...
)
Hydro is awesome for getting a lot out of a small space period. I don't think it can be beat or has been show to be beaten.
When space is not an issue...like lets say you can grow outdoors in a field. The game completely changes. What matters is totally different.
I know a guy has has a massive Flood n Drain that has a 7 ft tall vortex brewer which is constantly going and a regular water res and it cycles between them and that hydro is massive. But nothing like my neighbor. He has a farm out in central Oregon in the desert. He has a few Pole barns that are the size of football fields. I think he has 5 now. Some bigger some a bit smaller but all massive and around that size. He has compost brought in by the truckload.
Just down the road this guy bought this lot and put a box right out front about 50ft from the street. It is only about 40 ft long and has massive generators and AC ...very humorous. I am gonna take a picture for ya next time I drive by.
People do it all sorts of ways.
So this guy I know with more plants then you can walk around and see regularly has all this help. And it all comes down to time per plant. How many guys can you trust and how many will actually work.
You have to run around and spray insecticide and bla bla bla. Keeping the medium mang. down to basically watering means you can run around and deal with the pests and other problems.
I was in Nappa valley in 97 on a medical farm that was on a hill side. They ripped out the grapes and it was impressive. I have seen bigger now but this thing blew me away. It was about the size of 3 football fields of weed...all kinds of strains. all female clones know good stuff all in bloom all amazing outdoor in the ground. Water feed from a rain feed res at the bottom of the hill. Each plant grown in a hole dug out by an excavator 4x4x4 and filled with good organics and more.
I grown in orange buckets from the depot too.
Each way has its advantages and issues.
(I just got my computer back and have a keyboard...
)When your foot print out stretches a building then you think differently.
Personally I don't do that anymore I just go real small and easy for me. But I might build a Pole barn in a few years.
Issue is Oregon is overwhelmed with growers. More than 20k legal medical growers that are basically unregulated and can flood the market as they want and like 2k recreational growers. The state allows 4k I think... and at the 2k many can't make enough money and many are going out of business. It isn't worth it here for most because it is so cheap.
So even if I wanted to do it again it isn't worth it. I will just grow my own for now.
Issue is Oregon is overwhelmed with growers. More than 20k legal medical growers that are basically unregulated and can flood the market as they want and like 2k recreational growers. The state allows 4k I think... and at the 2k many can't make enough money and many are going out of business. It isn't worth it here for most because it is so cheap.
So even if I wanted to do it again it isn't worth it. I will just grow my own for now.
So on Sept 10th this year my friend is complaining, telling me how all the outdoor grows in central Oregon are undersized this year. It isn't just him it is everyone. He also has the added issue of being in pots. He quickly snaps this pic of the end of one barn. On the right there you see a vent fan. Then not another till the end. He has like 8 of those along each wall. So that is like 1/7th of the barn.
He has a number of these barns. The leg work to maintain hydro systems at his level is not worth it. Constantly bringing in materials...or in spring you make up good soil and just water. You can really go big that way. If space is not an issue then things change.
He has a number of these barns. The leg work to maintain hydro systems at his level is not worth it. Constantly bringing in materials...or in spring you make up good soil and just water. You can really go big that way. If space is not an issue then things change.
I suspect your friend would die rich if he started supplying "black market" sellers in other states. And I suspect... that some people are already doing that. Of course, then it becomes like any other criminal activity in that you've got to explain where the bulk of your (highly visible) product has disappeared to, lol, and where your (not always easy to hide) profits are coming from. But if I was still dealing, I could sell top-shelf bud and extracts of same all day long IF I could substantially undercut the local going rate. And that seems to be $100 per quarter-ounce, $320 to $400 per lid (depending on discount), and $900 to $1,000 per quarter-pound. By "all day long," I'm only talking about a couple pounds per week - but that'd take one, maybe two telephone calls, lol, and I'm just ONE guy.
Admittedly, when I was thinking of large-scale grows, I was thinking about warehouses - not acres of land outdoors. Still, though..
This is a lettuce grow, so the plants are, of course, much smaller. However, it is still a large operation, indoors, and this could work for cannabis grows, too (with proper plant stabilization, I suppose):
It's a short video. To do the same with cannabis plants, one would have to raise the roof (so to speak) a good bit, due to the height of cannabis plants. But I like the "no pesticides or herbicides" angle. And there's something to what the guy said when he mentioned 70% of our fresh water contamination coming from agriculture, and 70% of our freshwater usage going towards it. A rebuttal to the "organic" crowd, perhaps? Anyway, yeah, lettuce. Lower profit margins than with cannabis, I'm guessing. There was a mention of an upcoming new building that should be capable of producing a million pounds of greens per year.
And here is a 120-acre ("under glass") hydroponic setup. Supposed to be the most advanced such facility on the planet. This one is producing tomatoes. Probably easier to grow cannabis like this than in the previous video's setup.
I suddenly find myself wondering why large-scale food-crop producers are able to make a profit on a lower cost product when some cannabis farmers are finding themselves unable to feed themselves in their chosen line of work. Is it because the demand for such food-crop products is exponentially higher, do you think? Or because there is far less regulation with farmers growing food (there must still be some, I suppose)? The government telling producers that they can get THIS big... but no bigger, which means that when their profit per unit becomes smaller, they cannot then scale up to keep making the same net profit through volume?
As far as I know, there is no regulated limit on the number of lettuce, tomato, et cetera growers. But there is generally a limit on how many people can grow cannabis (commercially) in any one area. Perhaps there need not be, lol, because it seems like capitalism is actually working for once - the market is determining how many producers there are via the age-old story of supply and demand.
IDK. I remember thinking, around the time that the second or third state enacted medicinal-use laws, that it'd be nice to go become a part of it - but then deciding that, by the time I managed to get my sh!t together and do so, the market could well be semi-saturated. That there'd be an awful lot of people who'd end up trying to compete solely on price, and that I'd need to find myself a niche market for best long-term results. That appears to have finally happened in some areas. Is there much in the way of "boutique grows" in your region?
Never experienced either of those inside a building . I have read that the Boeing Everett Factory in Everett, WA, has its own clouds - and, occasionally, rain! - inside. But that building is 472,000,000 cubic feet in volume, lol (they build jumbo jets in there, and quite a few at one time).
Admittedly, when I was thinking of large-scale grows, I was thinking about warehouses - not acres of land outdoors. Still, though..
This is a lettuce grow, so the plants are, of course, much smaller. However, it is still a large operation, indoors, and this could work for cannabis grows, too (with proper plant stabilization, I suppose):
It's a short video. To do the same with cannabis plants, one would have to raise the roof (so to speak) a good bit, due to the height of cannabis plants. But I like the "no pesticides or herbicides" angle. And there's something to what the guy said when he mentioned 70% of our fresh water contamination coming from agriculture, and 70% of our freshwater usage going towards it. A rebuttal to the "organic" crowd, perhaps? Anyway, yeah, lettuce. Lower profit margins than with cannabis, I'm guessing. There was a mention of an upcoming new building that should be capable of producing a million pounds of greens per year.
And here is a 120-acre ("under glass") hydroponic setup. Supposed to be the most advanced such facility on the planet. This one is producing tomatoes. Probably easier to grow cannabis like this than in the previous video's setup.
I suddenly find myself wondering why large-scale food-crop producers are able to make a profit on a lower cost product when some cannabis farmers are finding themselves unable to feed themselves in their chosen line of work. Is it because the demand for such food-crop products is exponentially higher, do you think? Or because there is far less regulation with farmers growing food (there must still be some, I suppose)? The government telling producers that they can get THIS big... but no bigger, which means that when their profit per unit becomes smaller, they cannot then scale up to keep making the same net profit through volume?
As far as I know, there is no regulated limit on the number of lettuce, tomato, et cetera growers. But there is generally a limit on how many people can grow cannabis (commercially) in any one area. Perhaps there need not be, lol, because it seems like capitalism is actually working for once - the market is determining how many producers there are via the age-old story of supply and demand.
IDK. I remember thinking, around the time that the second or third state enacted medicinal-use laws, that it'd be nice to go become a part of it - but then deciding that, by the time I managed to get my sh!t together and do so, the market could well be semi-saturated. That there'd be an awful lot of people who'd end up trying to compete solely on price, and that I'd need to find myself a niche market for best long-term results. That appears to have finally happened in some areas. Is there much in the way of "boutique grows" in your region?
Never experienced either of those inside a building
. I have read that the Boeing Everett Factory in Everett, WA, has its own clouds - and, occasionally, rain! - inside. But that building is 472,000,000 cubic feet in volume, lol (they build jumbo jets in there, and quite a few at one time).That is why the 2k rec growers are having a hard time. They all have to have their own dispensaries. My buddy has one otherwise he can't move it fast enough. Drive around and around store to store and all they want is 20% or better THC and don't care about special stuff ... quality is all bla bla depends who you are talking to. So many things to try and dump yer weed. But the dispensaries can't stay full. If you can get a store yer good but if you are growing yer toast. most people tried to grow and dump on a dispensary and are having a hard time doing that. But if you got a store it is going bye bye...
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