Pros and cons of topping from the 1st cut on up

[kikikopa]

Greetings and salutations to all forum members.

I've been debating whether to make any additional cuts on a plant that has been topped. I've been researching the topic and have not found the information that I'm looking for regarding the pros and cons of doing any additional topping after the initial cut. This is my first time engaging in this type of high-stress training as I've only done low-stress training previously so I need more knowledge to understand this process.

I would love to hear from folks who've topped their plants and what their corresponding result was. I'm interested in learning more about how each cut affects the plant and what the advantages or disadvantages are starting from the first cut and including any subsequent cuts.

So if you're an advocate of doing a particular number of topping cuts to your plant, would you be so kind as to please explain why you do what you do i.e. one cut is better because..., two cuts are better because..., three cuts are better because..., etc.

It can go like this: Hey kikikopa, I'm a long-time member of the 4-Cut Club and here's why I think four cuts are the optimal number of cuts... Something along those lines that includes the pros and cons. This information could/may/might be out there already but I've not be able to locate specifically what I'm looking for so I think that this would be helpful to all growers. You know the old adage: "measure twice, cut once"? I want to apply that principle to my plants with the knowledge that what I'm doing is warranted with all the potential risks and rewards taken into account.

 

[013]

cant speak for everyone but I’d say most gardeners here do only one or two toppings…. once you have topped a plant 1 time its broken the apical dominance so there is no need to top again necessarily, but of course you can continue topping as much as you like but yep its high stress training and yep topping will defs slow the plant down for a recovery period….

now it’s time to train the limbs out like a manifold or quadline with tie downs to build a flat open frame with the goal of having an even canopy.

here is a manifold in ChefDGreens journal Manifold
and here is the Quadsquad which is an open quadline group thread QuadSquad

since you know lst - recognize that no topping / using lst does not require any recovery period yet still breaks apical dominance by redistributing growth to the entire plant not just the top (apical meristem)

drop a pic of your girl & maybe we can better advise you

 

[garybo]

@ 013 basically nailed it.

My reasoning for topping serves several purposes; More bud, a short bushy plant and better sun penetration.

Besides topping the main stem, I often top the side branches as well, causing the plant to bush out and produce additional buds.

In addition, for outdoor growing, topping allows sun-light to penetrate the plant in a more equal manner over the course of the day as the sun moves.

When topping I count up to the fourth node and snip about an inch or 2 up from that area. After a few weeks, I further top the two dominant stems from my last cut follow the same procedure. This spring I'm toying on the idea of topping an additional time.

Never top during flowering, only during veg state.

 

[Nunyabiz]

My preferred number of toppings is zero.
I've never topped a cannabis plant, I prefer to just bend them over starting between 12 to 18 days from seed.
Accomplishes the same thing except I get to keep that main bud and virtually no slow down in growth.

 

[013]

manifold sometimes called mainline uses only 2 main limbs and all the other growth tips rise out from there, whereas quadline uses 4 main limbs. Basically these types of training are to build a frame to open up and spread the growth away from being all clustered together in the center.

ditto Nunya bending or lst does same thing breaking apical dominance yet no down time.

wanted to add topping an autoflower is a whole different animal. Yes autos can be topped, but done wrong it can permanently stunt her & you get tiny 1 hit bowl budsickle at harvest. Topping on auto should be done no later than day 21 based on my study here

In addition to spreading the plant out wide another method is lollipopping the lowers to prevent larf (lower popcorn buds) so all the resources goes to big colas at the top of the canopy.

 

[kikikopa]

cant speak for everyone but I’d say most gardeners here do only one or two toppings…. once you have topped a plant 1 time its broken the apical dominance so there is no need to top again necessarily, but of course you can continue topping as much as you like but yep its high stress training and yep topping will defs slow the plant down for a recovery period….

now it’s time to train the limbs out like a manifold or quadline with tie downs to build a flat open frame with the goal of having an even canopy.

here is a manifold in ChefDGreens journal Manifold
and here is the Quadsquad which is an open quadline group thread QuadSquad

since you know lst - recognize that no topping / using lst does not require any recovery period yet still breaks apical dominance by redistributing growth to the entire plant not just the top (apical meristem)

drop a pic of your girl & maybe we can better advise you

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Per your request, I've attached a photo of Tutankhamen from 4 days ago. She was topped on 12/8 and is currently on day 55. She is in living soil in a one gallon pot and will move up to a 5 gallon when she is ready (Thanks Emilya!). She is grown outdoors and currently receives ~ 12 hours of sunshine per day.

Merry Christmas!

 

[Zephyrs]

I have topped and took cuttings off the 4 lowest branches for clone purposes. And I have seen no ill effects. As long as she is healthy to begin with... And @013 Nailed It! It's all about stopping the apical dominance. Vegative recovery time is important though, before flip to flowering stage. JM2C

 

[013]

I would begin low stress training on her…. be right back lemme find tutorial link.>>>> InTheShed Low stress training <<<<< FYI - hyperlinks appear in green text here at 420

 

[kikikopa]

Many thanks to the members who've shared their insights. I will use the knowledge that I've gained to improve my results and perhaps one day I can return the favor to the group with some fresh insights of my own.

 

[Seniorweeder]

Hello grow friend,, I jut stumbled on this thread, and wanted to add my 2 cents. I have only been growing for about 2 years and have to say I like to experiment and try different methods. I am a "Topping Junkie" . I have had nothing but great luck topping my outdoor grows and mostly good luck with my indoor "Auto-flowers",, I did stunt one of my Auto's by hitting her more than once,,, only one time from here on.

But being that I am growing "stealth" where I live I did a nice grow in my Veggie garden. To try and keep my babies under my 6' fence I actually topped them maybe 6 times. I wait til after a fully developed 4th node,, then hit every main stalk again when they are very developed and ONLY in Veg! They shrubbed up just like I wanted. Here are some pix of my "AC/DC" and "Blackwater". Also to control height I did use a bunch of LST which gave me total control. Whatcha think??? Happy New Year Grow Bro!

 

[Zephyrs]

Hello grow friend,, I jut stumbled on this thread, and wanted to add my 2 cents. I have only been growing for about 2 years and have to say I like to experiment and try different methods. I am a "Topping Junkie" . I have had nothing but great luck topping my outdoor grows and mostly good luck with my indoor "Auto-flowers",, I did stunt one of my Auto's by hitting her more than once,,, only one time from here on.

But being that I am growing "stealth" where I live I did a nice grow in my Veggie garden. To try and keep my babies under my 6' fence I actually topped them maybe 6 times. I wait til after a fully developed 4th node,, then hit every main stalk again when they are very developed and ONLY in Veg! They shrubbed up just like I wanted. Here are some pix of my "AC/DC" and "Blackwater". Also to control height I did use a bunch of LST which gave me total control. Whatcha think??? Happy New Year Grow Bro!

Oh yeah, Very nice looking! How did your Blackwater strain turn out??? It's on my wish list for next Seed purchase! As I've heard Blackwater is really potent!?.

 

[Seniorweeder]

Oh yeah, Very nice looking! How did your Blackwater strain turn out??? It's on my wish list for next Seed purchase! As I've heard Blackwater is really potent!?.

The Ac/Dc is very low buzz but nice for this old man, as I don't have a huge tolerance, and just AMAZING for most of my pain issues,, i.e. neck/back pain. The Blackwater was donated to me a couple years ago and it hermed on me (light leak) but I have a lifetime supply of seeds "YIPPEE".. it is a bit heavy but just amazing high,,, it's uplifting (Wife and I laugh a lot on it). It smells to high Heavens at an early age, so make note. But it is awesome almost like a grilled Orange to me.. Was hard to hide the smell in my garden last Summer. Hope this helps!!!!!

 

[kikikopa]

Hello grow friend,, I jut stumbled on this thread, and wanted to add my 2 cents. I have only been growing for about 2 years and have to say I like to experiment and try different methods. I am a "Topping Junkie" . I have had nothing but great luck topping my outdoor grows and mostly good luck with my indoor "Auto-flowers",, I did stunt one of my Auto's by hitting her more than once,,, only one time from here on.

But being that I am growing "stealth" where I live I did a nice grow in my Veggie garden. To try and keep my babies under my 6' fence I actually topped them maybe 6 times. I wait til after a fully developed 4th node,, then hit every main stalk again when they are very developed and ONLY in Veg! They shrubbed up just like I wanted. Here are some pix of my "AC/DC" and "Blackwater". Also to control height I did use a bunch of LST which gave me total control. Whatcha think??? Happy New Year Grow Bro!

Lookin' good fellow old guy! Thanks for adding your two cents.

A couple more days and I'll do the final transplant to 5 gallon pots and then I'll decide whether to make more cuts or just LST. I'm already 60 days into this grow and still have some more vegging so I'm not looking to extend the time frame too much. I grow outside and totally dependent on the sun so no control over that.

What size are those pots and how long did you keep them in veg?

 

[kikikopa]

The Blackwater was donated to me a couple years ago and it hermed on me (light leak)

If I may be so bold, how did the light leak happen?

I still don't quite understand how the 12 hours of darkness thing works. I was told that you need to keep the plants on that schedule right up to harvest but in the natural world it never gets totally dark so I don't understand why some light would be a problem after they've been in flowering to the point where the buds are almost fully developed.

I had a hermie issue last year with a couple of sativa dominants but not with the hybrids and I used the same approach on both. I start them flowering by keeping them in absolute darkness for 12 hours and continue to do that until the buds mature. Once they mature, I then have to keep an eye out for mold or as they say, hongos, so I can't leave them in the darkroom due to it's higher humidity level or else it could be a disaster.

So again I ask: Do you need to keep the plants on a strict 12 hours of absolute darkness right up until harvest and if so, how does that jibe with plants that grow outside and never truly get any absolute darkness?

 

[SmokingWings]

I still don't quite understand how the 12 hours of darkness thing works.

It is 12 hours of uninterrupted light that makes the marijuana plant grow flowers. Giving the plant 6 hours of dark and then 1 1/2 hours of light followed by 6 hours of dark will not work. What I have found by looking up why the plant flowers is that after approx 12 hours of uninterrupted dark the plant starts to form a hormone and the growing tips (Apical Meristems) will start to form flowers.

I find it hard to believe that Marijuana plants are so sensitive or so magical that getting a few minutes of light by opening the door or taking a photo is enough to stop the female flower process and forcing the plant to start producing male flowers instead. How does the plant get rid of all that flowering hormone so dang fast.

Yes, female Cannabis plants will also form some male flowers, usually late in the flowering cycle when or if the plant has not been pollinated. This has been observed and then mentioned by well-known and long time members for years. If the plant was a true hermaphrodite it would be showing signs of both male and female flowers much sooner than 8 weeks after flowering starts.

There are cases of female plants producing a lot of female flowers and then male flowers several weeks after the switch to 12 hours of dark and that is closer to a hermaphrodite than a plant forming male flowers after 7-9 weeks.

I don't understand why some light would be a problem after they've been in flowering to the point where the buds are almost fully developed.

I don't understand that either. It does not make any sense. Human nature being what it is, I figure that some growers noticed seeds because of their plant forming a few male flowers and had to blame something. Easiest thing is to blame the light leak or opening the tent door.

I have grown plants from clones off of the same Papaya mother. The clones grown in a closet with light leaks did produce a few male flowers late in the flowering stage. Some clones which were grown outside and got some light from the back porch of the next door house. They got some light from the parking lot behind us. And my regularly having to turn on our porch light when we had outside cooking, dining and the 3 am letting out of the dog were more times they got light. Same basic number of the occasional male flowers at the same late stage in flowering.

I even went up to a buddy's place out in the rural countryside of Michigan and planted a few clones behind his barn. No light from the barn, no light from the windows of the house, no light from cars in his driveway or cars on the road, no security lights around. Unless it was a full moon there was not enough light at night to be able to walk around without tripping over a stick or stone without a flashlight. Same basic number of the occasional male flowers at the same late stage in flowering.

Once they mature, I then have to keep an eye out for mold or as they say, hongos, so I can't leave them in the darkroom due to it's higher humidity level or else it could be a disaster.

By the time we can see mold or fungus on our plants there is a very good probability that the stuff has been growing there for 3 to 4 weeks. It is not a 2 or 3 day process.

There probably are organic types of fungicides that could be sprayed on the plants once a week to prevent molds and fungus. They probably can be sprayed up to a week or so before harvest. I would not be surprised if one of sponsors has something. I think that the Safer company's product can be used up to a week before harvest. The buds would have to go through a 'bud washing' at harvest but it is a minor procedure and does not take up all that much time.

Have fun and keep on gardening.

 

[kikikopa]

You made some good points Smokinwings. Thanks for taking the time to post.

I've done some searching on the topic but haven't quite found the answer to my question of how long they have to stay in absolute darkness after they've reached the advanced flowering stage. And as you probably know, there seems to be quite a bit of contradictory information online regarding cannabis growing in general not to mention the number of sites that only do the copy/paste thing and contain nothing unique. My computer time is limited these days which reduces how much time I can spend searching for answers. As a person who had access to the internet from the mid-90's to now, I can tell you that researching any topic these days can be frustrating for many reasons. There were more unique sources and less "noise" back then compared to what you find now. I used to actually enjoy the time I spent learning online but now it's almost the complete opposite.

I like the thought of there possibly being a product that can prevent mold although I don't know if it would be available where I live. I'm relatively close to the ocean and humidity levels are naturally high to begin with so it's a constant threat. If such a product was available, I know it would be in demand as all growers would love to have something that could ward off the dreaded "hongos". I will check and see though.

On the subject of mold, one thing that should help me out is the smaller-but-more buds that I will get from topping. To me, that is a major benefit. That in itself should be enough for me to stay on top of it. I've become pretty good at spotting the first sign of any mold developing and it's a lot easier when you don't have big fat buds which you have to spread open to inspect their hidden insides. You have to check them every single day since mold will spread fast and I know can wipe out the whole plant toot sweet. That's the last thing you want after you've invested all that precious time nurturing your lovely lady only to have her turn out to be a total loss.

All the best to you my online friend in 2022!

 

[013]

after a plant is in full flower it is possible to increase light ON hours to above 12 hours per day and keep the plant in flower without going hermie…. with that said I’m not sure how far this can be pushed….. but I would expect incrementally increasing the light hours by 15 or 20 minute adjustments is the way to go as opposed to adding 1 full light hour each time you want to increase

think @Emilya is doing this in her garden - hopefully she can fill in gaps I have left

about that PM…. micronized or wettable sulfur is plant friendly element, its a miticide, prevents rust, botyritis and pm plus can be added to soil mix, mixed w/water for foliar spray or dusted on soil but wear a mask cuz it’s bad for lungs…

 

[SmokingWings]

My computer time is limited these days which reduces how much time I can spend searching for answers. As a person who had access to the internet from the mid-90's to now, I can tell you that researching any topic these days can be frustrating for many reasons. There were more unique sources and less "noise" back then compared to what you find now. I used to actually enjoy the time I spent learning online but now it's almost the complete opposite.

Except these days the algorithms are so much better that it can take only one, maybe two search questions to start to narrow down the results and getting rid of the chaff.

 

[SmokingWings]

after a plant is in full flower it is possible to increase light ON hours to above 12 hours per day and keep the plant in flower without going hermie…. with that said I’m not sure how far this can be pushed…..

We might be able to push it up to 30 hours of light. We would have to run a cycle of 12 hrs dark, 30 hrs light, 12 hours dark and keep going with that sort of schedule. Maybe a few more hours of dark but the light period was long.

Awhile ago, maybe just several months before you joined, someone posted a msg on this topic. He had found a web page where the author was using this sort of lighting schedule. He claimed that it produced the same amounts and qualities at harvest but it knocked about 2 weeks off of the total flowering time. Naturally someone would have had to send him some money to get the full explanation of how it all worked. No one wanted to do that.

My theory is that his method let the grower start the plant flowering and then allowed the plant to build up a 'stockpile' of the hormone that caused flowering. The stockpile kept the plant in flower during the extended light period before it had to be replaced or built back up. In the meantime the extra length of light helped the plant build up a stockpile of sugars and whatever the plant needed because of the extreme amounts of time photosynthesis was allowed to take place.

 

[013]

Ok thanks SW - I really should refrain from using that point anyway cuz it’s bound to confuse…

I do want to hear Emilyas input