The Mountain: Grow Support From The Over 50 Club

Hey Klondike
Check your runoff ph as well. My first run in P&V did really well. I tested the runoff and the ph runs up. I ph-ed lower and figured the girls would pick up what they needed on the way. I like hempy because you can't over water. and my racks are really easy to flush. My journal is short, but may help you. Now I'm running 50/50 coco choir and pearlite my girls are loving it. what are you using for source water?
 
Hey everybody just been cruising around collecting info for my brain to feed on and got into a conversation with someone about de-leafing or defoliation of your plants and not to lollipop but to fully develop the undergrowth as well when after trying to confirm to him in solid proof he was wrong I came across this little tid bit of info that makes me reconsider weather or not lollipoping and leaving the extra leaf on for a good canopy is a good thing or not



(Experienced Growers Only) Controversial Defoliation Increases Marijuana Yields


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




by Keef Treez "The Defoliator"

Defoliation is an extreme marijuana growth technique. It's not to be done lightly.

In fact, the topic of defoliation is one of the most controversial subjects in the marijuana growing field. People on both sides defend their position vehemently.

I'm on the side that believe there is absolutely nothing stressful about defoliation or bending branches. Honestly, there is no way to achieve nearly a pound of buds from a 2-3 foot tall plant indoors, except using defoliation.

Opponents often have arguments like, "PLANTS NEED THOSE LEAVES! If they didn't, they wouldn't be there."

Or my all-time favorite, "I have a friend who used to grow, and he insists that will hurt the plant."

Yet the saddest part of all is how so few people are willing to look at the evidence.

In some ways, I almost would prefer the rest of the growing world keep up their ill-advised lollipopping, removing growing tips, and other low-yield techniques. The defoliation technique has been loudly condemned by "experienced" growers for decades. Nevertheless, I am determined to educate other growers about defoliating and let them see the results for themselves.

So let me start by giving you some picture proof that defoliation works (make sure you scroll down to see all of them!).

You see, I've been defoliating intensively for 30 years. I am now training plants to be 32" tall and 32" round and yielding 250-400 grams under 400 watt lamp.

Nebula Haze Yes, that's right, he said 8-14 OUNCES of
buds of marijuana harvested off each short, easy-to-manage 32" tall plant, using
just a regular 400 watt HID grow light.

The effects of defoliation

How-To Tutorial: The Controversial Technique of Defoliation

Despite all the evidence (I've posted hundreds of pictures and shown dozens of growers in person), there is still somehow so much skepticism about defoliation techniques. Growers, especially new growers, often just say variations of, "It's common sense, how could removing any part of the plant cause you to get higher yields?"

I recently attended an advanced seminar with a prominent fellow grower and got roundly booed when attempting to describe the defoliation technique, even with pictures showing dramatic benefits.

Unlike many other growers, I believe what's most important is studying how the plant actually grows, instead of assuming she grows how we think she should grow. Real experimentation and unbiased observers are the only way growers are going to learn how to get the best yields for the amount of time, money, and effort.

And it's true that some types of defoliation are brutal to the plants (such as when misguided growers removing all the leaves off extremely young marijuana plants), but other types of defoliation are actually hugely beneficial to increasing yields (I'll be showing you exactly what do do shortly).

And defoliation is beneficial for more than just marijuana, it also has been proven to increase yields for certain other types of crops. For example, it's well-known that cowpeas experience significant increases in yields when up to 50% of their leaves are defoliated during their flowering stage

This marijuana girl is 32" tall (the dimensions of this girl are 32"x32"x32" to be exact). She was intensely defoliated throughout her life.
The marijuana plant was defoliated extensively

And it's true that the real beauty of defoliation is difficult to translate in pictures and verbally.

But I will do my best to give you everything you need to start producing your own huge yields with marijuana defoliation.

How Early Do You Start Defoliating?

I first started defoliating in desperation after many years of SOG, which I feel has proven to be too much work for inconsistent yields. After much experimentation, I've found my yields have been more consistent when training a single plant to use this space instead of 4 or 9 or 25 SOG clones.

Never mind the fact that in many states, patients are limited to just a handful of plants, removing SoG as a viable option.

Most growers who are curious about this do not want to perform defoliation on small plants. They consider the practice in veg to be too radical. And I 100% agree that totally stripping your seedlings of all leaves will be devastating to their growth.

And the honest truth is that defoliation isn't for everyone. Beginners are often already dealing with the drawbacks to their choice of method or media, and defoliation can be disastrous to any but the healthiest of plants.

Because of this, I sometimes hesitate to throw defoliation into the mix of challenges for beginning growers and I strongly advise any growers to experiment with defoliation (or with any extreme growth control method) in the vegetative stage only where there is nothing at stake.

That being said, I believe the only reason you should allow a marijuana plant to leaf out completely is in an outdoor situation where you want as large a plant as possible. In that case you can save deleafing for mid to late summer after full-stretch and branching.

The way I practice this method (growing indoors) leaves never get a chance to age. No leaves are allowed more than about two weeks existence. I start at the top in order to remove the shading. Removing lower leaf contributes nothing to the strategy of exposing usually shaded out mid and lower growth to premium light. I still remove older shabby leaves to keep it all tidy.

And this is where defoliation gets controversial. Many growers feel that controlling their plant in any way during the vegetative stage will significantly reduce yields. And I understand how it can seem that way, especially to new growers, before you've gone through the entire life cycle of the marijuana plant a few times.

Experiments show, again and again, that large plants with intensively prepared structure during extended Veg cycle yield far more than untrained, smaller, force-flowered inpiduals.

Nebula Haze I've also found this to be the case.
Small marijuana plants that are forced to flower when extremely young are
can be fun as an experiment, but produce pitiful yields. Investing more time
in the vegetative stage to gain girth, while controlling the shape and growth
of the plant, has dramatically increased yields for me.


The truth is, that with marijuana, the real 'secret sauce' to getting enormous yields is when you've perfectly prepared your plants for the flowering stage. As any grower knows, once you're deep into flowering, there isn't a whole lot you can do about huge, out-of-control plants except hold on, pray for the best, and do better next time.

I DO NOT lollipop and advice strongly against it. I use defoliation to skillfully and artfully prepare plants during the vegetative stage, so that lollipopping becomes completely unnecessary. I am on a mission to refocus growing technique to never remove ANY productive growth. I believe only leaves should be removed.

Ultimately, the defoliation technique is a huge tool in the grower's toolbox that allows you to dominate the Vegetative stage. Then it can be used in the Flowering stage to maximize yields.

Defoliation is the Big Secret to High-Yield, Compact Marijuana Plants

My style involves intensive defoliation along with the twist and train method (a version of supercropping) using a basic net for support.

I only top once, if at all, at the 5th or 6th node(approximately) depending on the height and structure of a given clone. I also deleaf them at this time. The only plants that get more topping than that are because they had clones taken from them. I don't usually keep dedicated mothers, instead, I just clone the clones and cycle everything through.

To get the best results, you should start defoliation in the vegetative stage. Leaf removal in bud is beneficial after stretch but most important to yields is management and the creation of a more compact plant with more budding sites in a given size.

Stripping and bending takes practice but you must do it to get practice. By starting in veg you risk no bud. Veg plants are replaceable so experiment and be ready to devote a little more time to prepare them.

I'd describe my stripping as "aggressive." Once your plant is trained to deal with defoliation, it's hard to go wrong. Plus, after years of experience, I've become very familiar with how these plants grow and always know what my outcome will be.

But defoliation doesn't end in the vegetative stage. I also continue to pull the fan leaves off of my flowering plants to expose the buds.

As far as when and how often, I don't get too scientific about it.

Usually if things look leafy, meaning that you see more leaf than budsites when viewing the crop, it may be time for another deleafing. It usually takes a week to 10 days for a plant to releaf to the point that there are 2-4 new leaves that have flattened and greened enough to deleaf again.

This repeated releafing process allows that lower growth to benefit from the maturing of the immediate leaf mass.

Leaf removal stimulates lower and mid bud growth by exposing those normally shaded out areas to premium light. Of course those new to the technique should start slow, but if you start too slow you won't remove enough leaf to see the best result.

You basically want to prevent any 'shade' from happening.

Notice how, you can now see light all the way through the plant. This is a good thing for light, as opposed to seeing nothing but leaves in the before pic.

Wait, did you say you wanted to see what kind of buds I get at the BOTTOM of the plant?

You get extensive bottom growth on defoliated plants

Extensive bottom growth on marijuana plant that has been defoliated

This is on the morning of harvest. While some are obsessed with top growth I like well developed bottoms. Tops are a given. If bottoms are this well developed the tops are certainly getting their share of light. Some guys like tops, some like bottoms. I like my girls to be equally well developed.

Ready to Get Started?

You can start easy and try to save leaves but what happens when you see the results like all the mid growth exploding with the new exposure. It would serve logic that if you remove a little and there is good results than remove more and on and on until you get comfortable with stripping down these girls.

I recommend you start deleafing as soon as your plants start looking 'bushy' at all. Start with removing the fans from all the branches and watch the results. Then remove progressively more. Don't remove any branches or sites if you want to commit to this method.

The idea is shade removal, NOT budsite removal. Allow them to releaf for a week or so and remove again when they look leafy.

This girl is 32"sq. and under 30" tall. She was thoroughly plucked continuously through her 11 week flowering cycle as well as during veg. No shortage of branches or buds, all of them chunky and exposed. I ended up harvesting 12 ounces off her. Marijuana plants do not get like this on their own. Stripping in veg and throughout bud is the only way to get results like this.

Defoliation is the only way to grow marijuana plants this 'flat'

Answer to the 3 Most Common Questions About Marijuana Defoliation

1.) Which Fan Leaves Can Be Plucked?

Never damage the tiny shoots butted up next to your fan leaves, as they can form into new colasAll of them.

That was the short answer.

I remove everything that is easily pinched off with the thumbnail and forefinger. I keep a little bit of a cutting tool for a thumbnail specifically for that purpose.

I don't try to get in super close to the buds once they get sticky unless it is just intolerably crowded. Any leaf that is attached by enough of a peristem to be plucked easily is fair game.

Bud leaves are attached deeper in the bud cluster and are difficult to remove by hand. I do not yank or pull down on the leaf. I snip it off with the thumbnail. Don't sweat the stubs that are left, they dry out and fall off. Best not to try to cut so close to the plant, especially in mold prone climates.

2.) Can Defoliation Be Used with Any Growing Medium?

Yes. Medium is not a factor. Go with what you like.

Defoliation works great for marijuana grown in soil, coco coir, perlite, vermiculite, DWC and any other growing medium that marijuana grows in.

3.) I've Never Defoliated and Now I'm Several Weeks into Flowering with Tall, BUSHY Out-of-Control Plants... Can I Still Start Defoliating?

If you've never defoliated before, go conservative to start, even if your plants look healthy.

Do it moderately at first and a little more daily. Pluck fan leaves to prevent branches from growing taller. During the flowering stage, you'll be able to see the increase in bud production.


So there you have it, a basic introduction to defoliation for huge yields. It's about time defoliation went mainstream!


About the Author:

Keef Treez "The Defoliator" has run several threads on Overgrow, and CannabisWorld which continue to be very popular and controversial even years after they were created, receiving millions of hits. He is located in a beautiful high country area where he legally provides as a caregiver

Happy growing!
 
Hey KiloElement,

Speaking from experience (now) with defoliation, wow is all I can say. I was thinning all the way through veg then at day 21 (of flowering) I went ballistic and made the jump. Defoliated the girls HARD!! I was thinking after I did it "Ah crap, I did it now!!" They were sooooo naked.

The next 2 weeks made a believer out of me. Not only did the grow back, they grew back with a vengeance. My next grow will be done the exact same way I did it this time. Makes the girls grow, grow, grow.

This is of course just my experience.

Maui

PS Did the same thing at day 42 of flowering.
 
uptheholler said:
Hey Klondike! You have a couple of issues. Lets start at the beginning. A vermiculite, perlite peat mix is alright but if your percentages are off or if you use coarse un screened peat it is easy to get microbial nitrogen tie up. Your feeding schedule is excessive so you have the unusual situation of over fertilization yet still showing Nitrogen deficiency. The extreme cuppin of the leaves is often a sign of feeding problems. Do you have a moisture meter? I would rceommend some extreme therapy to see if you can pull a decent crop out of these plants. It would include repotting in a balanced commercial mix. Re-veging and and then slowly re introducing a more reasonable feeding schedule.I would also consider an epsom salt application and even a couple of club soda waterings. I would probabaly also do some stimulative pruning.If you have questions please don't hesistate to ask. Best of luck, don't worry we can do alot better!
Click to expand...


I just did some pruning and they look good ish lol. I don't have a soil moisture meter but I can pick one up. I cant re pot at this time, I'll have to make do with what I have. I am using a 1/3 mix over V,P,PM for now. What do you mean by feeding problems?? The club soda sound of kinds kool. Will it add more oxygen to the roots?? How long would you recommend re-vegging?
 
I am a pretty heavy defoliator indoors especially but mainly as a plant enters late vegging through mid flower. Then I let em go unless there are light penetration problems. Again it makes sense when you consider what physiological changes the plant is going through at this time.
Hey Dadums I must have incredible luck with cloning, but I have to ask what is the cost of a bubble cloner? I just transplanted 23 clones out of 25. I clone 2 ways I either air layer or I just cut ,dip in hormone and put in wet rockwool cubes that are inside plain plastic cell type plant containers like what they sell veg plants in at retailers. Then I just set them by a window in a casserole dish with about an inch and a half of water. I've done it these 2 ways for years and I never have an issue. In 2 weeks they are ready to be planted into containers or put in 8 inch rockwool blocks. I'm a cheapskate farmer!
 
dadums said:
Hey Klondike
Check your runoff ph as well. My first run in P&V did really well. I tested the runoff and the ph runs up. I ph-ed lower and figured the girls would pick up what they needed on the way. I like hempy because you can't over water. and my racks are really easy to flush. My journal is short, but may help you. Now I'm running 50/50 coco choir and pearlite my girls are loving it. what are you using for source water?
Click to expand...


PH run of is 5.8 now it was 6.6 Everything is looking better today.
 
Kilo,
Excellent article! I will definitely be trying this with some outdoor plants this summer.
Thanks!
 
Welcome to the Mountain Oopsi! If we can ever help you out just let us know and we'll learn stuff together! Best of luck!
 
Hey everyone glad you all enjoyed the read I figured it was a little long but worth sharing with you all thanks for reading :thumb:
 
I know a couple of local growers that think heavy defoliation is just crazy talk. Well I may a first time grower but went ahead and tried it anyway. My first go, I thought OMG what did I do but a week later I saw the results. Wow is all I can say. The buds that are at the bottom are going to great size as they DO get more light than just letting them run wild. I have yet to see a reason NOT to defoliate. Maybe I just got lucky but I am not thinking so.
I plan on continuing with the defoliation plan as I see that it works.

OF course I am truly a noob so just my 2 cents.

Maui
 
Hi all. i just found this site a very short time ago. What a treasure trove of information. It can almost be overwhelming. I have had to learn a lot of terminology and acromyns just to understand what I was reading. I live in the sticks where the question is got any, not what kind. this lead to a desire for increased quality. I am a new grower and for the first of many questions. I am looking for at least two strains of seeds. What would you recommend as a type to grow for upper back and neck pain. Secondly( I have never heard of pretty much any of the names of the seeds in the distributor) I need a potent but reasonably easy to grow inside variety for my head. I have a marsII 900 if that makes a difference. Thank you all in advance. ( I am old)
 
Good day to you Eno and welcome to 420Magazine. This place is incredible and has so many growers here it is crazy. If you are old like me, come join us at the Over 50 Club

You can get virtually any question answered there. There is a treasure trove of old curmudgeons that have been growing for years and have most if not all of the answers.

Come check it out.

Maui
 
Hey Eno! Welcome to the mountain. As far as strain selection it really does boil down to trial and error and personal preference.
Have you already set up your room? Best of luck and I will also ech Maui's comments. There are some of the most helpful knowledgable folks on this site. Anything that you need all you have to do is ask. Best of luck and again welcome aboard!
 
bozzo420 said:
DSC00680_800x532_2_.jpg
gnats are easy in dirt. put a 1/4 inch of sand on top.......no more gnats.
Click to expand...

Don't over water and you will not get gnats either. :nomo:
 
Have a questions about Autoflowering seeds. What would be the difference between regular seeds and autoflowering they both will flower. I have read that these can be either male or female. Would think if a person was going to purchase autoflowering they would go with autoflowering feminized to be sure. Both seem like a waste, you can't clone either one.
 
Well,

The difference between regular seeds and autos are on regular seeds you need to flip the lights to 12/12 to get then to start to flower. Autos don't require the light change. They will flower when they are ready.

And absolutely by the feminized seeds either way.

Maui
 

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