Making Your Own Nutrient Concentrates

[Diatomacious]

Just another excuse for the gov to bilk the taxpayer. The bigger the gov gets the smaller the private sector... it's a takeover thing. They fix the fact they grow food with chemical nutrients causing people to become sick with injecting people with chemicals to fix them back up... the whole time they are raking in the trillions of dollars away from the private sector ie free America. The biggest monopoly in the country and it's time to take it back down a notch.

 

[Skybound]

They actually cost something like $15 to $19 each, we just don't pay for them directly. Should have made them $100 each and told everyone that the government wouldn't be subsidizing the things "because not everyone really needed them. " Then, the same veg heads who have refused to get vaccinated would, instead, be raging in the streets because "They" were trying to keep them from getting vaccinated, lol. But that's meat for a different discussion.

My president and his administration seem to only be forcing the vax on American citizens, yet not doing so on the illegal entrants we're stopping and not stopping at the southern border. If my president and his team of esteemed scientists really were in fear of the quasi-deadly pandemic that's ravaged 0.03% of the poor souls that got sick while having comorbidities, I can only assume that they would be instructing his senile self to also be forcing the illegals to get vaxed before entry into the interior.

Do you judge by words or actions?

 

[TorturedSoul]

You're ignorance is refreshing; most of the people who post dumb shit on the Internet are actually stupid.

 

[Diatomacious]

You're ignorance is refreshing; most of the people who post dumb shit on the Internet are actually stupid.

Thanks... oh you were talking to Sky.

 

[Skybound]

Thanks... oh you were talking to Sky.

Pay no attention to the hundreds of thousands walking across the southern border totally exempt from being vaxed and only fixate on the ones that are supposed to be here, they're the only ones who can be infected.

When one is a member of the hive, all he hears is BBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. He must NEVER question the BBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, all he can do is repeat it.

 

[fallen99]

Today I made my first DIY solution, i followed your flower nutrient concetrations at first page, thank you guys,

 

[farside05]

Well @Skybound I finally made the leap and ordered salts to build my own. I'll make 4 bottles of different stock solutions for easier dosing. The results will look like this:

FN NUTES.jpg

• farside05
• Sep 28, 2021

FN PPM.jpg

• farside05
• Sep 28, 2021

 

[Skybound]

Well @Skybound I finally made the leap and ordered salts to build my own. I'll make 4 bottles of different stock solutions for easier dosing. The results will look like this:

FN NUTES.jpg

• farside05
• Sep 28, 2021

FN PPM.jpg

• farside05
• Sep 28, 2021

Unless you're excessively confident in your targets, I suggest not mixing AB solutions. With micros, we have to make preconfigured blends to be able to take advantage of the multiplication, but to apply the same approach to the AB mixes will also lock you in to that formulation and prevent you from being able to make adjustments once mixed. You know I'm a fun of flexibility and I get that by mixing each 2 part salt into it's own concentrate, just like you've done with potassium silicate. Each salt (excluding micros) made into their own concentrate affords you the ability to tweak TF out of your macro targets.

If you're relying on numbers gained from reverse engineering, Daniel Fernandez has clearly shown that info given on labels in most cases is substantially inaccurate which leads to inaccurate reverse engineering. The only known way to rev eng a nute line is to send said nute line to a lab for analysis. In another post on my journal on another forum he further explained that the homogeny of dry salts further confounds a lab analysis as there's no guarantee of an even mixture and that many samples from many sources of the same product would be needed to test to produce an accurate analysis.

Long story short, I suggest mixing each salt to their own jug, and make nutes that way till you confirm that your targets will produce the result you're after and once you're certain you'll not change your formula to then consider making the AB solution. Me personally though will never make an AB solution as I just don't like the thought of being locked in.

 

[Dr Fish]

Dam, I'm glad I didn't fall down this rabbit hole, I'm surly not up to these discussions.. Your threads are salvation for those who, by necessity, need to roll their own.. Because I listened to mostly, only one influencer, I've used only 1 fertilizer FNB.. I've had great success with it in hydro and coco/perlite.. My diy is mostly hands on projects....

 

[farside05]

Unless you're excessively confident in your targets, I suggest not mixing AB solutions. With micros, we have to make preconfigured blends to be able to take advantage of the multiplication, but to apply the same approach to the AB mixes will also lock you in to that formulation and prevent you from being able to make adjustments once mixed. You know I'm a fun of flexibility and I get that by mixing each 2 part salt into it's own concentrate, just like you've done with potassium silicate. Each salt (excluding micros) made into their own concentrate affords you the ability to tweak TF out of your macro targets.

If you're relying on numbers gained from reverse engineering, Daniel Fernandez has clearly shown that info given on labels in most cases is substantially inaccurate which leads to inaccurate reverse engineering. The only known way to rev eng a nute line is to send said nute line to a lab for analysis. In another post on my journal on another forum he further explained that the homogeny of dry salts further confounds a lab analysis as there's no guarantee of an even mixture and that many samples from many sources of the same product would be needed to test to produce an accurate analysis.

Long story short, I suggest mixing each salt to their own jug, and make nutes that way till you confirm that your targets will produce the result you're after and once you're certain you'll not change your formula to then consider making the AB solution. Me personally though will never make an AB solution as I just don't like the thought of being locked in.

Point taken, but I'll probably stick with the Part A Part B method for several reasons. I transfer my plants individually to a bathtub for watering, I don't want to be mucking about with also having to haul in 8 jugs of liquids in there too. There's not enough counter space for them. Same goes for the area where I store all my grow supplies. I wouldn't have a spot for that many jugs of stock solution. So that I don't waste too much product, or get too locked in to any formulation, I'm planning on making weaker stock solutions, and a quart at a time rather than gallons. I figure that It'll take the entire quart before I'd have enough time to pass judgement on the success or failure of a formulation.

 

[AverageGrower]

Hey Skybound. Specifically registered to ask you some questions after I found them online. Hope you have a second.

I recently switched to Jacks 321. I use reverse osmosis water. When I ran the 321 I had really bad purple stems. I dropped the Epsom and it seemed to improve but the plants still don’t look great.

I am seeing a phosphorus and/or calcium deficiency and possibly magnesium. Phosphorus is definitely deficient, but I don’t know if the rust spotting is calcium because some phosphorus deficiency photos online look like calcium rust spotting too.

Jacks seems to have sufficient phosphorus by the numbers but the ratio of phosphorus to magnesium is WAY different than canna or house and garden and those are coco specific nutes I’ve used without problems in the past.

Is it possible that the high levels of magnesium is causing lockouts? Or is it possible that the high level of magnesium is forcing the plant to use more phosphorus? I run jacks at 1.9ec @5.6 ph in the 3/2 ratio. Run off ph and ec are OK. Coco medium.

I also use 2 amino acid products from mbferts. Is it possible the amino acid products are causing the plant to require a higher feed due to the supposed massive increase in calcium uptake? I think I’ve read you need to compensate with a higher total feed EC and a bit extra boron when using some of these aminos.

Here’s an example of the phos def but I can grab the others too. This has not been a good experience with jacks so far.

 

[farside05]

Hey Skybound. Specifically registered to ask you some questions after I found them online. Hope you have a second.

I recently switched to Jacks 321. I use reverse osmosis water. When I ran the 321 I had really bad purple stems. I dropped the Epsom and it seemed to improve but the plants still don’t look great.

I am seeing a phosphorus and/or calcium deficiency and possibly magnesium. Phosphorus is definitely deficient, but I don’t know if the rust spotting is calcium because some phosphorus deficiency photos online look like calcium rust spotting too.

Jacks seems to have sufficient phosphorus by the numbers but the ratio of phosphorus to magnesium is WAY different than canna or house and garden and those are coco specific nutes I’ve used without problems in the past.

Is it possible that the high levels of magnesium is causing lockouts? Or is it possible that the high level of magnesium is forcing the plant to use more phosphorus? I run jacks at 1.9ec @5.6 ph in the 3/2 ratio. Run off ph and ec are OK. Coco medium.

I also use 2 amino acid products from mbferts. Is it possible the amino acid products are causing the plant to require a higher feed due to the supposed massive increase in calcium uptake? I think I’ve read you need to compensate with a higher total feed EC and a bit extra boron when using some of these aminos.

Here’s an example of the phos def but I can grab the others too. This has not been a good experience with jacks so far.

I know the questions weren't directed towards me, but the odds of an actually Phosphorus deficiency are extremely slim. I'll run with as little as 20ppm Phosphorus all the way through bloom and have no issue. Plants actually use very little of it. High P requirements, especially during bloom, is a misnomer, along with purple stems meaning a Phosphorus deficiency. Most times purple stems are strain related and nute related.

I know you say 1.9EC, but EC in and of itself is really a pointless number. I want to know how many ppm's of each specific element makes up that EC. As an example, 1.9 EC of a 9-3-6 fertilizer is not the same as 1.9 EC Of a 3-12-6 fertilizer. If you tell me how many grams per gallon of each Jack's product you are using, I'll calculate it out for you. That will probably give us a better indication where things may be a miss.

 

[AverageGrower]

I know the questions weren't directed towards me, but the odds of an actually Phosphorus deficiency are extremely slim. I'll run with as little as 20ppm Phosphorus all the way through bloom and have no issue. Plants actually use very little of it. High P requirements, especially during bloom, is a misnomer, along with purple stems meaning a Phosphorus deficiency. Most times purple stems are strain related and nute related.

I know you say 1.9EC, but EC in and of itself is really a pointless number. I want to know how many ppm's of each specific element makes up that EC. As an example, 1.9 EC of a 9-3-6 fertilizer is not the same as 1.9 EC Of a 3-12-6 fertilizer. If you tell me how many grams per gallon of each Jack's product you are using, I'll calculate it out for you. That will probably give us a better indication where things may be a miss.

I can have an odd way of communicating, so let me explain the whole deal. I have a 40g res that I fill up with about 30gal ro. Then I have a separate 5 gallon bucket with ro I dump 180g of the base mix into. Stir that up real well (there is always some kind of sediment at the bottom, doesn’t really matter how much or how little jacks I use or how long I stir it…) then after that I add 0.25g per gallon of hydrolyzed whey from mbferts and stir that up (this stuff is new to me never ran it before, they say it’s just a ton of l-aminos). I’ll let it marinate for a bit and stir it up a few more times over 10 minutes then I’ll dump it in the res and turn my pump on while I make the cal.

When I make the cal I do the same, clean RO, mix 120g cal nit (this never has sediment, super clean) then I mix 0.25g per gallon glycine (another amino acid) into the calnit and mix that up and let it chill for a bit. Then I dump it into the res. The res starts out 2.8ish (edit) EC or so, until the rest of res is filled to the top with ro and at the top (40gal) the final reading is about 2.1ec. The 1.9 is from me diluting it even more trying to figure this out using 5gallon buckets with different ratios even (3/3, 3.6/3.1 are some I tried that were more calnit heavy, with different dilutions, but didn’t see any difference, maybe got worse even) and I’ve gone as low as 1.6 and as high as 2.3ec and they always look the same like it’s not the strength but a ratio issue or something I’m adding even though aminos should be a good thing and always were in the past but I didn’t use them as often before and I’ve never even tried the whey.

For reference I have ran HG anywhere from 1.8-2.6ec without issues, I’ve had salt build up like crazy messing around with the higher ecs and the worst you get is n tox (170ppm at 10ml) never deficient just dark as hell, but they run same phos ppm (@10ml per gal of hg, jacks is 49.9 vs 44.9) almost same calcium (114ppm jacks vs 109 HG) but the stand out to me is the 1% magnesium in HG vs the 6% in jacks base ( jacks runs 120% ppm more and that’s not including the Epsom which brings that total up 188%+ ppm more than HG) and I mean doesn’t it sound ridiculous to say jacks needs that much more magnesium than a coco formula I know works cause I’ve used it for more than a decade? We laugh at people that use P boosters with high P levels in flower for the same reason dont we? But I’m a bottle baby, i fix things with bottles not individual ingredients so I’m a little lost now I just want my green plants back and I want to make jacks work cause it is a good value but I’m not happy lol.

I’m only mentioning HG (and 4ml calmag+ In RO) because I want to get this jacks close to that as that’s my baseline for a good looking veg plant. Also some will balk at my EC levels but again, I’ve literally never had an issue with other lines. I’ve ran HG on ro with calmag, tap and even tap AND calmag together as experiment and never had any real issues like this. I even brought the scope out to look for bugs cause it seemed like nothing is making changes.

Edit: forgot to include final grams are 4.5/3 base to cal nit for 2.1ec and also cause I jacked my math up on the percentages.

 

[AverageGrower]

Here a pic from under the scope. What deficiency will cause the leaf to malform and crack? I circled the cracked areas. They are only visible under a microscope. Also included numbers for 4.5/3 jacks and how it compares to lab tested HG that I ran at 10ml gal.

 

[nortti]

Really big thank you Skybound! Deep in the rabbit hole learning hydrobuddy,
enrolled in school to study chemistry. Made an account just to say thank you!

 

[farside05]

I can have an odd way of communicating, so let me explain the whole deal. I have a 40g res that I fill up with about 30gal ro. Then I have a separate 5 gallon bucket with ro I dump 180g of the base mix into. Stir that up real well (there is always some kind of sediment at the bottom, doesn’t really matter how much or how little jacks I use or how long I stir it…) then after that I add 0.25g per gallon of hydrolyzed whey from mbferts and stir that up (this stuff is new to me never ran it before, they say it’s just a ton of l-aminos). I’ll let it marinate for a bit and stir it up a few more times over 10 minutes then I’ll dump it in the res and turn my pump on while I make the cal.

When I make the cal I do the same, clean RO, mix 120g cal nit (this never has sediment, super clean) then I mix 0.25g per gallon glycine (another amino acid) into the calnit and mix that up and let it chill for a bit. Then I dump it into the res. The res starts out 2.8ish (edit) EC or so, until the rest of res is filled to the top with ro and at the top (40gal) the final reading is about 2.1ec. The 1.9 is from me diluting it even more trying to figure this out using 5gallon buckets with different ratios even (3/3, 3.6/3.1 are some I tried that were more calnit heavy, with different dilutions, but didn’t see any difference, maybe got worse even) and I’ve gone as low as 1.6 and as high as 2.3ec and they always look the same like it’s not the strength but a ratio issue or something I’m adding even though aminos should be a good thing and always were in the past but I didn’t use them as often before and I’ve never even tried the whey.

For reference I have ran HG anywhere from 1.8-2.6ec without issues, I’ve had salt build up like crazy messing around with the higher ecs and the worst you get is n tox (170ppm at 10ml) never deficient just dark as hell, but they run same phos ppm (@10ml per gal of hg, jacks is 49.9 vs 44.9) almost same calcium (114ppm jacks vs 109 HG) but the stand out to me is the 1% magnesium in HG vs the 6% in jacks base ( jacks runs 120% ppm more and that’s not including the Epsom which brings that total up 188%+ ppm more than HG) and I mean doesn’t it sound ridiculous to say jacks needs that much more magnesium than a coco formula I know works cause I’ve used it for more than a decade? We laugh at people that use P boosters with high P levels in flower for the same reason dont we? But I’m a bottle baby, i fix things with bottles not individual ingredients so I’m a little lost now I just want my green plants back and I want to make jacks work cause it is a good value but I’m not happy lol.

I’m only mentioning HG (and 4ml calmag+ In RO) because I want to get this jacks close to that as that’s my baseline for a good looking veg plant. Also some will balk at my EC levels but again, I’ve literally never had an issue with other lines. I’ve ran HG on ro with calmag, tap and even tap AND calmag together as experiment and never had any real issues like this. I even brought the scope out to look for bugs cause it seemed like nothing is making changes.

Edit: forgot to include final grams are 4.5/3 base to cal nit for 2.1ec and also cause I jacked my math up on the percentages.

In my estimation, you're over feeding at 4.5g Part A and 3g Part B per gallon.

jacks 4.5total.jpg

• farside05
• Nov 7, 2021

I'd drop back to 3.7g Part A and 2.5g Part B per gallon (which is actually the recommended amounts by Peters/Jacks). I would not add any Epsom Salts at all. There's already plenty Magnesium and Sulfur in Part A and there's no need for any additional. The resulting mix would look like:

jacks 3.7.jpg

• farside05
• Nov 7, 2021

jacks 3.7total.jpg

• farside05
• Nov 7, 2021

 

[AverageGrower]

In my estimation, you're over feeding at 4.5g Part A and 3g Part B per gallon.

jacks 4.5total.jpg

• farside05
• Nov 7, 2021

I'd drop back to 3.7g Part A and 2.5g Part B per gallon (which is actually the recommended amounts by Peters/Jacks). I would not add any Epsom Salts at all. There's already plenty Magnesium and Sulfur in Part A and there's no need for any additional. The resulting mix would look like:

jacks 3.7.jpg

• farside05
• Nov 7, 2021

jacks 3.7total.jpg

• farside05
• Nov 7, 2021

Edit 1: sorry for the long ass post again and again

Thank you for making those charts for me. They are much cleaner then excel spread sheets and more presentable and easier to read quickly with accuracy. It’s a shame my posts aren’t as good and tend to drag on forever on tangents lol

Couple questions on your post. For the jacks recipe, is it 3.7/2.5 now? I was always under the impression it was 3.6/2.4/1.2 per gal? I’ve heard jacks say 1.1g in a video recipe and then publish 1.2g elsewhere and now we are creeping up a little more. So is the “correct” amount of Epsom actually 1.25g to keep an even 321 ratio assuming one is going to use it? Or is the 321 ratio just a general idea and not exact? Should the 3.7g actually be 3.75g? I think I’m just misunderstanding the whole ratio and grams per gallon relationship and then on top of that there is a different numerical value for the actual npk ratio. Idk maybe I’m overthinking it.

Everything I’ve been doing is just based off making sure my ratio is 3 parts, 2 parts, 1 part. So based my mix on 4.5/3g to get my desired ec as it’s always been my comfort zone. I’m not against accepting this as lockout. You’re correct in your opinion, i AM indeed a chronic over feeder, actually on purpose though, because I cycle my moms a ton due to little space and lots of varieties. I find my clones stay much greener and healthier after cutting and as a side effect root earlier and then take off like a freight train.

i am going to make a test I think. I am going to mix up the “HG Jacks Hack” formula I came up with based off the lab test information on the manicbotanix website that I’ve been meaning to try out but never did cause I’m a bottle baby (shout out that dude, holy epic amount of work and extremely detailed). Then I can correct my Jacks mix using the 3.7/2.5 ratio here and test them against each other see if I’m screwing something up here.

These are examples of my HG cocos maintained plants under 246w of t5 retrofitted leds in the closet and a 630de cmh in the tent. The og came from the led closet as a medium aged mom, the shorter affy type with the odd leaves came from the tent prior to flower. Same food, just whatever 9-10ml per gallon and tap (these particular examples but I’m back on ro now). Sometimes 2.2 and other times 2.4-6 because my tap water moves over 0.3 points but I usually start high 2.2-2.3 was regular at the same range and add water during the week which dilutes it but spends most time above 2.0. When it gets to like 2.0 I start looking into correcting which means I stop diluting. If you guys are on bean basement some of this may look familiar but yes this is my old baseline. Some may say overfed but I like the safety margin I keep on them. I need to get my jacks like this before I feel comfortable to flower again and then I can improve from there as I understand this ratio puzzle we’re all playing with.

Edit 2: The “Ghost1PureKush” in the blue 18oz solo cup looks dark but it’s not it’s just the camera flash and a dark ass kitchen I don’t let light into. I think it was 46-48” tall plant (counter top is almost 3’) in a 18oz solo cup eating tons of HG under 246w of led in a closet lol. Coco and HG and tap or Ro/calmag are a match made in heaven lol.

Edit 3: What about K to Mg ratio? I notice HG cocos is a 5.9:1 k:mg ratio, Athena is a 5.5:1 for veg formula and 6.6:1 for flower, jacks is….3.4:1 w/o Epsom and even worse with it. Mg and K don’t play well together. Do I need more k to balance the mg and ca? HG added 39% more K to their coco recipe (now at 251ppm at 10ml/g) and lowered their Mg by 23% and their Ca by 14.5% when they revised their formula…my question is how much K does coco actually put out during breakdown??? I’m almost positive the whole “low k” coco fertilizer requirement is straight being misunderstood or misinterpreted for coco applications. My most flavorful, fattest most requested flower by probably a margin of 3:1 vs all my runs EVER, was the run fed contrary to the coco K argument. Granted that was flower and this is veg but HG uses the same formula for both… How can potassium build up in coco anyways when when we use ca and mg to displace k because they are double positive?? Is jacks displacing the already low amount of K (relative to known good coco formulas) with all that damn mg??? K is known for regulating transpiration…is this why we see coco grows with super dry looking buds and leaves in late in flower from K starvation? You know the type I’m talking about, the one no one knocks cause they like they guy but his weed is starting to fox tail and smokes black as hell lol. Canna had an interesting approach. They use SUPER LOW K (61ppm) but they also use 80ppm P which I BELIEVE is to force feed the plant Mg so it keeps away from the crazy small K supply and then they offer their Pk. Probably the only company actually using a PK correctly lol. What do you think??

Hope nobody gets pissed I can discuss this for days with 100 page posts. There’s nobody for me to talk to about this in real life lol.