Run off pH question

[CP316]

Hi, I am using ocean forest soil, and ph my nuts and water between 6 - 6.5 usually. but I tested my run off and it shows ph around 5? Is this normal or this is ph blockage? If its ph blockage, what's the best way to correct it? Thanks

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi @CP316 and welcome to the forum!
measuring your runoff pH in Fox Farm Ocean Forest is a total and complete waste of time and it tells you nothing but what you already know from reading the package... there is a lot of sphagnum moss in there that drives the pH downward on the sludge that comes out of the bottom. That measurement has absolutely nothing to do with the actual base pH of that soil, which should be around 6.8 pH. Anyone who tells you that it is important to measure runoff pH or runoff PPM in soil, has absolutely no idea what they are talking about, and you should shun this person from now on as far as getting grow information goes.
So what is pH blockage? Is this something else that your advisor told you about? I have been in this growing business for a long time, and I have never heard of pH blockage.
When you water, whether it is plain water or water mixed with nutes... adjust the pH of that fluid to 6.3 every time, right before applying it to the soil. This pH is mathematically where the most elements are the most mobile, the sweet spot as it were. When you water at 6.3, immediately the upward pH drift of that good soil (corrected with dolomite lime already built in) will run the pH of your container between 6.3 and 6.8 pH, exactly the usable range in soil. Accuracy counts... find a method where you can accurately adjust to 6.3 every time... not 6, and not 6.5.... 6.3 is the sweet spot. The soil will take care of itself... there is nothing that you need to do to adjust it.

 

[CP316]

Hi @CP316 and welcome to the forum!
measuring your runoff pH in Fox Farm Ocean Forest is a total and complete waste of time and it tells you nothing but what you already know from reading the package... there is a lot of sphagnum moss in there that drives the pH downward on the sludge that comes out of the bottom. That measurement has absolutely nothing to do with the actual base pH of that soil, which should be around 6.8 pH. Anyone who tells you that it is important to measure runoff pH or runoff PPM in soil, has absolutely no idea what they are talking about, and you should shun this person from now on as far as getting grow information goes.
So what is pH blockage? Is this something else that your advisor told you about? I have been in this growing business for a long time, and I have never heard of pH blockage.
When you water, whether it is plain water or water mixed with nutes... adjust the pH of that fluid to 6.3 every time, right before applying it to the soil. This pH is mathematically where the most elements are the most mobile, the sweet spot as it were. When you water at 6.3, immediately the upward pH drift of that good soil (corrected with dolomite lime already built in) will run the pH of your container between 6.3 and 6.8 pH, exactly the usable range in soil. Accuracy counts... find a method where you can accurately adjust to 6.3 every time... not 6, and not 6.5.... 6.3 is the sweet spot. The soil will take care of itself... there is nothing that you need to do to adjust it.

Hi, Thanks for the info. I am a newbie, this is my first grow. I got some deficiencies in my plant and few ppl saying to check the run off, if the runoff ph is close to what u put in then I might need up the nuts for next feed if it's way lower like around 5 or lower, then your plant doesn't have proper ph so the roots can't take up the nuts.

She is at day 39 now from seed. she is auto candy cane. Last nuts feed was on day 33 ( 2ml CalMag, 2ml Mirco, 1ml Gro, 2ml Bloom with half tsp of Molasses), I gave her PH water on day 37.

Here are a few pics of my plant. Any input will be great. Thanks

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi, Thanks for the info. I am a newbie, this is my first grow. I got some deficiencies in my plant and few ppl saying to check the run off, if the runoff ph is close to what u put in then I might need up the nuts for next feed if it's way lower like around 5 or lower, then your plant doesn't have proper ph so the roots can't take up the nuts.

She is at day 39 now from seed. she is auto candy cane. Last nuts feed was on day 33 ( 2ml CalMag, 2ml Mirco, 1ml Gro, 2ml Bloom with half tsp of Molasses), I gave her PH water on day 37.

Here are a few pics of my plant. Any input will be great. Thanks

Hi again... those few people giving you that stupid advice to check the runoff on ocean forest soil, saying that this had anything to do with anything, have no idea what they are talking about. If this was coco or hydro that test could tell you something, but in soil it will not. There are a lot of hydro shops that will all knowingly give out information like this to someone who insists on trying soil, just so they will fail and will come back to the shop and buy a lot of hydro equipment, that of course will be guaranteed to work, and so much easier than soil. This is all BS, designed to get those dollars out of your pocket and into theirs.
Even your choice of nutes shows that you are being advised by a hydro person... you should have gone with Fox Farms SOIL nutes.
Again, my advice is to pH to 6.3 with nutes and 6.3 with plain water....
At 6.3 your calmag will work a lot better, with the magnesium that you are deficient in being a lot more mobile at that lower pH. At 6.5 and above, your plant can barely even see the magnesium... no matter how much you might apply. Get your pH in line... pay no attention to those hydro guys, and drive this thing like a true soil grower. Your plant looks good except for the beginnings of the magnesium deficiency and a little bit of tip burning showing that you are giving just the right amount of nutes, plus just a little extra. They say if you aren't at least burning the tips, you aren't trying hard enough.

 

[CP316]

Hi again... those few people giving you that stupid advice to check the runoff on ocean forest soil, saying that this had anything to do with anything, have no idea what they are talking about. If this was coco or hydro that test could tell you something, but in soil it will not. There are a lot of hydro shops that will all knowingly give out information like this to someone who insists on trying soil, just so they will fail and will come back to the shop and buy a lot of hydro equipment, that of course will be guaranteed to work, and so much easier than soil. This is all BS, designed to get those dollars out of your pocket and into theirs.
Even your choice of nutes shows that you are being advised by a hydro person... you should have gone with Fox Farms SOIL nutes.
Again, my advice is to pH to 6.3 with nutes and 6.3 with plain water....
At 6.3 your calmag will work a lot better, with the magnesium that you are deficient in being a lot more mobile at that lower pH. At 6.5 and above, your plant can barely even see the magnesium... no matter how much you might apply. Get your pH in line... pay no attention to those hydro guys, and drive this thing like a true soil grower. Your plant looks good except for the beginnings of the magnesium deficiency and a little bit of tip burning showing that you are giving just the right amount of nutes, plus just a little extra. They say if you aren't at least burning the tips, you aren't trying hard enough.

Thanks for all the info Emilya

 

[Emilya Green]

You are very welcome. Soil rules. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise... just wait till you go full living organic and don't even have to use nutes, pH adjust anything, and you easily grow the best pot anyone has ever seen, way way cheaper than you can with any other method.

 

[Hilly123]

Hi again... those few people giving you that stupid advice to check the runoff on ocean forest soil, saying that this had anything to do with anything, have no idea what they are talking about. If this was coco or hydro that test could tell you something, but in soil it will not. There are a lot of hydro shops that will all knowingly give out information like this to someone who insists on trying soil, just so they will fail and will come back to the shop and buy a lot of hydro equipment, that of course will be guaranteed to work, and so much easier than soil. This is all BS, designed to get those dollars out of your pocket and into theirs.
Even your choice of nutes shows that you are being advised by a hydro person... you should have gone with Fox Farms SOIL nutes.
Again, my advice is to pH to 6.3 with nutes and 6.3 with plain water....
At 6.3 your calmag will work a lot better, with the magnesium that you are deficient in being a lot more mobile at that lower pH. At 6.5 and above, your plant can barely even see the magnesium... no matter how much you might apply. Get your pH in line... pay no attention to those hydro guys, and drive this thing like a true soil grower. Your plant looks good except for the beginnings of the magnesium deficiency and a little bit of tip burning showing that you are giving just the right amount of nutes, plus just a little extra. They say if you aren't at least burning the tips, you aren't trying hard enough.

Hi, I'm new to organic gardening,
and have been reading that there's no need to adjust the ph of nutrient solution. Could you give me some advice on why I've been reading this, but you're saying you need to adjust to 6.3 ? Is this the same if you're using compost teas, and fpj, lab? And if so could you tell me what you use to adjust the ph up and down?

 

[Barney86]

Haha that was sooo aimed at me too.
#hydro4ever!
Haha just kidding Emily. Couldn't resist the cheap shot though

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi, I'm new to organic gardening,
and have been reading that there's no need to adjust the ph of nutrient solution. Could you give me some advice on why I've been reading this, but you're saying you need to adjust to 6.3 ? Is this the same if you're using compost teas, and fpj, lab? And if so could you tell me what you use to adjust the ph up and down?

Lets define the word organic. Organic can simply mean, not synthetic, or natural. It is also possible to use totally organic materials in your soil, and then feed synthetically, or via a bottle using chelated nutrients and it is even possible nowadays to buy nutrients that are also totally natural and not synthetic, but neither of those methods are truly what we call organic gardening. If you feed out of a bottle, then it is necessary to adjust the pH. Some lucky people have tap water that is adjusted perfectly so that when they add acidic nutes the mix adjusts to the proper pH range. Some people run odd soil mixes and soilless mediums that buffer the pH into a range that works for their water supply and the nutrient system they are using. These people will all tell you that there is no need to adjust pH. There is actually a cult of people on these forums who profess that adjusting pH is not necessary. Take these reports with a grain of sand... not all conditions are alike. If you are not running the exact promix or whatever that person is using, your results WILL vary. As a long time diagnostician of plant problems on these online forums, ranking the problems I see by frequency, I first see watering incorrectly as the number one problem for people in soil, trying to outthink the nutrient companies and their feeding recommendations as the second biggest problem, and in third place I would place those people who either think pH is unimportant and don't adjust it on purpose, or those who have improper tools to correctly measure their pH. PH, if you are feeding from a bottle and in anything other than a buffered soil that specifically takes care of this problem for you, is critically important for most of us.
So, if you instead are growing organically... not feeding out of a bottle, using a good mineralized super soil, and giving only water and compost teas, pH is totally unimportant to you. There is no need to even worry about the pH in a true organic garden, because you are not dealing with any chelated nutrients that have to be in a certain pH range to break apart and be available to the plants, you are dealing with microbes. Your job is simply to feed the microbes the minerals they need and not feed the plants, the microbes do that, and in this process pH is totally meaningless unless of course you make the whole environment so base or acidic that nothing could grow. Even the act of adjusting pH by adding acids or bases to the mix, would simply kill the microbes you are trying to promote.

 

[Hilly123]

Lets define the word organic. Organic can simply mean, not synthetic, or natural. It is also possible to use totally organic materials in your soil, and then feed synthetically, or via a bottle using chelated nutrients and it is even possible nowadays to buy nutrients that are also totally natural and not synthetic, but neither of those methods are truly what we call organic gardening. If you feed out of a bottle, then it is necessary to adjust the pH. Some lucky people have tap water that is adjusted perfectly so that when they add acidic nutes the mix adjusts to the proper pH range. Some people run odd soil mixes and soilless mediums that buffer the pH into a range that works for their water supply and the nutrient system they are using. These people will all tell you that there is no need to adjust pH. There is actually a cult of people on these forums who profess that adjusting pH is not necessary. Take these reports with a grain of sand... not all conditions are alike. If you are not running the exact promix or whatever that person is using, your results WILL vary. As a long time diagnostician of plant problems on these online forums, ranking the problems I see by frequency, I first see watering incorrectly as the number one problem for people in soil, trying to outthink the nutrient companies and their feeding recommendations as the second biggest problem, and in third place I would place those people who either think pH is unimportant and don't adjust it on purpose, or those who have improper tools to correctly measure their pH. PH, if you are feeding from a bottle and in anything other than a buffered soil that specifically takes care of this problem for you, is critically important for most of us.
So, if you instead are growing organically... not feeding out of a bottle, using a good mineralized super soil, and giving only water and compost teas, pH is totally unimportant to you. There is no need to even worry about the pH in a true organic garden, because you are not dealing with any chelated nutrients that have to be in a certain pH range to break apart and be available to the plants, you are dealing with microbes. Your job is simply to feed the microbes the minerals they need and not feed the plants, the microbes do that, and in this process pH is totally meaningless unless of course you make the whole environment so base or acidic that nothing could grow. Even the act of adjusting pH by adding acids or bases to the mix, would simply kill the microbes you are trying to promote.

Totally makes sense...thank you for your reply, you definitely know your stuff. I've always grown in coco, so I am new to organics. I wont be using bottled nutes...I will be using pure organics, compost teas, PJE , LAB, SST etc...have you heard of the plant called lambs quarter? I've been reading up on this, and it has one of the highest PK and calcium contents of any plant you can use for PJE...check it out if you don't know it...sounds awesome. I don't think I've ever smoked pure organic weed, would you say I've been missing out on the good stuff?

 

[Emilya Green]

Totally makes sense...thank you for your reply, you definitely know your stuff. I've always grown in coco, so I am new to organics. I wont be using bottled nutes...I will be using pure organics, compost teas, PJE , LAB, SST etc...have you heard of the plant called lambs quarter? I've been reading up on this, and it has one of the highest PK and calcium contents of any plant you can use for PJE...check it out if you don't know it...sounds awesome. I don't think I've ever smoked pure organic weed, would you say I've been missing out on the good stuff?

Lamb's Quarter: N, Ca, K, P, Mn
Dandelion: Na, SiO2, Mg, Ca, K, P, Fe, Cu
Listings comparing available mineral content in Dandelion and Lamb's Quarter​

I have done a lot of work with FPEs and I use the mighty dandelion to make my nutrients. While Lamb's Quarter is very good in accumulating a lot of the nutrients that we need for our plant, the dandelion is at the top of the heap as far as dynamic accumulators go. If you have a lot of lamb's quarter around by all means use it... but don't overlook the dandelion as a much better organic and natural nutrient.
When you smoke organically grown pot the first time, you will be convinced. Having every nutrient available in the soil for the plant to use on its own time and its own schedule does make a huge difference in every variety's ability to fully express its genetics. You will be amazed at the difference and no one that I have ever met that tried true living organic growing has ever gone back to helping make the nutrient companies rich.

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi, I am using ocean forest soil, and ph my nuts and water between 6 - 6.5 usually. but I tested my run off and it shows ph around 5? Is this normal or this is ph blockage? If its ph blockage, what's the best way to correct it? Thanks

After re-reading my responses this morning, I need to apologize for railing against the term pH blockage. I don't know where my mind was when writing that response, but indeed there are blockages of the uptake of certain nutrients at certain pH levels and it is well known that all of the elements are the most mobile (able to be uptaken into the plant directly) at specific ranges within the overall soil pH range. I must have been very stoned when I wrote that and had some larger point to make on the terminology that you used, but in re-reading it I have no idea what that point was other than I thought that you were using that term incorrectly. I should have explained better instead of getting up on that soapbox fueled with very strong pot to jump on the words you used. I hope that after that momentary loss of mind, you did get some good info out of what I said.

 

[Hilly123]

Lamb's Quarter: N, Ca, K, P, Mn
Dandelion: Na, SiO2, Mg, Ca, K, P, Fe, Cu
Listings comparing available mineral content in Dandelion and Lamb's Quarter​

I have done a lot of work with FPEs and I use the mighty dandelion to make my nutrients. While Lamb's Quarter is very good in accumulating a lot of the nutrients that we need for our plant, the dandelion is at the top of the heap as far as dynamic accumulators go. If you have a lot of lamb's quarter around by all means use it... but don't overlook the dandelion as a much better organic and natural nutrient.
When you smoke organically grown pot the first time, you will be convinced. Having every nutrient available in the soil for the plant to use on its own time and its own schedule does make a huge difference in every variety's ability to fully express its genetics. You will be amazed at the difference and no one that I have ever met that tried true living organic growing has ever gone back to helping make the nutrient companies rich.

Great stuff...thanks so much for your advice... It has helped a lot. I'm going to get on the dandelion FPE for sure, sounds great...but I do have a lot of lambs quarter about the place...what do you think about mixing the dandelion flower and stems with equal parts lambs quarter and making a FPE with this? Maybe I'll make one straight with the dandelion,and a mix with both, and use the mixes on two different plants.

 

[Emilya Green]

Emmie's Backyard Fermented Plant Extracts From Dandelions!

In this thread we are going to make 3 important extracts for our gardens, a rooting formula, a growth enhancer, and a flowering inducing supplement. We are going to do it for next to no money investment and from the most common weed in our yards. Since this is free to the savvy organic...

www.420magazine.com

Check out my work with dandelions. Using different parts of the plant in different FPEs results in some very useful compounds for our weed gardens. I see no harm in mixing dandelion and lambs quarter and it seems they would compliment each other well... especially with the addition of Mn to the mix.