Day 41 veg: getting some claw and canoeing, help me understand why

[MightyMoe22]

First time grow here, have been seeming to have pretty good luck until now. Just last night I noticed some of my low big fan leaves were beginning to get the "claw".

Then this morning I noticed all the new growth seemed to have gone wild, but is kind of curly and twisted. And all the oldest fan leaves had the dreaded "claw" After some quick reading and digging around the site it seems like a nitrogen toxicity potentially. Funny thing to me is that I actually stepped down the grow big portion of the FF trio for last feeding.

Getting anxious and wondering if I should proceed with a flush.

Info about the grow
-600w hps
-2x4x7 tent
-medium is soil
-7 gallon smart pot
-ff trio and botanicare cal-mag+ and silica blast
-kushberry photo from seed
-RH ranges from 38-50%
- temp from 77-81 degrees farenheit
-18/6 light schedule
- day 40 from sprout, call it day 32 of veg.
- been using the feed/ water/ feed/ water schedule
- keep my incoming ph from 6.2-6.8


I'm kinda stumped here. I'll attach some photos. I thank any one who has any insight or suggestions in advance. All pics are from tonight as of about 20 minutes ago. Sorry they are crappy pics, I'll get better.

 

[Ironmike340]

my guess is they look like to much water.
And rh should be around 70%

 

[MightyMoe22]

The RH stays in the 30s in my house, I keep a humidifier going during lights on sitting next to the passive intake of the tent. That takes it from the 33-38% RH no humidifier, to 48-52% with humidifier going. Think it would be worth investing in a second humidifier? @Ironmike340

Only been watering 2x per week. 1 gallon with nutes early in the week then 1 gallon just ph'ed 3-4 days later. Using distilled water will all waterings.

I don't know if I'm allowed to do this but I've been following @The Mechanic @Gazoo and @Emilya and learning an absolute ton! Any of you have a minute to give me your .02 I would greatly appreciate it. I know you are all very busy and follow and help a lot of people already so if I'm over stepping my bounds then please tell me so. Thanks in advance and thanks again @Ironmike340

 

[ChefDGreen]

That’s too much water you’re giving. I give that same amount to a 3 foot tall plant in week 5 flower in a 3 gallon fabric pot, 1 gal every 3 days. In veg you need to be letting the pots go so dry that the plant looks thirsty. That’s how you build a huge root system. And that would explain the droopiness.

The canoeing is because your light is too close. That plant wants less light.

 

[MightyMoe22]

Thanks so much for the input, @ChefDGreen. Is the gallon per watering too much if I give it longer in between waterings to dry out more? Or should I reduce the amount of water per feeding as well. With 1 gallon I'm getting about 25% runoff from the watering.

 

[Emilya Green]

I see neither actual canoeing or claw... I see a little bit of tip downturn and I see a little bit of leaf puffiness that indicates watering a little too often. An actual claw from over feeding Nitrogen is quite ugly... you do not have that. I think the downturn is from two things... first, you are not letting the container dry out all the way to the bottom, and when you water with your regular schedule twice a week I am afraid that you are adding to a stagnant water table at the bottom of the containers. The key to solving this and getting oxygen down there where it is needed is to let them dry out a little longer between waterings... actually go for a little bit of wilt. Second, it is the nature of cloth containers to air prune the roots as they reach the edges, and this always causes a little reaction from the leaves very similar to what you are seeing here.
Always water each time to runoff... but make sure you are not doing it too often... twice a week might be too much until the roots can support that much water being used. My alarm bells went off though when you say you have had a regular watering schedule whilst in veg... the wet/dry cycle should be changing with every watering, so I knew you were probably rushing the time to water a little bit by forcing your schedule on them.

 

[AdaminCO]

The RH stays in the 30s in my house, I keep a humidifier going during lights on sitting next to the passive intake of the tent. That takes it from the 33-38% RH no humidifier, to 48-52% with humidifier going. Think it would be worth investing in a second humidifier? @Ironmike340

Only been watering 2x per week. 1 gallon with nutes early in the week then 1 gallon just ph'ed 3-4 days later. Using distilled water will all waterings.

I don't know if I'm allowed to do this but I've been following @The Mechanic @Gazoo and @Emilya and learning an absolute ton! Any of you have a minute to give me your .02 I would greatly appreciate it. I know you are all very busy and follow and help a lot of people already so if I'm over stepping my bounds then please tell me so. Thanks in advance and thanks again @Ironmike340

Here’s a good VPD chart to follow.

 

[ChefDGreen]

It’s exactly as Emilya said. You gotta let them dry out to the core. That’s the droopiness..

The second and third pictures show the leaves at the top of the plant with a decent amount of folding right down the center. It’s not crazy severe yet, but it’s an indicator that that particular plant wants less light.

 

[MightyMoe22]

Thank you for the chart @AdaminCO I will be printing that off when I get home and keeping it close for reference.

Thank you for the insight and advice @Emilya and for being helpful to all of us newbies. I just got caught up on your vulx experiment, tons of info, trying to retain all I can, I suppose those things take time. I will hold off on watering again until she's good and dry, and ill raise my fixture up a couple of inches and just observe the changes @ChefDGreen

I'll post update pics here in a few day so any that have helped me can see the results I get, from advice I've recieved.

She's my only one going currently and really want to see her through to the end, in style.

Cheers everyone! And thanks again for making a moment to point me in the right direction!

 

[MightyMoe22]

Ok so just getting home, one hell of a long day.... she seems worse!

The last time she got water was on sunday, middle of the day, now Wednesday night so 3.5 days. I felt as far down as I felt safe doing so into the soil to feel for moisture (at least 2 inches) it feels dry as a crisp. And even with my net I was able to lift the whole pot just barely to feel. Its quiet light.

I just ph'ed a gallon of DI water to 6.6, and now I'm second guessing whether I should go ahead and give it water tonight or wait until tomorrow.

@Emilya I know you said it seems awful early to be watering every 3-4 days, but she's been bushing out real fast the last week and a half. Is it possible she's actually getting thirsty instead of the opposite?

@ChefDGreen I raised the light fixture to 24'' over canopy was at 18''. With how fast she's grown the past 10-12 days she's gotten awful close to fake sun! Need to super crop some of this newer growth over, but not until she bounces back.

Here are some pics from tonight

Just for scale

You guys think I should give her a drink or give it until tomorrow? , I'm halfway to an anxiety attack, the poor things hurting and I'm too green to know what she's telling me.

*Edit* I also kind of squished/pinched around the bottom edge of of the pot and it felt crunchy there too. It is sitting on a grate in a short plastic tub that I catch runoff in and then shop vac up. So she never sits directly in standing water or anything

 

[ChefDGreen]

The rule that I follow in veg:
If it’s questionable, let it go another day. You will open your tent and see your plant physically drooping to the point of almost wilting, then you know it’s time to water. You really want to give your plant a small bit of draught stress. That way you’re ensuring that the bottom most roots are getting oxygen.

 

[ChefDGreen]

Based on your pictures, you could probably give her some water. Me personally, I wouldn’t. Just because I’ve had such good results from letting my plants get really really dry. They grow twice as fast when they think they may not get water again for a long while.

Also you don’t need to supercrop. Just tuck her tops under the trellis. That’s what it’s for.

 

[MightyMoe22]

Ok. Good to hear some affirmation on the decision I went with. That's what I settled on. Just going to wait until tomorrow. Got a busy day though so she'll prolly get that gallon of 6.6 ph DI around noon when I have a couple minutes at the house for lunch.

And yeah, wrong terminology I used there. Just meant spreading her on out a little more as to make her share the light with the rest of her nodes and not just the top!

I really appreciate the input you all have given me so far, think I'll start a journal soon. I have another tent 2x4x4, plan on getting a semi continual harvest going soonish. Tried to take 3 clones and put them in the smaller tent but none have been taking off..... just wilting away. I'll get it all figured out eventually....Rambling now... will wait to talk about the clones for a later date. Right now just hoping for a successful 1st run!

Thanks again @ChefDGreen @Emilya @AdaminCO and @Ironmike340 for the responsiveness and input. You all really are the s*%t.. thanks for lending me a minute here and there. Really trying to dial this in. So much info everywhere. Good to get some experienced opinions to help see me through this journey.

 

[ChefDGreen]

Tag me in your journal! I’ll check out what you got growin on now and then!

You know, the more I look at that last picture, I’m thinking she’s really in stagnant water like Emilya said. The leaves are all pointing straight down, but they’re not shriveled and wilting. They look like they’re suffocating.

Again, like Emilya said, let it dry until you see leaves start to wilt.. that is - still green, but like flaccid and soft.

 

[MightyMoe22]

Would running a bunch of water through today do anything for a stagnant water table? If that's my cause.

Aren't fabric pots supposed to help keep that from happening with really good drainage and breathability?

I have some FF sledgehammer flush. Would it be beneficial to run the first gallon of the flush with that? Just to rule out some kind of salt build up on the roots? Never used it before, anyone know much about it? Is it harsh on the plant? Would I be better just running a thorough flush without this time since she's already stressed?

So many questions, to do or not to do Haha. Just want to see her get better.

 

[MrSauga]

Hi MM!
I'm curious if that was a new or used 7gal fab pot? I ask because of the amount of salt buildup on the outside of the pot. For 32 days of veg it seems really extreme to have that much.
I use Emilya's watering method too, but if the pots are noticeably light, and you just know if they are, then they need watering. It's possible you are giving lots but watering too fast, blowing right past the medium, hence you feel you need to water more. Slow your watering speed down, let the pot soak up the water, and you'll probably find the pot feels a lot heavier when done right.
If the plant perks up after watering then it's lack of water. If it stays droopy then chances are she has wet feet.

 

[MightyMoe22]

Hey @MrSauga ! It was new at the beginning of this run, I've kinda been scratching my head about that too, the salt build up does seem quiet extreme. Makes me wonder what my poor roots look like.

Do you have any experience with the FF sledgehammer? Think I should send some through this time? Just haven't used it yet, don't want to do something that may stress her more.

I very well may have watered too fast the last couple times, I will slow way down and hope that helps too.

 

[MrSauga]

Do you have any experience with the FF sledgehammer?

I do not. Before I would flush though I would wait for another opinion whether to do so or not. It's not going to hurt to wait as your plant looks healthy. With that much buildup it is a concern. The plant to me is getting a lot of sodium but your feed schedule is F-W-F-W so really you should be cleansing the plant every other feed and not see that much. If your water is high in sodium then that would make a difference as well. You risk K lockout during flower if in fact you have high amounts of sodium in the medium.

Out of curiosity, what type of soil is it? I didn't see that mentioned.

 

[MightyMoe22]

I regret going with the soil I did. A friend recommended it to me, and i listened instead of just going with the ffof like I was leaning towards. Next round will be ffof.

Here are pics of the soil currently in the 7gal and a pic of the soil it had during seedling stage in its cup.

 

[MrSauga]

OK did you mix anything in it like perlite for aeration? That's garden soil and has no means for drainage. You water is probably sitting in the bottom as mentioned. I would look at transplanting to the correct potting mix(not garden soil) and adressing the amount of nutes you are giving her next.
Best now while still in veg. Great thing about photos, it buys you time when you start to see problems before flip.