Nute burn, help!

[Mike80]

Hi guys,

I’m at day 58 of my White Widow Auto flower. Experienced issues with under watering very early on which cause the plants to be stunted. Gave the plants 12.5 % recommended nute dosage second last watering and plants did fine. When I gave them 100% recommended nutrient dosage, nute burn hit me hard. Growing in Happy Frog 5 Gallon pots. Should I cut off the dead leafs? Any tips appreciated. I’m leaning towards getting new seeds and starting new grow along side these guys.

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi Mike... something is definitely going wrong here, but I don't think it is nute burn. I think this looks like several things might be happening, so lets examine a few details. First, how often are you watering? Are you pH adjusting your fluids> Are you feeding each time or giving water inbetween? Which nutes are you using... and are you sure you have the dosages correct? If you cut off the dead and dying leaves there will be nothing left... don't cut anything just yet... lets see if we can correct this. And where did the 12.5% number come from??

 

[wasDC]

Thats not nute burn, it's a total apocalypse. Flush them and pray. Doubt they'll be able to produce much, probably your best bet is go for re veg and treat your cannabis better next time.

Hi Mike... something is definitely going wrong here, but I don't think it is nute burn. I think this looks like several things might be happening, so lets examine a few details. First, how often are you watering? Are you pH adjusting your fluids> Are you feeding each time or giving water inbetween? Which nutes are you using... and are you sure you have the dosages correct? If you cut off the dead and dying leaves there will be nothing left... don't cut anything just yet... lets see if we can correct this. And where did the 12.5% number come from??

 

[Mike80]

Hi Mike... something is definitely going wrong here, but I don't think it is nute burn. I think this looks like several things might be happening, so lets examine a few details. First, how often are you watering? Are you pH adjusting your fluids> Are you feeding each time or giving water inbetween? Which nutes are you using... and are you sure you have the dosages correct? If you cut off the dead and dying leaves there will be nothing left... don't cut anything just yet... lets see if we can correct this. And where did the 12.5% number come from??

Hi Emilya,
For the past couple of waterings , I been giving them PH balance water every 10 days. I’ve only given them two feedings ever. I followed this chart. Gave them 12.5% of recommended dosage for week 5 then for next feeding gave them 100% week 6 recommendations.

I think the other problem is that I gave them the same nutrient mix for all the plants and each one was at a different growth stage. I only gave them the General Hydroponic nutes. When I flushed the plants though I forgot to PH balance the water.

 

[Mike80]

Thats not nute burn, it's a total apocalypse. Flush them and pray. Doubt they'll be able to produce much, probably your best bet is go for re veg and treat your cannabis better next time.

They are still pretty wet from last watering. Don’t want to flush when they are not dry yet.

 

[Emilya Green]

when you add nutes, do you pH adjust your water before or after?

 

[Emilya Green]

and then, why drain to waste hydro nutes in a soil grow? You do realize that is not exactly compatable, either pH wise or dosage wise? tell me more about this 12.5% though.... how and why did you figure that out?

 

[Mike80]

when you add nutes, do you pH adjust your water before or after?

I adjusted the PH after adding the nutes. I usually add FloraMicro then FloraGrowth then Florabloom then PH adjust the water.

and then, why drain to waste hydro nutes in a soil grow? You do realize that is not exactly compatable, either pH wise or dosage wise? tell me more about this 12.5% though.... how and why did you figure that out?

Unfortunately I did not realize that. I filled a 2 gallon jug with water , added 1.25 ml of FloraMicro , 1.25 ml of FloraGrow and 1.25 ml of FloraBloom for the first feeding. PPM 332. PH was about 6.62 . I looked at week 4 recommendations. They wanted me to give 4 ml per gallon and I gave about 0.63 ml per gallon. About 12% of recommended dosage. I gave them only PH balanced water after this feeding then we arrived at
second feeding.

Second feeding, I looked at week 5 recommendations and it was 4 ml FloraMicro, 1 ml Floragro and 5 ml FloraBloom per gallon. This is when things took a turn for worse and slowly progressed. I flushed with water couple of days after the feeding but I don’t think it was enough.

 

[Emilya Green]

I have no idea what those dosages equate to in the soil world, none of us even use PPM as a measurement, but your plants look like they are not getting enough. 6.62pH is practically out of the soil range and if your pH drifts upward once it hits the soil as soil is designed to do, quickly your nutes are up above the soil range, and from the beginning were well out of the hydro range. If the pH is not where a hydro nute wants it to be, and you are giving a fraction of those recommended dosages on top of it... you are barely feeding your plants anything, and it is no wonder that they are starving to death.

Now lets discuss how you got here. Did you buy these nutes because of a recommendation from a nice person in a hydro supply store? They may have seemed nice, but they sabotaged the heck out of you by selling you non soil nutes... and they probably expect you to come back telling how badly soil worked out for you, and they will gladly sell you all the hydro equipment you need, so that you can have a better experience. You got the whole line of nutes... it sounds like they saw you coming. I hope I am not right, but it does happen all the time.

 

[Mike80]

I have been giving them filtered water since the start. Could it be a Magnesium and Calcium deficiency? I’m not sure if my filter removes Calcium and Magnesium. I was under the assumption that the PH range for soil is between 6.5-6.8. You mentioned Hydro setup a couple of times but I’m not using a hydro setup. I started off with Happy Frog, which supposedly has all the nutrients in it to get me by for 4-6 weeks. I just googled best cannabis nutrients for soil and the Trio was at the top of multiple lists for soil.

 

[Emilya Green]

I have been giving them filtered water since the start. Could it be a Magnesium and Calcium deficiency? I’m not sure if my filter removes Calcium and Magnesium. I was under the assumption that the PH range for soil is between 6.5-6.8. You mentioned Hydro setup a couple of times but I’m not using a hydro setup. I started off with Happy Frog, which supposedly has all the nutrients in it to get me by for 4-6 weeks. I just googled best cannabis nutrients for soil and the Trio was at the top of multiple lists for soil.

This is a whole lot more than a calcium and/or magnesium deficiency... this is starvation. Your assumption about pH range is completely wrong... you need to study what we are adjusting and why. The range that you MUST move your nutrients through in soil is 6.2-6.8 pH. If you do not use this entire range, you will have deficiencies, and that is the secret to the art of growing in soil... how to not just achieve one number in that range, but how to run your container of soil through that ENTIRE range, every time you water.

I am mentioning hydro because you are using hydro nutrients. You are NOT using soil nutrients. There is a difference. Happy Frog doesn't have anything in it but a little bit of Nitrogen. It is a starting soil, and not designed to support our plants for very long at all... 4 weeks is pushing it.

There is no one best nutrient system for soil or hydro or anything else. If there was, we would all be using it. If you googled the best nutrients for soil and you came up with a hydro nutrient line, your search failed. I could give you a list of 20 soil only nutrient lines... but you chose one for a water based grow system.

Sorry to rag on you here, but you are doing several basic things wrongly. I'm not trying to be difficult, but you showed us your pictures and asked for help... and you are getting it, but you are going to have to get rid of some of your assumptions, or whomever is advising you so wrongly, and try something fundamentally different.

I suggest starting with a different nutrient line. I am using GeoFlora nutrients and they are doing a great job for me. Many people like MegaCrop in soil. I ran the Fox Farm line of nutrients (their trio) for several years and got great results from it. The point is, if you are running in soil, use soil based nutes because they are designed to be mobile in the soil's pH range of 6.2-6.8.... in a hydro based (soilless) system, the nutrients are designed to work in a more acidic environment, between 5.5-6.1 pH. The systems are not interchangeable, even though some companies, and many hydro shop owners, insist that they are. Your grow unfortunately, is showing us why it does not work.

 

[Mike80]

This is a whole lot more than a calcium and/or magnesium deficiency... this is starvation. Your assumption about pH range is completely wrong... you need to study what we are adjusting and why. The range that you MUST move your nutrients through in soil is 6.2-6.8 pH. If you do not use this entire range, you will have deficiencies, and that is the secret to the art of growing in soil... how to not just achieve one number in that range, but how to run your container of soil through that ENTIRE range, every time you water.

I am mentioning hydro because you are using hydro nutrients. You are NOT using soil nutrients. There is a difference. Happy Frog doesn't have anything in it but a little bit of Nitrogen. It is a starting soil, and not designed to support our plants for very long at all... 4 weeks is pushing it.

There is no one best nutrient system for soil or hydro or anything else. If there was, we would all be using it. If you googled the best nutrients for soil and you came up with a hydro nutrient line, your search failed. I could give you a list of 20 soil only nutrient lines... but you chose one for a water based grow system.

Sorry to rag on you here, but you are doing several basic things wrongly. I'm not trying to be difficult, but you showed us your pictures and asked for help... and you are getting it, but you are going to have to get rid of some of your assumptions, or whomever is advising you so wrongly, and try something fundamentally different.

I suggest starting with a different nutrient line. I am using GeoFlora nutrients and they are doing a great job for me. Many people like MegaCrop in soil. I ran the Fox Farm line of nutrients (their trio) for several years and got great results from it. The point is, if you are running in soil, use soil based nutes because they are designed to be mobile in the soil's pH range of 6.2-6.8.... in a hydro based (soilless) system, the nutrients are designed to work in a more acidic environment, between 5.5-6.1 pH. The systems are not interchangeable, even though some companies, and many hydro shop owners, insist that they are. Your grow unfortunately, is showing us why it does not work.

You are absolutely not being difficult and I appreciate all your advice . I have nothing but respect for you. I didn’t know that about the soil. I have not been aiming to achieve different PH every time either. I’ve been adjusting it just to get it between 6.5 to 6.8. I’ll go buy the GeoFlora line and start giving it to the plants.

 

[NuttyProfessor]

Autos dont like much nutes less is more you have a lock out

In fact, the General Hydroponics Flora Series chart is perfect for those looking to make the absolute most out of your plants when growing hydroponically. Despite their name, most of their products can be safely used in soil and coco

 

[NuttyProfessor]

example of lock out

 

[Mike80]

That table matches what I gave my plants.

 

[TorturedSoul]

I have no idea what those dosages equate to in the soil world

A very mild feeding. For a reasonably healthy photoperiodic plant being grown in soil("ish") that is not heavily amended with nutrients, at least. And Happy Frog, after five weeks, shouldn't be. You're probably correct about the pH issue. People have been using General Hydroponics' three-part Flora series in soil for 40 years, and Mike is correctly adding the Micro component to his water first, so he's not causing anything to precipitate out of solution (unless his water is so hard that he uses a knife and fork to consume a serving of it, lol). I wouldn't say that it's the best thing to use in soil, but it works fine and does so at the traditional soil pH sweet spot.

Yes, there's a good chance your water filter is removing calcium and magnesium from the water, depending on the type/brand of filter. If your source water has a huge amount of available calcium, it's not a bad idea to remove some of it. If you have a lot of non-nutritive and/or toxic crap in your source water, it's a good idea to remove all of it. But if not... Not everyone needs to run their water through a filter before using it in their garden. As far as that goes, if its only issue is too much calcium, there's a Hard Water Micro component that can be used in place of the regular Micro one. Or, if you have twice as much Ca as you want, you can mix the unfiltered water in a one to one ratio with water that has none. Etc.

Regardless, make sure that it actually IS a water filter instead of a water softener. Those just exchange the Ca (and Mg) for Na (sodium).

To add to the discussion about pH: I didn't see a mention of how you are measuring it. Are you using the test strips, or an actual meter? If the latter, what brand/model, how do you store it between uses, and how often do you calibrate it?

 

[Mike80]

A very mild feeding. For a reasonably healthy photoperiodic plant being grown in soil("ish") that is not heavily amended with nutrients, at least. And Happy Frog, after five weeks, shouldn't be. You're probably correct about the pH issue. People have been using General Hydroponics' three-part Flora series in soil for 40 years, and Mike is correctly adding the Micro component to his water first, so he's not causing anything to precipitate out of solution (unless his water is so hard that he uses a knife and fork to consume a serving of it, lol). I wouldn't say that it's the best thing to use in soil, but it works fine and does so at the traditional soil pH sweet spot.

Yes, there's a good chance your water filter is removing calcium and magnesium from the water, depending on the type/brand of filter. If your source water has a huge amount of available calcium, it's not a bad idea to remove some of it. If you have a lot of non-nutritive and/or toxic crap in your source water, it's a good idea to remove all of it. But if not... Not everyone needs to run their water through a filter before using it in their garden. As far as that goes, if its only issue is too much calcium, there's a Hard Water Micro component that can be used in place of the regular Micro one. Or, if you have twice as much Ca as you want, you can mix the unfiltered water in a one to one ratio with water that has none. Etc.

Regardless, make sure that it actually IS a water filter instead of a water softener. Those just exchange the Ca (and Mg) for Na (sodium).

To add to the discussion about pH: I didn't see a mention of how you are measuring it. Are you using the test strips, or an actual meter? If the latter, what brand/model, how do you store it between uses, and how often do you calibrate it?

Hey,
I haven’t tested my tap water but just to be safe I been using water filter. My initial plan was to use distilled water and just add Cal-Mag. I ended up just filtering it.
I do use PH meter. The brand is called Preciva. I just leave it on top of a dresser with lid on and it arrived calibrated. I haven’t calibrated it myself.

Very good possibility it is Magnesium deficiency which caused lock out of other nutrients. I will give them watering with Cal-Mag tomorrow and see how they respond.

 

[TorturedSoul]

I do use PH meter. The brand is called Preciva. I just leave it on top of a dresser with lid on and it arrived calibrated. I haven’t calibrated it myself.

Looks like Preciva is one of those Amazon/eBay "everything under the sun" Cheap Chinese product brands. I did a web search for "Preciva pH meter" and the only one I could find was a knockoff of the old Milwaukee Instruments pH600 disposable (probe not user-replaceable) model, except that the Preciva version appears to be red instead of yellow, and appears to have ATC and a temperature probe (but not a separate temperature display or, possibly, not a temperature display at all, IDK). Single-point manual calibration via a small screw in the back but comes with pH 4.01 buffer solution (powder), too, as if the user had some way of setting the slope (IOW, two-part calibration), costs $12.99 on (sc)Amazon - where there are numerous reports of the seller sending out used/returned units. Is that the one?

If so... The original wasn't great, but it was okay. The cheap knockoffs, less so. Anyway, regardless of instructions to the contrary, that type of meter should have been dipped/swirled in warm water to dissolve the crystals that have dried on it due to storage before being sold to the customer, then initially hydrated/conditioned for a couple hours in storage/conditioning solution (pH 4.01 buffer solution can be used in a pinch) in order to properly condition the glass bulb probe. Then it should be calibrated. Looks like it comes with pH 6.86 instead of the 7.00/7.01 that most people use, but that's no big deal. Be sure to use distilled water when mixing up the solutions.

Never store the meter "dry," and never store it in distilled water. Storage/conditioning solution is available but, again, pH 4.01 solution will work in a pinch. It doesn't take much. Sometimes you can use the cap for this purpose, but it may or may not seal well when placed back on the unit. If it doesn't, be sure to not allow all of the storage (or 4.01) solution evaporate.

In "mission critical" industries (water treatment plants, wastewater treatment, etc.) they recommend calibrating one's pH testing equipment before each use. That's "a bit" extreme for gardening purposes. Checking its calibration on a weekly basis, either with one of the buffer solutions or some other product that has a known/stable pH, and re-calibrating as/when needed is sufficient, IMHO. With proper conditioning and care, this kind of pH meter should last three to six months if the glass bulb probe is not allowed to dry out inside.

BtW, inexpensive handheld pH meters have no internal EMI/RFI shielding. For that reason, you may notice unreliable/incorrect readings if using it in the garden space while other unshielded electrical devices (lights/fans/etc.) are running. If so, the solution is simple: either shut the offending device(s) off when you are testing samples or take the sample to another part of your house and test it there. An easy way to check for this thing is to have all of the electrical devices in your garden space on a power strip or switched outlet, take a sample, test its pH, and flip off the power strip / outlet, and quickly glance back at the pH meter's display to see if the readout changes.

 

[Mike80]

Looks like Preciva is one of those Amazon/eBay "everything under the sun" Cheap Chinese product brands. I did a web search for "Preciva pH meter" and the only one I could find was a knockoff of the old Milwaukee Instruments pH600 disposable (probe not user-replaceable) model, except that the Preciva version appears to be red instead of yellow, and appears to have ATC and a temperature probe (but not a separate temperature display or, possibly, not a temperature display at all, IDK). Single-point manual calibration via a small screw in the back but comes with pH 4.01 buffer solution (powder), too, as if the user had some way of setting the slope (IOW, two-part calibration), costs $12.99 on (sc)Amazon - where there are numerous reports of the seller sending out used/returned units. Is that the one?

If so... The original wasn't great, but it was okay. The cheap knockoffs, less so. Anyway, regardless of instructions to the contrary, that type of meter should have been dipped/swirled in warm water to dissolve the crystals that have dried on it due to storage before being sold to the customer, then initially hydrated/conditioned for a couple hours in storage/conditioning solution (pH 4.01 buffer solution can be used in a pinch) in order to properly condition the glass bulb probe. Then it should be calibrated. Looks like it comes with pH 6.86 instead of the 7.00/7.01 that most people use, but that's no big deal. Be sure to use distilled water when mixing up the solutions.

Never store the meter "dry," and never store it in distilled water. Storage/conditioning solution is available but, again, pH 4.01 solution will work in a pinch. It doesn't take much. Sometimes you can use the cap for this purpose, but it may or may not seal well when placed back on the unit. If it doesn't, be sure to not allow all of the storage (or 4.01) solution evaporate.

In "mission critical" industries (water treatment plants, wastewater treatment, etc.) they recommend calibrating one's pH testing equipment before each use. That's "a bit" extreme for gardening purposes. Checking its calibration on a weekly basis, either with one of the buffer solutions or some other product that has a known/stable pH, and re-calibrating as/when needed is sufficient, IMHO. With proper conditioning and care, this kind of pH meter should last three to six months if the glass bulb probe is not allowed to dry out inside.

BtW, inexpensive handheld pH meters have no internal EMI/RFI shielding. For that reason, you may notice unreliable/incorrect readings if using it in the garden space while other unshielded electrical devices (lights/fans/etc.) are running. If so, the solution is simple: either shut the offending device(s) off when you are testing samples or take the sample to another part of your house and test it there. An easy way to check for this thing is to have all of the electrical devices in your garden space on a power strip or switched outlet, take a sample, test its pH, and flip off the power strip / outlet, and quickly glance back at the pH meter's display to see if the readout changes.

Hey,
I bought the red one from Amazon. It was about $24 dollars and reviews were excellent. I will be ordering two other PH meters and will calibrate mine.

I gave the plants their biggest watering ever. One gallon of water for each pot(growing in 3 gallon). I added 5 ml of Cal-Mag, 1.25 ml floramicro, 1.25 floragro and 1.25 Florabloom for each gallon. The water I gave them was at PH 6.61. I managed to collect some run off water and tested it. The PH is about 6.01. I’m getting very acidic run off. Will have to search into what this means. I had a full stem with dried leaf fall off one of the sick plants. The sick plants leafs are getting super dry. My healthiest plant is showing burn on lowest buds as well. Hopefully this watering helps a bit

 

[Emilya Green]

6.61 is too high... you will surely continue to starve your plants at this rate. 6.2-6.3 is correct in FF soils. The pH of your runoff in soil is meaningless... yes, of course it is acidic. Don't believe the naysayers on the internet who tell you that this measurement is even important, they are charlatans and it is not.