Long-time reader, finally getting active

[ShutUpDonny]

Hey all.

Just wanted to thank everyone involved in this awesome project. I've spent quite a bit of time reading all the great info you've posted, and now it's finally time to join the fray myself. I hope some day to be able to give back just a little

I am about to embark on a mini stealth tent op, growing a few unknown ladies in soil under an apparently decent LED which was gifted to me. I don't actually imbibe (believe it or not), but my GF is living with a stomach condition that causes her constant nausea and frequent vomiting so I'm going to try to help her out. Back in my college days I shared a small HID/hydroton operation which ended up being quite a disappointment, so I'm looking forward to doing it right this time with your help.

Speaking of which, I realize that both soil and LEDs may be controversial choices, so I'll be posting questions about them both quite soon. Anyway, seeya out there!

Respect,
>Donny

 

[Captain Kronic]

Re: Long-time reader, finally getting active.

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[Goldengoose7]

Hi again Donny!

I didn't realize that you were not growing for your own use! That's an admirable undertaking my friend!

Makes me even more pleased that I was able to help you out earlier! Be sure to let me know if you need any more info!

And welcome to the family!

Sent from my iPod touch using Forum Runner

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Hey, it's a pleasure to be here. Seriously. Everyone is so helpful and appreciative, there's hardly any one-upsmanship to be found, and definitely no flaming. It's just nice to be surrounded by people who treat each other humanely. Being able to learn from them is just icing.

Yeah, I'm not really much of a smoker at this point. When I was in school, sure, not to mention lots of other so-called antisocial activities besides. But now pot just makes me feel uncomfortable and paranoid. Not "people think I look high" paranoid, more like "I'm a failure at life" paranoid. I always used to smoke when I was hungover and basically had what we called The Weirds anyway, but now that even my drinking has tapered way down there's just no need. But I sure am glad that most people respond to it in the opposite way, and doubly so that it helps my gf cope with her ailment. And I forget whose journal it was that I was reading earlier, but they were talking about how growing can be therapeutic in itself. It already feels that way to me, so I'm getting mine out of it as well!

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Oh, and GG I sent you a reply to your pm. Please let me know if it didn't go through (I guess us 420mag newbies have a few privileges to earn!) and I'll resend it, because I really am on the fence about lights, and with my sprouts growing up before my eyes I really need to get my isht together.

 

[Goldengoose7]

Oh, and GG I sent you a reply to your pm. Please let me know if it didn't go through (I guess us 420mag newbies have a few privileges to earn!) and I'll resend it, because I really am on the fence about lights, and with my sprouts growing up before my eyes I really need to get my isht together.

Hey Donny!

Just checked my in box and no PM from you there I'm afraid. Please resend! Just click on my name and use the "Send private message" link.

If you are looking for T5s or CFLs I can definitely help advise you on the best fixtures for your grow space!

P.S. I too was pleasantly surprised by the decorum on these forums! I've come across a few "Dicks" from time to time, but they don't last long around here cause the "good people" of 420 tend to ignore them after a while and they end up slithering back under the rock they crawled out from under!

The civility here is definitely refreshing compared to 99.9% of the public discussion forums on the web!

Sent from my iPod touch using Forum Runner

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Sure nuff, I'm too new to be able to send pm's. So here's my attempted reconstruction of what I sent before:

Argh, I can see now that my reply didn't go through. I'll try to reconstruct it now, but will cut out all my lovingly crafted prose and just stick to the questions this 2nd time around.

Since I'm in a 3x3 tent, the biggest I could go with is a 2' T5 6-bulb (if they make em) or maybe a 4-bulb + a 2-bulb. Would this be enough for a top light? I'm envisioning doing a scrog with 2-4 plants - I have 6 seedlings and will use however many ladies show up.

Could I hang T5s vertically and use them as side lights?

Those Feliz lights look pretty awesome - are they putting out a lot more light than the other CFL screw-ins? Should I consider them as fill lights no matter what kind of main lighting I go with?

I'm sure the electric bill and generated heat would both be better than with HID, but are they a lot better?

I saw what that other kid posted about growing with just a handful of 40w CFLs and red film - assuming that is actually in no way sufficient?

Would I need to get active venting installed as well? The added cost of doing so plus the lessening of my stealth would probably make me me swing back towards LEDs again...

Okay, that's enough for now. Gotta go watch the Red Sox inevitably lose and regenerate my nitpicky question machine... And thanks again for all the advice!

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Wow, I need 50 posts to be able to PM! I mean, I got yours, but I just wont be able to respond for awhile... So I guess if you have more links or whatnot then you could message them to me, or we could just take this back to the CFL thread? I guess that makes sense, huh? Man, sorry for the runaround!

 

[Goldengoose7]

Wow, I need 50 posts to be able to PM! I mean, I got yours, but I just wont be able to respond for awhile... So I guess if you have more links or whatnot then you could message them to me, or we could just take this back to the CFL thread? I guess that makes sense, huh? Man, sorry for the runaround!

Just reply to my PM and delete all the quoted stuff from before and start fresh. At least that way I will definitely get it!

I can answer your questions here first though...

If you can't run a 4 foot fixture, you might be better off going with 40, 45 or 65 watt CFLs and clamp on shoplight fixtures. Links to the fixtures and the 40/45 watt bulbs were in that previous list I sent you.

If you have a Home Depot or Lowes near you, they both sell 65 watt CFLs that use a conventional fixture like those clamp ons. Those have even higher lumens than the 45s which are pretty bright! Haven't found any 65 watters on Amazon, just 40 and 45s so I don't have any 65 watters here, but those 4 and 6 packs amazon sells are a pretty good deal!

You will need both the daylight type for veg and later "soft white" for bloom when its time to flower your crop. I had links to both types in that list also.

I live up in the Sierra Nevada mountains far away from any major city, so I have no choice but to buy most of my grow supplies online, but you may not have to! Like I said... Home Depot and Lowes are great sources for cheap CFL bulbs and they do stock the higher wattage versions you need for growing. You don't want anything less than a 40 watt. They should also carry those clamp on shop light fixtures I also linked in that list. Just compare to the online prices to determine which would be cheaper for you with tax etc.

The advantage with this CFL/shoplight fixture approach is that they are portable, can be clamped onto anything stable and you can also take the shade off and screw in one of those "Y" adapters to have TWO bulbs per fixture. For the price of a T5 overhead, you could buy a lot of CFLs and clamp ons!

If you could fit a 4 foot in there, I would say go for a 4 foot 6 tube Hydrofarm Designer Series panel like what I use in my bathroom grow room. That room is my flowering room during the season. I use it for overwintering mother plants during the winter and just swap out the bulbs with 6400k (daylight) for veg.

You're going to need at least one timer, preferably two so you can run fans on a schedule too.

I use the Intermatic 620 as my "do everything" timer. I also have two really high end timers (PlugnGrow iGS-15) that can do light cycles beyond 24 hours that I have been experimenting with for extended yields during flowering using 26 and 27 hour cycles (14/12, 14/13), but those retail $350.00 each! I'm helping Nova Biomatique to improve this product's operating system and also beta testing their Mac OSX firmware updater application so I got mine for free.

Anyway... The Intermatic 620 is a great timer for CFL or T5 grow light systems. One timer can handle up to 15 amps, has a grounded plug and TWO grounded outlets! It has a RANDOM mode that is great for running fans throughout a 24 hour period.

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Hey Goose!

Yeah man, it straight up will not let me respond to your PM's until I reach 50 posts. Tried again just now, but no-go. Luckily I copied what I wrote this time!

**********

Man, what a cornucopia of info - great great stuff!

Yeah, I don't have enough room to hang a 4' fixture over the plants. So the question is do I cram in as many 2' fixtures as I can, or go with the screw-in CFLs instead? And is it true that I can't hang a 4' T5 down each wall (my tent is 6' tall)?

If I were to go LED I guess I'd go with that growstealth dude (perpetual motion businessman that he is) since everyone who's actually used his stuff seems to like it. He'd also give me 25% of the cost back if I did a journal, knocking it down to $550...

But with CFL it just seems like I can't wrap my brain around it. I have literally no clue as to how a ton of little lights stacks up against several midrange Feliz lamps or 6 bulbs of 2' T5. Said another way, I have about $700 to spend on lighting and ventilation, or even better just on lighting that doesn't need venting. And I'm either going with CFL or LED. So to put you in the hot seat, how would you go about it if you were in my shoes? I know it's kinda cheating to phrase it like that, but I'm just lost with so many options and so little experience.

I'm just going to keep on thanking you til my fingers fall off, even if it's insufficient repayment. And if you want to respond as a PM I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for those, too. Thanks again!

 

[Goldengoose7]

Oh Shit! I totally forgot about the 50 post requirement for PMs! Sorry about that!

OK..I'm thinking out loud here with the following thoughts...

I don't know anything about LEDs so I can't help you with that. You would have to ask around in the journals that are using them.

My friend Mr. Krip uses them, so maybe you can post a question in his old journal about what kind he uses and what he would recommend for your area?

Personally, I feel they are a lot of $$ for not much coverage area, but since you don't have a lot of area to cover, perhaps that would be a good way to go. All depends on how many plants you plan to grow at one time and how those plants would be arranged. These LED panels are not very big, and when your plants get larger, it might not be possible to fit all of them under a single LED fixture.

Just as an FYI: One of those 2 foot by 4 or even 6 tube T5 fixtures like what I have is only large enough for one 35" tall plant. Something to think about eh? With the separate CFL/clamp ons, you are free to move them around and mix and match bulb temps, reposition them as needed as your plants grow. You are kind of stuck with this rectangle with both the T5 and the LED fixtures.

You could hang those four foot T5 fixtures down the wall and they are even designed to be able to do that by changing the way the hanger attachments attach to the fixture. They do make GREAT sidefills! I have never used them for that, but since I own two of them, I know they would be awesome for that application. You could do that and use 65 watt CFLs for overheads!

How many plants do you plan to grow in this small space? If you are talking 4 or less, I think CFLs in clamp ons would probably be a good way to go! That way you can put some of that money into Air Pots, a quality pH meter like the PH-200 I use, and all the other little things that can quickly add up once you start growing.

I'm still leaning towards 40 and 65 watt CFLs. The 125 watt Feliz bulb I linked you too would not be any brighter than 2 65 watt bulbs in a "Y" adapter. In fact, the light coverage with the two CFLs would probably be better.

You should check out Old Med Man Goes Indoors journal. He uses TONS of hanging CFL bulbs in simple fixtures and gets great results. I too use a lot of them as side fills and they work great for that! If I had it to do over again, I would have skipped the 125 watt CFL light and fixture and just bought four 65 watters with clamp ons. I would have gotten more light for about half the price!

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Man, I just feel like a kid in a candy store, Goose. In both good and bad senses! It's great to have so many options, but I admit a little paralysis at the thought of PICKING THE WRONG FLAVOR OF CHARLESTON CHEW, and then having to wait a whole 'nother week for my allowance to come back. This is exactly what I was like as a child, btw. My mom still views me as such when it comes to making even basic choices. Anywhoooo...

I'll give a shout to Mr. Krip about LEDs for sure. It'd be good to talk to someone who hasn't been soured by cheap <name of auction site> trash. But like you're saying, it would be a lot of cash for a basically one-dimensional panel.

And the shipping costs for T5 panels! Woooooooo! Greners was like $200 for a 4'/6bulb panel plus bulbs, but $120 for freakin shipping! They did have an output of like 360w per fixture over a nice wide area though...

As for OldManMed, it looks to me like he used the CFLs for sprouting/early veg, but then switched to HID when he got his harem in the tent? So if I were to stick strictly to 45w double bulb fixtures, how many do you think I'd need per plant to get a good flower?

I can picture 3 girls with a fixture over each, a fixture facing each from the side, and maybe a fixture without the reflector stuck right in the middle of the triangle they create. That would be 14 5600k bulbs + 14 3200k bulbs + 7 fixtures for roughly $400, and a total output of 630w when using all the fixtures.

So it's a bright white Medusa - does that sound about right, or like total overkill? But I figure with all that in a little tent I'd HAVE to duct the air out somehow, right?

These 45w bulbs say they equate to 300w incandescent, but I should just count them as 45w though, yeah?

Alright, time to beat a path to Southwestern Utah of all places. Gotta watch various people run or wheel 26.4 miles while I stand around yelling encouragement and drink coffee. Back at ya soon!

 

[Goldengoose7]

Hey man!

Yep! You need to put your research hat on and start reading!

$120.00 for shipping? Are you sure about that? Where do you live? The shipping charges for my big 4x6 panel I bought from them was under $10.00 if I remember right. It wasn't $20.00 I know that! I'm in California as they are but still... There couldn't be that big a difference!

I don't think you need that many lights for 3 plants. I'd say one, possibly two 65 watt overheads and two 65 of 45 watt side fills one on each side should do it per plant. The lumens output is what you want to be looking at, and those high wattage standard fixture CFLs put out a pretty descent amount of lumens each.

As an example of how much light you need to raise and flower a great plant...

Take a look at my Medicinal Organic Nursery strain of Blue Cheese I raised late this last winter. It was sprouted and vegged under ONE 4x4 T5 panel from start to finish. It shared the light space with one other plant which is just about the max you can have under a single 4 foot panel if you flower them at 28" to 35" tall or larger.

The bud produced from this plant remains some of the best I have grown to date!

I hadn't bought all my CFL side fills back then and was basically using what I had originally purchased for overwintering my Red Jalapeno pepper hybrids which are my main growing passion. Cannabis has become a close second. When I decided to get more serious about indoor Cannabis growing (Been primarily sprouting indoors and then vegging and flowering outdoors), that is when I started buying more lights and ended up adding the second grow closet and the T48 cloner. The 4x6 T5 panel, the second 125 watt CFL fixture and all the other CFL lights I now use were purchased this year.

You might want to check amazon.com for the big T5 fixtures and see what their shipping charges are. I still can't imagine that $120.00 is right. Are you sure you didn't select 2nd day air or something like that? Geners shipping charges are some of the lowest of any grow site on the web, so I can't believe that the figure you were quoted is correct.

I don't feel that buying CFL single bulbs and fixtures would be a mistake no matter what you ultimately decide to use as your main lights. The reason I say that is because you can always find a use as sidefills or for setting up a secondary light station somewhere else in your house for jump starting a flowering session, raising another batch of seedlings, a cloning station you name it!

You said that POT didn't agree with you anymore?

You had mentioed that you were having a bad reaction to pot these days? I discovered after I started growing my own MMJ that you have a lot of control over the type of high you get by how long you let the plant flower before chopping. The longer you let it go, the mellower the high and the less of that anxiety effect you get. I HATE that feeling too, but I have never gotten that sensaion from anything I have grown myself because of two things...

1) Grow Indica which is known for having higher CBD and CBN concentration which counteract the racey/speedy/anxiety sensation.
2) Check the trichomes under a microscope and harvest when you are seeing close to a 40% ratio of AMBER trichomes. The clear ones contain HIGH undegraded THC. The cloudy ones are a mix of pure THC and CBD/CBNs and the AMBER is degraded THC which has broken down into CBD and CBN completely.

By controlling the length of the flowering cycle, you can pretty much eliminate ALL of those speedy and to me unpleasant aspects of the MJ high.

Since I began growing my own supply, I never suffer from a BAD TRIP, and my product's high feel more like a narcotic buzz... A couch lock body high that makes you feel VERY relaxed and takes away a lot of any chronic pain issues you may be dealing with.

I had a very serious knee cap dislocation and compression fracture of the tibial plateau back in 2004 and there was nerve damage. I have periods of very intense pain from this to this day and sometimes even 30mg of oxycodone isn't enough to get rid of it! Believe it or not, my strongest bud, like the BC bud pictured above has done more to relieve this pain for me than a double dose of 10/325 Percocet!

Sounds like you are headed off to some kind of marathon bike race or something? Have fun and stay safe!

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Yep - my Mom, brother, and uncle all took part in the St. George Marathon. 5am launch time for my uncle in the wheelchair. I haven't seen pre-sunrise from that side in quite a long time. Also got to spend all day yesterday with the whole crew in Zion. What a beautiful place (right up there with Yosemite, so no disrespect to CA).

Holy shit, those are AMAZING results. I feel like it's a inarguable recommendation for getting a few panels as sidefills. I dig that CFLs will also play a huge role, but it seems that having a few broad light sources is also a pretty good idea, so I think I'm going to go with a combo of the two. My tent finally arrived in my absence so I can't wait to put it together and get a mental image of how to set it up. This is better than Legos!

There definitely seems to be something up with the Greners shipping calculator. I just tried it again and it listed two different shipping costs _on the same receipt_, one for $78 and the other for $134. This is for 2 6-bulb T5s + 12 bulbs, going to suburban New Mexico, so somewhat sizable but well short of being huge and heavy. I guess I need to call them or something because I also can't believe that either amount would be correct. Anyway, I found the same fixtures on Amazon for a better price and free shipping, but it's still weird.

In my reading I've come across a few different people saying that increased resin production can result from exposing plants to UV. With this in mind, have you ever heard of people incorporating those UV bulbs meant for reptiles? Just a thought...

I'm intrigued by this technique for managing the type of high through what is essentially controlling the aging of the trichomes. I have a brother who works in the wine industry, selling European wine in Northern CA, ironically enough. It'll be cool to compare theories of harvesting and aging techniques with him, too, as I'm sure there must be some theoretical crossover. But anyway, you've talked me into at least considering the sampling of my own eventual wares. My gf has built up quite a resistance to the plant at this point so I can't get too mellow with it, but I'll see what I can manage. I will say it would be great to switch to something homemade for entertainment, but the last few times I've smoked have been really amazingly unpleasant so I can't build myself up too much. It is, however, VERY cool to be getting something of a mechanical knowledge regarding MJ, to see what kind of inputs lead to what kind of results. That as much as anything is what attracts me to this project to begin with.

Anyway, I'll be back in touch to have a more complete discussion when I get home. Be well out there!

 

[Goldengoose7]

Thanks for the update! Be safe coming home and post when you get back!

Glad amazon was able to deliver for you! I would call GRENERS about the shipping price thing. Unless they have radically changed their shipping charges since the last time I ordered for them, it can't be that much more than to California.

Sent from my iPod touch using Forum Runner

 

[ratatattooey]

Hey Donny, I'm new here myself, and just tagging along to learn from your questions. I'm sort of in the same boat as you. We're trying to find a way to help my wife with nearly paralyzing migraines. All the Doc's here want to do is turn her into a daymn Zombie with heavy narcotics, and I've pledged my life to the abating and killing of zombies.. so that's no good.

welcome, and good luck.

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Hey Ratattooey, my new OkieHomey! Thanks for checking in and following me as I ask poor Goose here a bunch of probably stupid questions. Also glad to hear that I'm not the only one nutty enough to think I can help a loved one by growing plants and committing misdemeanors. I applaud you for seeing things clearly, and for going about them the right way even if it ain't the legal way. Obviously feel free to ask any questions you see fit, and let me know if I can be of any particular use.

So I got home last night in spite of Mother Nature's attempts to ground my various flights. I returned to a grow room full of cardboard boxes containing many wonderful things, including a brand new Secret Jardin 3x3x6 tent, two Hydrofarm "designer" 4'/6 bulb T5 lights, some mycorrhizae powder, a bottle of kelp nutes, and a bunch of other toys. So obviously after cleaning the kitchen and taking out the recycling (I am simply amazed that I'm capable of being the neat and clean one in a relationship, as would be my parents...) I tore everything open and laid it all out.

The tent is amazing. While it is a fairly basic design when it comes down to it, I'm very pleased with the materials SJ uses. The thing is 99+% lightproof, with the only leaks I can see occurring around the zipper. It's sturdy, it's quite roomy for having such a tiny footprint, and it looks to have no trouble at all supporting the lights. The lights are also great at first blush. They can daisy chain, the strong hanging points allow for the vertical orientation my tent requires, the ballast allows for switching between 2, 4, and all 6 bulbs, and they throw a lot of light. The vertical orientation will also allow me to hang another 2'x8 bulb fixture if I need it, or a ton of CFLs like Goose has mentioned. Okay, enough about my Xmas in October.

During my absence I had no choice but to turn over the tending to my gf, who has even less horticultural experience than I do. She managed to kill one of the sprouts, though it was by far the weakest one of the bunch, and was probably on the way out anyway. It's the other five that I'm worried about, though. They are all exhibiting partial yellowing to varying degrees. Doing a search for "yellow leaves" in the forum turns up a huge variety of problems and so is almost too helpful. So if anyone can help me reduce the range of issues I might be seeing please say the word.

The yellowing is only occurring on the lowest set of leaves of each plant, and only from the tips to about halfway down the leaf. On some of the plants other leaves are looking a little washed out, but nothing anywhere near that degree. I watered the plants with straight RO before I left, and my gf watered them once during my absence.

Possible contributing factors: We've used a turkey baster in an attempt to keep the top layer of soil from being disturbed, with each plant getting about a baster's worth every two or three days. The soil itself is 50% Black Gold organic potting soil amended with 20% perlite, and 10% each castings, vermiculite, and compost. The plants were all gathered perhaps 3" under 2 26w CFLs in those chromed clamp lights, switched on 24/7. There is a tower fan blowing on them constantly at its lowest setting. My fear is that this is a lockout situation, as I still haven't gotten my ph test kit. It would be weird though since I haven't given them any nutes at all yet...

Any recommendations would make me feel a lot better. Thanks!

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Ugh. Just looked at my tracking for that damn PH tester and they STILL haven't sent it. I'll probably cancel the order. But seeing as how it was cheap non-branded junk anyway, I can avoid making that mistake twice and just get something good instead. Any great gear to recommend?