Planning stage

[DRM Ranch]

Socal, our electric is set by useage, more use = more expensive.

We are in the top tier, mainly because I have reptiles to heat and that consumes a lot of electricity.

 

[Scottmaine]

Ahhhhh that says it all,I'm bout 3000 miles east of ya.

 

[Scottmaine]

So I've done some initial figures and here they are, mind you 16x16 fully insulated split in half for flower and veg/storage :
Building materials. 1987.77
Lights (3 x 600w hid digital ) 750.00
Mylar (50"x150' 2mil) 83.00
Heatets (1500wx2) 80.00
Insulation R19. 310.00
Dehumidifier. 100.00
2 steel pre hung doors. 260.00
Est. Electric work. 1500.00
Tax. 196.35

Total: 5267.12

Est. Running cost per month. 130.00
Not figured in : soil,pots,fert and fans plus tables and shelves.
Wow!!

 

[DRM Ranch]

Wow on that building materials figure, is this going to be an out building or room in the basement (wonderful eastern home features we don't typically have)?

We are in the process of planning a small outbuilding of similar size; insulated 2x6 walls, two 4x8 flower rooms, two 4x4 veg rooms, cloning desk/work station with sink at the end of a central hall.

For us the big ticket item is the HVAC, it gets hot and cold here. The structure itself while way over engineered (plywood sheeted both in and out for airtightness) is pretty easy on the pocket.

Total costs are always a bit daunting to look at, so I just kind of take it in small chunks.

 

[Scottmaine]

Yes drm this will be an out building. All 2x6 framing with r19 in walls and ceiling. Ton of electrical, plywood all walls ,ceiling roof. Metal on roof. What else....

 

[Scottmaine]

Hey all just heard bout some led light that covers 5x5 area and can grow 6 footers indoor, 16 weeks done . Any news or knowledge on this all? Cost 2 grand each . ???? THANKS GUYS

 

[iwltfum]

Hey all just heard bout some led light that covers 5x5 area and can grow 6 footers indoor, 16 weeks done . Any news or knowledge on this all? Cost 2 grand each . ???? THANKS GUYS

From what I hear, LED's that are that big put off more heat than their HID counterparts. So much that each diode needs it's own heatsink. Making it hot-running and a little inefficient unless you have proper cooling for that amount of heat.

 

[Scottmaine]

So just like hid you need cooling? I now believe that they are talking about diamond series. Thought they ran alot cooler? Like I said I'm 20 yrs outa the loop iwltfum lol.

 

[iwltfum]

I'm out of the loop on LED's too Scottmaine. I should have made that clear. I have done a little research on them though and I learn things about them just from posts on this site alot. That's just what I've heard from other people. I didn't base that on any facts. If you start a thread called "LED that covers 5x5 area?" or something like that, I'm sure you will get a knowledgeable response, there are tons of LED users on this website, most of whom are generally very willing to provide some facts on the subject.

 

[Scottmaine]

Thanks iwltfum, I don't know I'm just a middle aged guy trying to grab the next gold bar........I just can't help but think that this is it and well .........I use to do this at a younger age and now it's "legal " and I need to get on the train. Just not sure where to start, but I do have ww seeds coming and that is where I will start as long as the wife can handle it lol still think I will go hid 600w.

 

[DRM Ranch]

There are so many possible ways to grow these days that it is likely best to simply pick a method and go with it.

I'm going T-5 for veg and flower this time around, next run I'll toss in a couple 1000w HIDs for the flower and still use my T-5s for veg. Ultimate goals are T-5 to 600w hid in veg to 1000w hid for flower.

The main deal is to have a plan that you can follow.

OP, I love the potential of 2x6 walls, and if you are fully sheeting them you might consider the use of 24" stud spacing to slightly reduce costs and increased insulation efficiency.

As for the wiring, I pretty much assume every outlet is going to power 2000w and build accordingly. And because I don't like to troubleshoot electric I always put each outlet on its own circuit breaker.

 

[Scottmaine]

I hear ya drm. On the 2ft oc, doesn't cut the cost in lumber enough to offset the insulation cost. Really pennies ta dollars ,kinda like tripping over a dollar to pick up a dime lol. I see alot of people just paint it white, why not mylar? Cost of paint nowadays I would think mylar is cheaper. I believe more outlets the better.

 

[Scottmaine]

So I've taken the first step on paper work and I'm surprised to say that it's easy and the dhhs is very helpful. Decided to start with 7x9 room and then bam! Now I have patient ! Now the room isn't big enough ! It's a good problem, I think lol let ya know how it goes and what s up later

 

[DRM Ranch]

Yield per unit of area over time is something that can be improved with experience.

I would suggest dialing in a strain prior to moving on to a new one; with what amounts to an infinite combination of growing factors getting things dialed in is likely going to return your investment faster.

Part of my own plan is to progressively eliminate environmental variables that effect my grow, that way I have the ability to isolate issues faster and more effectively.

I have no illusions that this will happen overnight, I just don't have the funds to do that all at once, however I recognize that being able to control, monitor, and track more data points will result in a marked improvement in my grow.

I look forward to seeing your progress.

 

[Dave Groomer]

From what I hear, LED's that are that big put off more heat than their HID counterparts. So much that each diode needs it's own heatsink. Making it hot-running and a little inefficient unless you have proper cooling for that amount of heat.

Not true. LEDs give off less heat. You don't have wasted spectrums, only the light you need so it is more effecient. They don't have to cost a fortune either. The Mars-Hydro do a great job at a reasonable price. As for 6'ers My tent is only 6' so I train my plants to stay shorter and bushier. Look at the Mars-Hydro 1600.

 

[DRM Ranch]

Not true. LEDs give off less heat. You don't have wasted spectrums, only the light you need so it is more effecient. They don't have to cost a fortune either. The Mars-Hydro do a great job at a reasonable price. As for 6'ers My tent is only 6' so I train my plants to stay shorter and bushier. Look at the Mars-Hydro 1600.

While 1000W of HID may well waste some energy on unused spectrum generation they produce no more or no less heat than a 1000W LED lamp.

The argument for LED is that you need less Watts to generate the same usable light spectrum, and that is true, however the difference in LED fixture design does not allow for efficient cooling as the fixtures grow in size/output.

It isn't so much a matter of which has a better light spectrum or heat output but which is designed to allow removal of the heat that is generated.

Give me a 1000W LED fixture that has the ability to pass air through the fixture and remove any heat produced and I am on board with LED.

Otherwise LED is simply a novel method that has little place in an environment where the ability to control every aspect of the environment is of the highest importance.

 

[Dave Groomer]

While 1000W of HID may well waste some energy on unused spectrum generation they produce no more or no less heat than a 1000W LED lamp.

The argument for LED is that you need less Watts to generate the same usable light spectrum, and that is true, however the difference in LED fixture design does not allow for efficient cooling as the fixtures grow in size/output.

It isn't so much a matter of which has a better light spectrum or heat output but which is designed to allow removal of the heat that is generated.

Give me a 1000W LED fixture that has the ability to pass air through the fixture and remove any heat produced and I am on board with LED.

Otherwise LED is simply a novel method that has little place in an environment where the ability to control every aspect of the environment is of the highest importance.

I have 2 tents. The run consistently at 84 degrees with a fan pulling from both tents. Everything is locked in. I am not sure why you would say that LEDs are a novelty with no way to control the environment. That makes no sense. You control your environment with your fans, dehumidifies, filters etc irregardless of your light source.

 

[Dave Groomer]

Here is something that was just put in News.

 

[DRM Ranch]

The point is this, why should a grower have to use additional air conditioning to cool lights when they could use a far more efficient isolated blow through system?

When efficiency is LEDs main selling point it would seem that heat removal would have been better addressed from the outset.

With HID lighting that allows a fan to cool the lights, the AC system load is less. The same would be true for LED.

Non air cooled HID lights are as much a novelty as current unducted LED lights. Unducted fixtures of any type are simply early iterations that need heat management improvement.

Your small two tent situation is doable simply because of its small scale, upsizing that situation would result in an ever increasing need for air-conditioning that is very costly.

It is more cost effective to move heat away from the grow than to cool that heated air, especially when the environment needs to be at a certain temperature that is always below that produced by a fixture of nearly any wattage.

The blow through system you likely use is I assume drawing cooled home air, and while you may not see a huge increase in power consumption from your homes AC unit, it does have to work more because of the heat generated by the lights.

1000W = 3412BTU/hr, LEDs don't avoid this math, so while a 1000W LED may produce a higher PAR reading than a 1000W HID you still need to deal with the heat they generate. Ducted LEDs would be a huge advancement toward stepping out of the realm of novalty and into real useful pieces of grow equipment.

That's my stance, I'm not against LEDs I am simply pointing out a fundamental flaw in the current design of the fixtures.

Fixing the problem is simple, and perhaps the industry will move in that direction in the future. If they did I could see how they would replace the current HID lights most often used.

 

[Dave Groomer]

The point is this, why should a grower have to use additional air conditioning to cool lights when they could use a far more efficient isolated blow through system?

When efficiency is LEDs main selling point it would seem that heat removal would have been better addressed from the outset.

With HID lighting that allows a fan to cool the lights, the AC system load is less. The same would be true for LED.

Non air cooled HID lights are as much a novelty as current unducted LED lights. Unducted fixtures of any type are simply early iterations that need heat management improvement.

Your small two tent situation is doable simply because of its small scale, upsizing that situation would result in an ever increasing need for air-conditioning that is very costly.

It is more cost effective to move heat away from the grow than to cool that heated air, especially when the environment needs to be at a certain temperature that is always below that produced by a fixture of nearly any wattage.

The blow through system you likely use is I assume drawing cooled home air, and while you may not see a huge increase in power consumption from your homes AC unit, it does have to work more because of the heat generated by the lights.

1000W = 3412BTU/hr, LEDs don't avoid this math, so while a 1000W LED may produce a higher PAR reading than a 1000W HID you still need to deal with the heat they generate. Ducted LEDs would be a huge advancement toward stepping out of the realm of novalty and into real useful pieces of grow equipment.

That's my stance, I'm not against LEDs I am simply pointing out a fundamental flaw in the current design of the fixtures.

Fixing the problem is simple, and perhaps the industry will move in that direction in the future. If they did I could see how they would replace the current HID lights most often used.

The article the I linked shows a 15000 sq ft facility that is now saving $45,000 a year in energy. That is ALL energy heating cooling lights etc. That is not a small set up like mine.