Defoliation question

[Aweedtec]

I have read a LOT about this and still coming up with confusion again.

I hear, "Dont cut the canopy" and "Make sure you stay away from the canopy" and "Dont cut the fan leaves but cut the rest but stay under 25 percent"

My head spins from that.

I have figured out that it is quite possible three of my plants are blueberry pancakes. They are starting to look the same. The difference is one was severely stunted 4 times. The other had a fan blowing on it that tangled all the leaves up in the center to where it looked like lettuce.

Since its grown a bit the one that looked like lettuce on top has untangled. But here is the issue.

It appears to be the same strain as my largest plant now. However, because of the tangled leaves a the top light didnt get to all the center growth. So its now lower and under a leaf that is on the canopy. A few actually. But one in particular.

I will provide photos of course. In one you can see the growth in the middle. In the other you can see the leaf covering.
I pulled all the stems apart just a bit and they stay there but after a certain period they close back up.
Look at the photos to see what is underneath.. and then look at the photo of what it SHOULD look like if those leaves had not tangled...

Two photos are of the same plant and the third is the same strain and what it SHOULD look like.

The back right plant is the same strain as the front left. I believe. Because they are starting to look identical leaves. I could be wrong about that but even if I am, my question about cutting a leaf like that remains because its part of the canopy. They were planted 6 days apart.



Edit: pay no attention to the peg leg. lol. I was shot in the spine in 1996 and it atrophied my calf. My nickname was "the man with 81 ailments" with my last gf.

 

[Aweedtec]

And one last thing about defoliating. I was told that I can just cut off those fan leaves on the plant front right. They are a little papery. I believe when the plant was a bit under watered it utilized those leaves.

So, can I cut those off and will it hurt the plant?

I plan to 12/12 in 3 or 4 days. But I want to defoliate a bit first.

 

[Bill284]

And one last thing about defoliating. I was told that I can just cut off those fan leaves on the plant front right. They are a little papery. I believe when the plant was a bit under watered it utilized those leaves.

So, can I cut those off and will it hurt the plant?

I plan to 12/12 in 3 or 4 days. But I want to defoliate a bit first.

Good morning my friend lovely looking garden.
I tried several different defoliation methods over the years.
What I find works best for me is growing a big healthy girl in veg with lots of leaves.
3 weeks after flipping to flower when stretch has finished I clean out under the light line.
Other than that I don't remove anything.
I find the fan leaves provide power to the plant through photosynthesis, increasing bud size.
If a leaf dies I let it fall off, that's my defol technique.
But lots of people use it so maby one of those members might be more helpful.
Couple pics of the current crop.

17EE5441-41CA-481A-96A1-0CED32DB20A9.jpeg

• Bill284
• Oct 4, 2023

F05DF4B6-0F23-4F16-AB33-BC77EDC7421F.jpeg

• Bill284
• Oct 4, 2023

11D13626-AA0C-4CDB-8122-D71D99C1F933.jpeg

• Bill284
• Oct 4, 2023

6F54AADD-E197-48EC-9A64-38EEE5CBED4F.jpeg

• Bill284
• Oct 4, 2023
• 2

I concentrate on root growth to improve my harvest.
Big roots can support more vegetation I find.
Take care.




#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284

 

[SmokingWings]

I have read a LOT about this and still coming up with confusion again.

I hear, "Dont cut the canopy" and "Make sure you stay away from the canopy" and "Dont cut the fan leaves but cut the rest but stay under 25 percent"

My head spins from that.

Which leaves to cut off and when is a bit of a science, a bit of an art, and a lot of personal choice.

There is a lot to be said for doing as little as possible at this time because these are among your first plants and as they grow you get experience.

Figure out what a canopy is on plants in general and what is a forest canopy. Examples and definitions of these would be easy to find with basic web searches. Apply that info to your plants as it will help to see their canopy and the under-growth below the canopy.

Another is that some growers who have strict schedules of when and where for "defoliation" might also be doing minor leaf removal at other times and calling that "training". They can be training to get selected parts of the plant to grow higher or wider and they bend or remove stems and leaves to get what they want but since they are training they do not see is as defoliating.

Move the plants around and take one photo of each from the side. Looking at them as individual plants can help figure out what needs some trimming, etc. Right now we are looking at four healthy plants that have grown large and are starting to crowd each other.

 

[Aweedtec]

Which leaves to cut off and when is a bit of a science, a bit of an art, and a lot of personal choice.

There is a lot to be said for doing as little as possible at this time because these are among your first plants and as they grow you get experience.

Figure out what a canopy is on plants in general and what is a forest canopy. Examples and definitions of these would be easy to find with basic web searches. Apply that info to your plants as it will help to see their canopy and the under-growth below the canopy.

Another is that some growers who have strict schedules of when and where for "defoliation" might also be doing minor leaf removal at other times and calling that "training". They can be training to get selected parts of the plant to grow higher or wider and they bend or remove stems and leaves to get what they want but since they are training they do not see is as defoliating.

Move the plants around and take one photo of each from the side. Looking at them as individual plants can help figure out what needs some trimming, etc. Right now we are looking at four healthy plants that have grown large and are starting to crowd each other.

I just purchased another light. Same one. I'm too invested now to back off or know I am cheaping out and not fix that.

Really wish I would have waited another day before switching the light so I could defoliate properly.

I found a great video on it. Brief and to the point. I'd post it but I dont know the rules on posting links here to you tube and other places.
Its a really precise video on it.

I am still having the yellow tips issue on one plant. Bugs me. But though it may be extending it could be that it needs more fertilizer because I've given them exactly what a guy who only uses 5 things to grow and its all organic. I dont know the rules on saying his name and I believe he sells to dispensaries. Where i got the Dr Earth organic fert suggestion from.
I just didnt use worm castings and coco coir like he suggested. But I did use the Dr Earth for vegging and I switched my lights but have yet to add the Dr Earth Bloom fert because a big huge job came in and made it so I cant even see the plants during the day or night now because when I leave they are in the dark and when I get home they are in the dark. 12 hours 8pm to 8am. So I will have to have photos sent to me now.

Last night I messed up the light schedule and set the damned thing to 22 instead of 20. 10 instead of 8 like an idiot.

Its corrected now.

 

[Hafta]

I just purchased another light. Same one. I'm too invested now to back off or know I am cheaping out and not fix that.

Really wish I would have waited another day before switching the light so I could defoliate properly.

I found a great video on it. Brief and to the point. I'd post it but I dont know the rules on posting links here to you tube and other places.
Its a really precise video on it.

I am still having the yellow tips issue on one plant. Bugs me. But though it may be extending it could be that it needs more fertilizer because I've given them exactly what a guy who only uses 5 things to grow and its all organic. I dont know the rules on saying his name and I believe he sells to dispensaries. Where i got the Dr Earth organic fert suggestion from.
I just didnt use worm castings and coco coir like he suggested. But I did use the Dr Earth for vegging and I switched my lights but have yet to add the Dr Earth Bloom fert because a big huge job came in and made it so I cant even see the plants during the day or night now because when I leave they are in the dark and when I get home they are in the dark. 12 hours 8pm to 8am. So I will have to have photos sent to me now.

Last night I messed up the light schedule and set the damned thing to 22 instead of 20. 10 instead of 8 like an idiot.

Its corrected now.

@Aweedtec
As you can see there are a wide variety of opinions about defoliation, nearly all of them will work because this is a very resilient plant. I will offer mine. Click on the " skirted CST " link in my signature and read the next 6 or 8 posts.
Basically, I remove leaves daily through the fifth week of flower, almost entirely from the canopy (way different from most growers).
The result is the Plant of the Month photo in my avatar. I grow in a 2' x 3' cabinet and yield an average of 300 grams per plant. I grow one plant at a time.

 

[Aweedtec]

Good morning my friend lovely looking garden.
I tried several different defoliation methods over the years.
What I find works best for me is growing a big healthy girl in veg with lots of leaves.
3 weeks after flipping to flower when stretch has finished I clean out under the light line.
Other than that I don't remove anything.
I find the fan leaves provide power to the plant through photosynthesis, increasing bud size.
If a leaf dies I let it fall off, that's my defol technique.
But lots of people use it so maby one of those members might be more helpful.
Couple pics of the current crop.

17EE5441-41CA-481A-96A1-0CED32DB20A9.jpeg

• Bill284
• Oct 4, 2023

F05DF4B6-0F23-4F16-AB33-BC77EDC7421F.jpeg

• Bill284
• Oct 4, 2023

11D13626-AA0C-4CDB-8122-D71D99C1F933.jpeg

• Bill284
• Oct 4, 2023

6F54AADD-E197-48EC-9A64-38EEE5CBED4F.jpeg

• Bill284
• Oct 4, 2023
• 2

I concentrate on root growth to improve my harvest.
Big roots can support more vegetation I find.
Take care.




#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284

It says I dont have the necessary permissions to see those photos. lol
I guess I could burn my eyes. Can I borrow your sun glasses?

Funny thing about root growth. About a week and a half ago a friend came over to see my plants.
She grew 17 plants and they were all very nice. Some over and just about 7 foot tall with very long colas.

She would take her entire hand and jam it in my plants soil and flip it. Well, I went back just to add some bloom fertilizer. I wanted to pull out some soil about 2 inches on the top and then add new soil with a good dose of fertilizer for blooming mixed in.
I had to use a spoon because my hands are way to big to get under the branches which grew low on the bucket but stretched all the way out and up(its 36 inches in diameter today). So when I scraped the top of the soil there were all these little spider web like roots going across the top of the soil that I know could not have been there a week and a half ago because she pretty much tilled the first 4 inches on top.

Where do these types of roots come from? The bottom? And do they matter being that close to the surface?

It is for sure odd. But this entire process has had oddities non stop.

 

[Bill284]

It says I dont have the necessary permissions to see those photos. lol
I guess I could burn my eyes. Can I borrow your sun glasses?

Funny thing about root growth. About a week and a half ago a friend came over to see my plants.
She grew 17 plants and they were all very nice. Some over and just about 7 foot tall with very long colas.

She would take her entire hand and jam it in my plants soil and flip it. Well, I went back just to add some bloom fertilizer. I wanted to pull out some soil about 2 inches on the top and then add new soil with a good dose of fertilizer for blooming mixed in.
I had to use a spoon because my hands are way to big to get under the branches which grew low on the bucket but stretched all the way out and up(its 36 inches in diameter today). So when I scraped the top of the soil there were all these little spider web like roots going across the top of the soil that I know could not have been there a week and a half ago because she pretty much tilled the first 4 inches on top.

Where do these types of roots come from? The bottom? And do they matter being that close to the surface?

It is for sure odd. But this entire process has had oddities non stop.

Good morning.
Not sure why the pics don't show, I'll try again.
But those roots need to be left alone.
The main tap root shoots straight down.
Sending out branches.
Those branches shoot out a web of hair size roots to pick up moisture and nutrients.
Disturbing them interrupts her ability to feed.
Couldn't find a decent pic but here is one.

Those hairs go everywhere.

D56D7F93-7A0B-42B8-BF7F-F2A990665D3A.png

• Bill284
• Sep 26, 2023
• #@herbies seeds

@Bill284 Method
Green House

5D5BFEF5-3C52-49C6-9B20-A9298D7C0714.jpeg

• Bill284
• Aug 24, 2023
• bill284 method herbies seeds

VIVOHUT 8/23/23. Green House
#9 @Herbies Seeds Apple Betty Apple 1/23/23

4BF58BFD-E41B-4844-B2A0-94500E25D700.jpeg

• Bill284
• Aug 25, 2023
• bill284 method northatlanticseedco

VIVOHUT 8/23/23 Green House
@NorthAtlanticSeedCo.
Spanish Moon 1/6/23...

8093F3D4-73EA-4402-B446-1E41946D2C5F.jpeg

• Bill284
• Aug 24, 2023
• bill284 method herbies seeds

VIVOHUT 8/23/23 Green House
#9 @Herbies Seeds Apple Betty 1/23/23...

DC5AE616-8481-48F4-A7D3-F2B0596518D9.jpeg

• Bill284
• Aug 24, 2023
• 2
• herbies seeds

VIVOHUT 8/23/23
#9 @Herbies Seeds Apple Betty 1/23/23 Stump. 25 Gallon Bag

 

[SmokingWings]

kalchimiaweb cannabis roots

Funny thing about root growth. About a week and a half ago a friend came over to see my plants.
She grew 17 plants and they were all very nice. Some over and just about 7 foot tall with very long colas.

She would take her entire hand and jam it in my plants soil and flip it. Well, I went back just to add some bloom fertilizer. I wanted to pull out some soil about 2 inches on the top and then add new soil with a good dose of fertilizer for blooming mixed in.
I had to use a spoon because my hands are way to big to get under the branches which grew low on the bucket but stretched all the way out and up(its 36 inches in diameter today). So when I scraped the top of the soil there were all these little spider web like roots going across the top of the soil that I know could not have been there a week and a half ago because she pretty much tilled the first 4 inches on top.

Where do these types of roots come from? The bottom? And do they matter being that close to the surface?

It is for sure odd. But this entire process has had oddities non stop.

That is an important part of the normal root growth pattern for Cannabis plants.

There are lateral roots that are just under the surface and these will grow hair roots for quick absorbing of water and water soluble nutrients. These roots will keep growing out to the drip line of the leaves. However, when the plant is in a pot they will grow to the edge and work their way around and around until there are so many that it can be hard to push a bamboo stake through them or sometimes even dig with a spoon.
In the meantime the rest of the root system is headed down but will not grow as many hair roots of any kind. These roots help to stabilize the plant so it can stay upright in the soil (or grow medium). They will also be growing some hair roots to pick up moisture and nutrients. On top of that they will grow thick roots, sometimes thicker than a pencil, because the plant uses them for storage of sucrose/sugars and nutrients it has absorbed. These roots will also start to circle around when the tips bump into the walls or bottom of the pot.

A bit of disturbing of the top layer roots is OK but I really feel that the grower should be careful. Destroy that layer of roots when the plant is in flower and it can reduce the plants ability to get water and nutrients as soon as these are needed. I leave them alone even when transplanting and especially the last transplant before putting them into flower. By the time the plant is in flower the layer can be so thick with hair roots that it will slow down how fast the water is absorbed by the soil allowing the water to pool on top and slowly be absorbed instead of moving to the edge and then down.

The way around this that I leave a ring at the edge where I do loosen and trench the soil enough that some water will quickly flow into the soil to keep the lower roots healthy. On occasion I will pop the root mass out of the pot after harvesting and see that the top layer is properly moist, the bottom layer is properly moist but the middle layer is dry enough to be noticeable by feel or sight. Other growers have popped out the root mass after harvest and taken photos because they notice the same thing. The water runs down the side fast enough that not enough is slowly absorbed by the soil in the center.

The problem is that once the plant starts to flower it stops actively growing new roots if any of them are damaged and by the end all root growth has stopped. This can cut back on harvest quantity and quality and we might not even know it has happened.

I found the following diagram while looking up info on the root system and back tracked their graphic to the original so inserted the location info. Underneath the graphic will be info on how to find the Cannabis Root article which brings up many points about the root system.

The article can be found by using google (or favorite search engine) and doing a search for the keywords below. Either block and paste or type it in. I disagree with one point in the article. They seem to think that the damage done to the root system during flowering is a minor issue while I feel that it is major and damage, especially repeated damage, should be avoided if at all possible.

Search for the article using:
alchimiaweb cannabis roots

and look for:
Cannabis roots: A complete guide

 

[Joe Brewster]

Cannabis has a shallow top root system, so that they can suck up condensation & dew.
Here is a picture of a root system from a plant I grew outside, in the ground

 

[Aweedtec]

Apologies for being absent. I just had a ton of work fall in my lap so now I am working two jobs and one of them is tearing an entire roof off that a tree fell on and rebuilding it and i have not done anything like that in 15 years. So I was getting rest and just doing minimalist stuff for the plants.



I wanted to show these photos because this is where my plants are right now. I moved two in the basement under their own light and two in my closet. The biggest plant I have... the leaves I should have cut off are turning yellow. I did give the plants some bloom booster but no where near enough. It made the smaller plants darker but the larger plant only slightly darker in some areas and some areas it appeared the nutrients from the larger leaves started to be used because when I gave it the bloom booster I flushed them all. So now, its watering time again and so I will add 4 more tablespoons of bloom booster to each pot.

If I had properly defoliated that plant maybe it would have been in worse shape because when I flushed out the veg nutes while adding the bloom booster nutes I didnt add enough and it was still able to keep going. But leaves are turning yellow here and there (large leaves only and just a few at a time).

 

[Aweedtec]

Cannabis has a shallow top root system, so that they can suck up condensation & dew.
Here is a picture of a root system from a plant I grew outside, in the ground

That is the root structure of a cannabis plant? That plant had to be huge.

 

[Joe Brewster]

That is the root structure of a cannabis plant? That plant had to be huge.

Yes, for an auto it got big
Never got a pic of it finished.
This one is mid Aug Still had a month to go

Superstinky by Short Stuff

• Joe Brewster
• Sep 5, 2019

My first outdoor grow & first Auto

After it dried up

Superstinky Stem

• Joe Brewster
• Oct 13, 2022

This was the stalk from the plant I grew the next year after

IMG_1965.JPG

• Joe Brewster
• Sep 1, 2020
• 1

Super Stinky Main Stem 2020

IMG_1964.JPG

• Joe Brewster
• Sep 1, 2020

Super Stinky Stem

IMG_1863.JPG

• Joe Brewster
• Sep 1, 2020
• 1

Super Stinky got stolen before I could harvest

 

[SmokingWings]

Here is a picture of a root system from a plant I grew outside, in the ground

The first thing that I noticed was the large area that the roots took up gave the idea that it was not growing in a pot. The roots had all the room they needed to spread out and search for water and nutrients.

I see your note that it was an auto-flower but that root knot looks like what I see when I get a chance to check the roots on the clones I grow.

 

[Joe Brewster]

The first thing that I noticed was the large area that the roots took up gave the idea that it was not growing in a pot. The roots had all the room they needed to spread out and search for water and nutrients.

I see your note that it was an auto-flower but that root knot looks like what I see when I get a chance to check the roots on the clones I grow.

Yes was an auto, grown in the ground. Growing in a pot is unnatural to them. The first plant dropped seeds & the second year plant grew by itself

 

[Aweedtec]

Yes was an auto, grown in the ground. Growing in a pot is unnatural to them. The first plant dropped seeds & the second year plant grew by itself

I would love to grow a plant outside in the ground next season. But in order to do that I need to cut down about 35 or 40 trees on my fence line. I have the most shaded yard in the entire neighborhood. Mosquito haven.


I thought about putting a platform up on my roof in the valley but my neighbor has a huge birch tree in his front yard that blocks the light for some of the day. on the roof there is never really total shade except for a medium portion of the day. But its spotty when shady. So I wonder if I were to do that would they still grow well with the fact that there is no denying they would be getting sunlight for more than 12 hours a day until the season changes.

 

[Joe Brewster]

I would love to grow a plant outside in the ground next season. But in order to do that I need to cut down about 35 or 40 trees on my fence line. I have the most shaded yard in the entire neighborhood. Mosquito haven.


I thought about putting a platform up on my roof in the valley but my neighbor has a huge birch tree in his front yard that blocks the light for some of the day. on the roof there is never really total shade except for a medium portion of the day. But its spotty when shady. So I wonder if I were to do that would they still grow well with the fact that there is no denying they would be getting sunlight for more than 12 hours a day until the season changes.

On the east side you see the fence, but further east was also a house & big Maple tree blocking the morning sun, so the spot didn't see full sunlight till after 12 noon

 

[Aweedtec]

On the east side you see the fence, but further east was also a house & big Maple tree blocking the morning sun, so the spot didn't see full sunlight till after 12 noon

If you had a plant that started out nice and dark... Then the entire plant lightened up. Not yellow.. but turned a lighter shade of green. Then you realized you missed an entire 2 week cycle of fertilizer while using all organic... then when you just gave it the bloom booster once you flipped the lights to flower..... would you assume you could add a bit more fertilizer a week to 10 days later if it greened up well in most places but not in all places (except the area of new growth) but didnt get dark green like it was before? Or would you wait until the next 2 week fertilizer cycle?

Hope that makes sense.

This is my largest plant right now. Its 4 foot in diameter. Well, very close to 4 foot. It was nice and dark at the beginning of this thread and others. Someone mentioned it looked a little light green about a month into the veg cycle.
So I read up and realized I got some bad info and was told I didnt need anymore fertilizer until the lights were flipped. Which happened a bit over one month. Maybe a few days over 30.
But according to the company that makes the fertilizer, they say every two weeks add 1/4 cup of fertilizer to a 5 gallon container.
I fertilized it exactly as directed... Mixed it into pro mix. Then missed the 2 week interval completely.

I am going back and forth with my friend who keeps saying maybe its light green because its supposed to be.
Which is strange to say to me because when I added fertilizer it greened up in 5 days. Just didnt go full green or as dark as it was when it was about 2 weeks old.

Something tells me I should add 2 more tablespoons. Its not burning up anywhere and its moving along nice.

I just have this feeling I should pretend 11 days is 2 weeks and feed the plant again.

 

[Joe Brewster]

If you had a plant that started out nice and dark... Then the entire plant lightened up. Not yellow.. but turned a lighter shade of green. Then you realized you missed an entire 2 week cycle of fertilizer while using all organic... then when you just gave it the bloom booster once you flipped the lights to flower..... would you assume you could add a bit more fertilizer a week to 10 days later if it greened up well in most places but not in all places (except the area of new growth) but didnt get dark green like it was before? Or would you wait until the next 2 week fertilizer cycle?

Hope that makes sense.

This is my largest plant right now. Its 4 foot in diameter. Well, very close to 4 foot. It was nice and dark at the beginning of this thread and others. Someone mentioned it looked a little light green about a month into the veg cycle.
So I read up and realized I got some bad info and was told I didnt need anymore fertilizer until the lights were flipped. Which happened a bit over one month. Maybe a few days over 30.
But according to the company that makes the fertilizer, they say every two weeks add 1/4 cup of fertilizer to a 5 gallon container.
I fertilized it exactly as directed... Mixed it into pro mix. Then missed the 2 week interval completely.

I am going back and forth with my friend who keeps saying maybe its light green because its supposed to be.
Which is strange to say to me because when I added fertilizer it greened up in 5 days. Just didnt go full green or as dark as it was when it was about 2 weeks old.

Something tells me I should add 2 more tablespoons. Its not burning up anywhere and its moving along nice.

I just have this feeling I should pretend 11 days is 2 weeks and feed the plant again.

What is the bloom fertilizer you are planning to feed it with? In the first two weeks of flip to 12/12 there is rapid growth so top will be lighter green
Looks ok you could open up the top a bit let some light in. Take a few fan leaves covering buds

 

[Aweedtec]

What is the bloom fertilizer you are planning to feed it with? In the first two weeks of flip to 12/12 there is rapid growth so top will be lighter green
Looks ok you could open up the top a bit let some light in. Take a few fan leaves covering buds

Dr earth bloom booster.
The entire plant turned a lighter shade of green before it was turned so I figured it was low on nutes so i switched from Dr Earth Veg to bloom booster because friend told me to do this and I wrongly assumed he did the research but believed it was a low nutrient issue because the entire plant lightened up. When i gave it the bloom booster the mass majority darkened up. Just still some areas that were lighter didnt darken and those spots look to me that they resemble other areas that darkened. So when I read i missed a fert date I realized it was a communication mistake between me and my friend. im now trying to make up for it.