Senator's ScrOG

[MrSenator]

Photos

 

[MrSenator]

REPOST

Today is the first day of Flowering Week 6 for two of my girls. I did a res change on Saturday, and used a syringe I purchased at a hydro store to measure out my liquid nutes (General Hydro). I have a sneaking suspicion that I may have added too much nutes to my RO water before res change. When I looked at my girls on Sunday, the leaf ridges were raised and the tips have curled upward and become brittle (some will crumble when trying to straighten the curl). My idea is nute lock and since the girls arn't drinking, transpiration is making the ridges raise and the tips curl. What do you think? My air temp is ~70 and RH is ~25. I have a water chiller in the res, so it should stay about 5 degrees cooler than air temp. I do not pH my water anymore, because on my first grow, once I switched to General Hydro liquid nutes, the pH never fluctuated. Also, I had a root grow up INTO one of the electrodes on my meter and I couldnt get it out. So no meter for me.

I am unable to look into my res because the girls are tied up in a scrog, but the water temp is cold, water smells right, and there is no slimy feel to water, roots, or res wall; so I don't think it is a pH problem. All buds and leaves look healthy, just raised ridges and curled tips as of Sunday. Tips are curled less than a quarter of an inch.

I tried to look and see if they were drinking or any res water level change this morning but couldn't tell, since the lights weren't on.

Please let me know what you think. I am planning on doing a complete res change again this evening (using my tried and true method of measuring nutes). I am wondering if you think I should do Roseman's peroxide recovery method.

Buds are getting big and I can't afford to screw this up. Thanks!

 

[Roseman]

I'm so glad you are here and I am subscribed and watching, old friend!

Looking good!

 

[MrSenator]

I'm so glad you are here and I am subscribed and watching, old friend!

Looking good!

Thanks Roseman. You mind commenting on my raised ridges and curling tips?

 

[Roseman]

I think you diagnoised them perfectly.

Curled tips, crispy tips, is usually nute burn, but NOT eating and NOT drinking and SPOTS = Nute Lockout.

 

[MrSenator]

I think you diagnoised them perfectly.

Curled tips, crispy tips, is usually nute burn, but NOT eating and NOT drinking and SPOTS = Nute Lockout.

Res got changed last night. This morning tips still curled and fringes still raised. How long should I expect it to take for the leaves to return to normal; if they are no longer locked?

 

[Michael Hunt]

Well if they are burned, the damage has been done and will not fix itself. They look like they are getting a little warm with the leaves curling up like that. try raising your light or getting more cool air circulating in there. What's your PH, res temp, and PPM?

 

[Roseman]

Res got changed last night. This morning tips still curled and fringes still raised. How long should I expect it to take for the leaves to return to normal; if they are no longer locked?

7 to ten days.

The SALTS or Undisolved minerals are causing the ridges and curling, but they are not or were not to far gone to be a serious consequence.
Mist often, and strive for a high humidity in VEG. Lower the amount of feeding some and allow the pH to fluctuate so all the foods get ate.


Weekly Drain and Replinish

Topping Off the Tank's Reservoir

I have tried to not use scientific terms or even get very technical in my Tutorial, but I might have to, to explain something that needs explaining here. I really do own 14 books on Hydroponic Indoor Growing. And I have studied them too. Some of the books were written simply, and some are difficult for me to comprehend and even more difficult for me to explain. They all vary a little on the perfect pH level, and they all vary on LIGHTING, some books were written way before CFLs were sold, or when CFLs were new on the scene. But they all agree on Topping Off the tank and Draining and Replenishing the water and nutrients.

To address this, I am going to post it twice to be sure I explain it. You will need to read both explanations.

After the nutes are added to the tank and the pH is balanced, the plants start eating, consuming the food. Logically, the larger the tank, the more water there is, and the more nutes you need. Logically, the larger the plants, the more they will eat from the tank. Logically, the more plants that are in the tank, the more they will eat. And logically, the more they eat, the more nutes that you need in the tank. The amount of nutes provided is in relationship to the amount of water, NOT the amount of plants. It is the Ratio or Proportion in the water that is important. The amount of nutes added to the tank are measured by we commonly call a PPM Meter, PPM meaning parts per million.

The Instructions on the nutrients contain the proper amount of nutes to add to the water, usually determined by "per gallon", and not by "per plant" or "size of plants". In the beginning, we start with 1/4 dose of nutrients, because a full dose is meant for full grown plants. If we use a ppm meter, we seek a ppm of 150 to 250 ppms above the ppm of the water, on average for small young sprouts, it varies from nutrient to nutrient. As the plants grow, we then slowly and gradually increase the nutrients fed to them, and consequently we increase the ppm. By the time the plants are over a foot tall, we will be in the neighborhood of a ppm of 600, then 800 on up to 1200 ppm. Some growers risk even higher ppms, watching the leaves tips for yellowing, to know when to back off with feedings. And as we add more food, the plants grow and eat more, indicated by them also drinking more water. As a rule of thumb, we figure if they drank half of the water, they then must of ate half the food. That is close to being right, but not precisely. If the grow room was exceptionly HOT, they can drink more water without eating more food. And consequently, some days, they eat more, some days they eat less, regardless of the amount of the water missing.

As they eat, they do not eat all of the delivered nutes at the same rate, or same proportion, and that changes the pH and the ppm. It also changes what they call the RNC, or RELATIONSHIP OF NUTRIENT CONCENTRATION. That CHANGE is not easy to calculate or measure, like the ppm or pH is easy to measure.
When the nutrients are first introduced or added, the RNC is perfect, or properly proportioned. In other words, there are specific amounts or precise amounts of each needed nutrient. The exact amount of needed Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potash, also commonly called Potassium are present and available for food for the plants.

BUT, as the plants eat, they do not eat all of the nutrients in a perfect proportion or at a perfect rate or equal rate. Some days, they want what grows longer roots, some days, they want what makes more leaves. The plants actually nibble at some nutrients in the mix each day, and gobble down some others. Some of the nutrients are not hardly eaten at all, some are absorbed very quickly. This creates an IMBALANCE of the mix. If you add more water and nutes daily to replace the eaten nutes, (CALLED TOPPING OFF) the IMBALANCE INCREASES. If you only add plain water daily, again, Top It Off, you still get the imbalance. AND the nutes not eaten, or the nutes that are increased daily cause a build up of nutes, and that creates a BAD imbalance of the RNC.
When this happens, the water becomes TOXIC and unusable even tho the ppm meter says there is a proper amount of nutrients. The plants say I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THE BUFFET and like a spoiled child unhappy at the dinner table, they suddenly refuse to eat anything. This is called NUTRITIONAL LOCKOUT. This happens even tho the ppm meter says there are plenty of parts per million of nutes in the water. The ppm meter does not indicate if the nutrients are balanced or at a toxic level. It just indicates there is plenty of food on the table.

THIS IS WHY WE MUST WEEKLY DUMP IT ALL AND START ALL OVER.
THIS IS WHY WE MUST DRAIN AND REPLENISH WEEKLY, regardless of whether we TOP OFF with plain water, or TOP OFF with water and a fractional dose of nutes.
Changing the water weekly maintains the proper RNC.

 

[Roseman]

Same tune, different words.

Weekly Drain and Replinish

Topping Off the Tank's Reservoir


Daily Maintenance of the reservoir is mostly keeping the pH at the proper level, and keeping the same level of water in the tank as it is used or evaporates. It is also keeping the nutrient mix or nutrient solution at a proper level, a level that is NOT toxic or too strong.
In the day to day course of maintaining the tank two problems occur. Remember how we discussed ppm, parts per million? Then we discussed RNC, RELATIONSHIP OF NUTRIENT CONCENTRATION. Well, we also need to discuss TDS, Total Disolved Salts. (Some books say Total Disolved Solids, for some reason unknown to me) As the water evaporates or is consumed, the concentration of TDS becomes stronger, to the point of being Toxic. The TDS increase as the amount of water decreases. This creates the need to replenish the water, to replace the water, to "top off". As we replace that missing water, we create an IMBALANCE. Hydroponic grown plants eat what they need, as they need it, and they leave some nutes to build up and accumalate into a posionious or toxic level.
This creates the need to daily TOP IT OFF. (to put a cut on it) I have already discussed starting Feedings and Draining and Replenishing in this thread twice. It is simple enough, daily replace what you estimate is gone, consumed, eaten, and absorbed.

But weekly, you need to clear the buffet table and start all over with fresh foods. This gives the plant not only a well balanced buffet table to eat from, but also supplies it with FRESH Food that has not been altered by the plants being picky and choosey.


And, there is the Growth Spurt you will get during the Drain, as the roots get a 5 to 15 mintues air bath. It also gives you the opportunity to look for crimped air hoses, scrub the air stones clean and look for debris and trash in the tank that messes with the pH balance.

Also, as the water ages, undesirable harmful microbes appear and grow in the water. You also take the chance of insect larvae and algae appearing, and weekly draining the tank helps prevent those problems too.

 

[Roseman]

 

[Roseman]

In the pH chart, the first two columns are about Hydro growing and feeding.

see the "p" for potassium, the RED bar, it says potassium is absorbed when the pH is between 6.1 and 5.8. If the pH stayed at 5.7, 5.6 or at 6.2 opr 6.3, then the plant doesn't eat the potassium.
When a plant doesn't get what it wants, it quits eating all together, everything, it quits eating allt he otehr minerals and nutrients, and that is NUTRITIONAL LOCKOUT!.

 

[MrSenator]

Thanks Roseman. I do replace RO + nutes daily or every two days. I have been replacing with full strength GH nutes: 10ml/gal micro & 15ml/gal bloom. I did the same with my last grow and I don't recall having this problem. Looks like I will need a meter for my next grow. Lets say they are locked out and they are not drinking, transpiration takes its toll and the they start looking dehydrated/heat stress. Will your 8 step recovery method clean their plate and allow them to accept full strength nutes again? I went with full strength nutes on my res change last night. Should I have done 75% nutes for this week, and then back to full strength?

I do a weekly drain and replenish.

 

[MrSenator]

Well if they are burned, the damage has been done and will not fix itself. They look like they are getting a little warm with the leaves curling up like that. try raising your light or getting more cool air circulating in there. What's your PH, res temp, and PPM?

I raised my light yesterday about 2 inches. I have 2 fans on low blowing up through the nodes. My temp gauge on the outside of my tent ranges from 65 to 70. Below screen 70 to 75. At screen?? I can guess 75 to 80. My res has an ice probe chiller inserted into it, and when I did monitor the res temp, the chiller kept the temp down about 5 degrees cooler than air temp.

My last grow I had a ph and ppm monitor, but the General Hydro nutes have ph buffers in them, so the ph never really fluctuated. This is generally true for the ppm also, as I would be adding about a gallon of RO + nutes per day at this stage last grow.

I am keeping my eye on the leaves, and hopefully we can get this issue resolved. They should only have about 3 - 4 more weeks to go.

 

[MrSenator]

Well if they are burned, the damage has been done and will not fix itself. They look like they are getting a little warm with the leaves curling up like that. try raising your light or getting more cool air circulating in there. What's your PH, res temp, and PPM?

@ 2:20pm

pH: 5.7
temp: 68 -70 (difference between two different meters)
ppm: flux between 900 - 1050

 

[Roseman]

Thanks Roseman. I do replace RO + nutes daily or every two days. I have been replacing with full strength GH nutes: 10ml/gal micro & 15ml/gal bloom. I did the same with my last grow and I don't recall having this problem. Looks like I will need a meter for my next grow. Lets say they are locked out and they are not drinking, transpiration takes its toll and the they start looking dehydrated/heat stress. Will your 8 step recovery method clean their plate and allow them to accept full strength nutes again? I went with full strength nutes on my res change last night. Should I have done 75% nutes for this week, and then back to full strength?

I do a weekly drain and replenish.

In RECOVERY, while nursing sick plants, we feed only water a day to two days, then feed reduced nutes, like at 50% to 75%.

If they are over-fed and sick, then to heal them, you gotta feed them less for a few days.........works for me.

The real gone, all yellow leaves are going to yellow, crisp and fall off, but you should get new growth within a week on plain water and then reduced feedings for a while.

 

[MrSenator]

In RECOVERY, while nursing sick plants, we feed only water a day to two days, then feed reduced nutes, like at 50% to 75%.

If they are over-fed and sick, then to heal them, you gotta feed them less for a few days.........works for me.

The real gone, all yellow leaves are going to yellow, crisp and fall off, but you should get new growth within a week on plain water and then reduced feedings for a while.

Thanks Roseman.
Curling has not progressed, but it didn't go away either. I have been and continue to give them reduced feedings between res. changes. Saturdays are res change, and I replenish with full strength nutes, then when I top off everyday or ether other day, I replenish with 2/3 strength nutes (1 gal worth of nutes in 1.5 gal of RO).
I have included two pics of my current situation...

IS THIS HEAT STRESS?? LIGHT BURN??

Leaves feel dry and rough, not crumble up and blow away dry, but....
Leaves under and right at the screen are not nearly as dry and rough. They look green and healthy.

STATS:
Outside tent: temp= 68-70 rh= 40-42
Inside tent: temp= 72 rh= 30 (below canopy) temp= >75 rh= <30 (above canopy)
res temp= <70
ppm ~ 900
pH ~ 5.7

I have less than two weeks before HARVEST, just need some support in the mean time...

 

[MrSenator]

"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."

-Abraham Lincoln (1809-65)

Happy 420

 

[Michael Hunt]

Lookin good man, they dont look heat stressed at all. Sounds to me like you got it under control, as long as those spots arent spreading let it ride, 2 weeks is not long at all

 

[Roseman]

Heat moisture stress perhaps???

 

[Hydroe]

Great Lincoln quote!!! Any updates ?