Autos v. Photos - A 5x5 No Rules Fight for Yield: A Jon & NickHardy Gig

[Jon]

Hey @CaptainLucky - don’t feel bad man, I haven’t gotten around much lately either. But to answer your question, I’m on 20/4 to the end. I went 24/0 to pistils.

How do you manage your light schedule @CaptainLucky ?

 

[CaptainLucky]

How do you manage your light schedule @CaptainLucky ?

I do 18/6 until the flip and then 12/12. But seedlings I’ll do 24/7 for the first couple of weeks. CL

 

[Jon]

That's certainly not what I'm saying. Brix is a tool, much like measuring pH or ppm's for some people, neither of which I use. Doesn't mean they're useless, just that I don't use them. Others think they're essential inputs for how they like to grow.

My point was that there are many ways to successfully grow this plant and just because some other group uses or doesn't use it, pro growers or not, doesn't mean it's not useful info for some.

I find the term “pro grower” a bit misleading in any context. By pro growers we are mostly referring to those who grow for a living, yes? Great. I know several, we all do. But….are they better growers than the best growers here? The “non-pro growers?” Not in my opinion. I’d easily pick a select handful of growers here, just using the small group I interact with, that can stand toe to toe with any pro grower in the world. So does someone who does it for a living know more than “us?” Not necessarily.

Since you love the term so much Azi, there’s two cents from me. Lmao!

 

[Jon]

I do 18/6 until the flip and then 12/12. But seedlings I’ll do 24/7 for the first couple of weeks. CL

Oh yeah, photos. I used to do that with photos. Now I go 24/0 to 12/12. Thanks!

 

[Jon]

765 PPFD left middle. Right middle 685 or something. Anyway some people’s target right? Steady 50 DLI and 800 PPFD for flower.

Like seriously whats happened to me?! Its like when some superhero just at the end loses their superpower has to learn their humanity and win without the super power. Works in the movies kids but I’m fucked

Because at that low PPFD my Co2 is pointless. Bam!

I’ve already Whatsapped the light company in my most disappointed Chingliish by concern and worry and maybe they could alter the plan somewhat. Move it forwards perhaps?

Oh dear dear, dear!

OK - simple not easy to implement plan rejig the lights - I’m going to swap out this light to the other 5x5 and bring in the 315CMH and the @Mars Hydro FC4800 EVO from another grow we’re gonna harvest at the weekend.

That’ll tide me over and adds a bit pf jeopardy to the grow

Ha - that’s woken me up! Mixed 300L of two types of nutes today and personally fed - need to check - either 99 or 100 plants today.

Starting to feel it again.

765 PPFD pah!

Hmm…I would probably argue that for the stage your plants are at, you can easily get away with 765 for a couple weeks yet if you had to. But it sounds like soon you’ll have plenty of wattage. So have you discontinued the CO2 for now?

 

[CaptainLucky]

Oh yeah, photos. I used to do that with photos. Now I go 24/0 to 12/12. Thanks!

If I was to try auto’s again I’d prolly run them 24/7. CL

 

[Jon]

I just got a email from them saying they are having a webinar. I’ve been following them for a while now and they always have something interesting going on. CL

I’m almost ready to pull the trigger on the 800 watt bar light for a 5x5!

 

[NickHardy]

Hey Nick since I know how much you’re into lights. I was wondering if you ever heard of a company called Foshe? They claim they they’re the best in the business and improve your yields. They custom lighting for your business but I think they might be a bit pricey. CL

Yes through this guy @Jon - heard of him? Every Christmas, Birthday and lunch time he hopes, for

“knock, ring foshe through your door”

From Postman Pat the light fairy

But some/quite a few of the consumer brands are customers of the commercial manufacturers.

Beyond a point LED lighting is just commodity stuff. The brands just assemble the lights:

What they buy:

Diodes - no grow light company makes these

Drivers - no grow light manufacturer makes these Mars Hydro design them or have input into the design but LG Lighting make them

Those are the two biggest elements to a light. Wired with quality cabling and assembled with aluminium bars. That’s a light. Where they try and differentiate is with the number of diodes (but remember they’re buying off the open market for the drivers so there’s not that much difference in that and you can play around with the diode spacings or offsets or whatever and claim an improvement perhaps. Slightly better bin numbers on the diodes. Its impossible to differentiate until you’re running 20+ and fractions savings in electricity really matter.

So you’re looking for quality materials and workmanship for the cabling and bars and supports and stuff and great response time to a problem. Foshe are a rare ex Shenzhen manufacturer and will always cost more because China stupid.

Why did mine break? It was meant to be a 2 week lead time, MOQ is 20 and they were going to run mine through with another order. Next day - we have one! I think they gave me a cleaned up demo model. Hell it could even be the same one I was in multiple meetings with them that they demoed here

Not my sparkey this time!

Consumer lights I see some stuff with lenses on the diodes and stuff. Cool - and maybe they optimise for tents or something? But above 600w its just like buying a desktop PC if you remember such a thing. A bunch of components made by different companies assembled in China with a label slapped on the front - only way less components and therefore ways to differentiate.

#1Buy the safest light

#2 Buy the most robust light

#3 Buy the light with the most bang for your buck in terms of $/watts

There you got “LED Land” 101 with buyers advice!

Nick

 

[Wastei]

It’s not simply a matter of signal pathways and ions. Plant growth requires far more than nutrient A at time X. Especially natural plant growth.

There’s a reason your synthetically grown products never taste as good, or smell as good, or even have a remotely complex profile to them. There’s a reason synthetics produce massive quantities of homogeneous and underwhelming flower.

These are things institutions ignore because they’re inconvenient. They fly directly in the face of “an ion is an ion”. Which makes sense, I wouldn’t bite the hand that’s funding me either.

If all plants were grown equally, I wouldn’t be able to tell when someone hands me a synthetically grown joint. If all plants were equal I wouldn’t be able to tell that red tomato my neighbor grew that tastes like water was grown synthetically.

It has been shown that plants that are given carbon based nutrients used markedly lower metabolic energy to convert those nutrients into usable forms. Even “readily available” synthetics still need to be broken down inside the plant and said plant wastes a lot of energy doing so. Don’t even get me started on the fact that you’re pumping heavy metals directly into your flowers since cannabis is a hyper accumulator.

That aside, I would love to see you debate Brix on the Brix page. I’m not a believer in either direction and would love to see a healthy debate around it.

People I give my flower believe them to be grown in organics. With some basic flavour enhancers like aminos and organic sulfurs I dare anyone to tell the difference?

Funny how I've smelled flavourless and nasty products regardless of growing method? I don't think it's the method, it's how it's been implemented. Saying one method is better than the other is rather pointless since they both produce tasty buds if done correctly?

 

[Jon]

Skywalker Auto Backup

This girl is shaping up very nicely. Yesterday I finally found and gleefully destroyed the tiny green caterpillar type thing that was taking munches from my leaves here and there. Knew I had one, couldn’t find the damn thing. Tiny holes started showing up so I started looking. I must have brought it in from outside on my clothes or something. It’s interesting how similar in structure she is to the Skywalker photo I grew last time, as well as the organic one in the contest grow tent.

 

[Jon]

Yes through this guy @Jon - heard of him? Every Christmas, Birthday and lunch time he hopes, for


From Postman Pat the light fairy

But some/quite a few of the consumer brands are customers of the commercial manufacturers.

Beyond a point LED lighting is just commodity stuff. The brands just assemble the lights:

What they buy:

Diodes - no grow light company makes these

Drivers - no grow light manufacturer makes these Mars Hydro design them or have input into the design but LG Lighting make them

Those are the two biggest elements to a light. Wired with quality cabling and assembled with aluminium bars. That’s a light. Where they try and differentiate is with the number of diodes (but remember they’re buying off the open market for the drivers so there’s not that much difference in that and you can play around with the diode spacings or offsets or whatever and claim an improvement perhaps. Slightly better bin numbers on the diodes. Its impossible to differentiate until you’re running 20+ and fractions savings in electricity really matter.

So you’re looking for quality materials and workmanship for the cabling and bars and supports and stuff and great response time to a problem. Foshe are a rare ex Shenzhen manufacturer and will always cost more because China stupid.

Why did mine break? It was meant to be a 2 week lead time, MOQ is 20 and they were going to run mine through with another order. Next day - we have one! I think they gave me a cleaned up demo model. Hell it could even be the same one I was in multiple meetings with them that they demoed here

Not my sparker this time!

Consumer lights I see some stuff with lenses on the diodes and stuff. Cool - and maybe they optimise for tents or something? But above 600w its just like buying a desktop PC if you remember such a thing. A bunch of components made by different companies assembled in China with a label slapped on the front - only way less components and therefore ways to differentiate.

#1Buy the safest light

#2 Buy the most robust light

#3 Buy the light with the most bang for your buck in terms of $/watts

There you got LED Land 101 with buyers advice!

Nick

Allow me to correct you -

There you have Nick Hardy’s opinion. Not LED 101.

 

[Keffka]

People I give my flower believe them to be grown in organics. With some basic flavour enhancers like aminos and organic sulfurs I dare anyone to tell the difference.

Funny how I've smelled flavourless and nasty products regardless of growing method? I don't think it's the method, it's how it's been implemented. Saying one method is better than the other is rather pointless since they both produce tasty buds if done correctly?

So I will agree to an extent with that. Once upon a time, organic methods had a vastly superior profile to them. However, as we’ve come to understand better what is truly driving those differences, the distinction has become much more muddled. Now that we’ve been able to more accurately identify what is actually occurring, synthetics are beginning to be able to replicate that, adding amino acids and organic sulfurs being one of those replications.

I said this a while back and caught a lot of heat for it but I believe one day, synthetics will be able to produce organic quality at synthetic yields. I believe as we unravel the mystery’s of nature we will eventually be able to replicate her and her processes with extreme precision. I won’t get into why it’s taken us this long but I will say that, as long as we don’t blow each other up, I don’t see any reason we won’t be able to figure out exactly what is occurring

 

[Jon]

People I give my flower believe them to be grown in organics. With some basic flavour enhancers like aminos and organic sulfurs I dare anyone to tell the difference?

Funny how I've smelled flavourless and nasty products regardless of growing method? I don't think it's the method, it's how it's been implemented. Saying one method is better than the other is rather pointless since they both produce tasty buds if done correctly?

I have to interject despite being the least knowledgeable here. No, Wastei. Not true. Well grown organic destroys the best grown chem weed on every level, every time, regardless of strain. It’s not even close. I knew this as a smoker long before I became a grower. Now I’m even more certain.

Fwiw, my two cents.

 

[Jon]

I have to interject despite being the least knowledgeable here. No, Wastei. Not true. Well grown organic destroys the best grown chem weed on every level, every time, regardless of strain. It’s not even close. I knew this as a smoker long before I became a grower. Now I’m even more certain.

Fwiw, my two cents.

That is, if what you like is smoking the weed as it was intended to taste and affect you.

 

[Jon]

So I will agree to an extent with that. Once upon a time, organic methods had a vastly superior profile to them. However, as we’ve come to understand better what is truly driving those differences, the distinction has become much more muddled. Now that we’ve been able to more accurately identify what is actually occurring, synthetics are beginning to be able to replicate that, adding amino acids and organic sulfurs being one of those replications.

I said this a while back and caught a lot of heat for it but I believe one day, synthetics will be able to produce organic quality at synthetic yields. I believe as we unravel the mystery’s of nature we will eventually be able to replicate her and her processes with extreme precision. I won’t get into why it’s taken us this long but I will say that, as long as we don’t blow each other up, I don’t see any reason we won’t be able to figure out exactly what is occurring

I love that optimism. I hope you’re right. Cuz that will make ACTUAL organic weed worth WAY more cuz it will become a rarity! Lol.

 

[Roy Growin]

People I give my flower believe them to be grown in organics. With some basic flavour enhancers like aminos and organic sulfurs I dare anyone to tell the difference?

Funny how I've smelled flavourless and nasty products regardless of growing method? I don't think it's the method, it's how it's been implemented. Saying one method is better than the other is rather pointless since they both produce tasty buds if done correctly?

I usually put crappy bud mostly down to the dry/cure
Slow grown organic bud does seem to have a stronger/more broad profile but the difference is not huge

 

[Jon]

I usually put crappy bud mostly down to the dry/cure
Slow grown organic bud does seem to have a stronger/more broad profile but the difference is not huge

Betcha if you smoked my Yoda’s weed you’d think the difference was greater. He estimates the value of his myco colonies at 100K per greenhouse. He’s been cultivating the same base colony for 15 years. Four rows 75’ x 8’ per greenhouse (6) about three feet deep. It’s all he does. His entire focus is his soil. And his weed is the best I have ever smoked in 40 years of smoking. Just sayin. There organic. I grow that. Then there’s organic grown by people who know what they’re doing. That’s different. Imho.

 

[NickHardy]

Allow me to correct you -

There you have Nick Hardy’s opinion. Not LED 101.

If you can give me a way Foshe differentiate I’m open to it. But they use the same stuff

Bit this was explained to me by the biggest manufacturer of them all how the market is. The CMH/HPS manufacturer sees it the same way - they’re buying tech for their 1000w DE replacements - stuff can be snapped in on the same brackets as the old school ones. This stuff I learned from actually talking to the manufacturers of two companies that don’t sell consumer direct. They’re B2B

 

[Jon]

If you can give me a way Foshe differentiate I’m open to it. But they use the same stuff

Bit this was explained to me by the biggest manufacturer of them all how the market is. The CMH/HPS manufacturer sees it the same way - they’re buying tech for their 1000w DE replacements - stuff can be snapped in on the same brackets as the old school ones. This stuff I learned from actually talking to the manufacturers of two companies that don’t sell consumer direct. They’re B2B

Well, I can send you link after link to yet another 100,000 sq ft facility which has switched over to them. Including the largest dispensary in Michigan. I gotta figure there’s a reason. One might argue those are pro growers.

 

[Jon]

Well, I can send you link after link to yet another 100,000 sq ft facility which has switched over to them. Including the largest dispensary in Michigan. I gotta figure there’s a reason. One might argue those are pro growers.

Maybe their proprietary diode layout creates more penetration at higher ppfd? Every bit of data I can find says those using them increase their yields measurably.