My Girl Scout Cookie is looking sad! Need nutrient help!

[Slammy Pajama]

So for probably about, a week now? My girl scout cookie looked to be experiencing nitrogen toxicity... clawing tips, dark green leaves, especially older growth was looking really dark and waxy/shiny. However, she IS sucking a lot of lower leaves down to yellow, then brown and crispy (lots more than the white widow) like she is hungry...

Now I am noticing a lot of kind of twisting of the new growth? And some of the leaf lobes look reeeally skinny and long. She always looked a little more sativa in pheno than the WW, but this is definitely dramatically skinnier leaves again

in some spots. Maybe I've got compound issues?

-1 White Widow, and 1 Girl Scout Cookies, both 75 days from seed. Sprouted in small peat cups, then solo cups, then to roughly 8 gallon fabric pots by day 24

-Soil is a mix of 50L Canna Professional, roughly 25L Canna Professional Plus Coir, 25L supersoil compost mix from local grow distributor here in aus, and about 20L of additional perlite, let cook for a little over 8 weeks

-I did treat my mix with some extra dolomite lime to to raise the pH as it was around 6.0 initially, I raised to about 6.6-6.7 and my tap water is just about neutral, so its at about 6.8 as of today

-water here tests extremely low for chlorine, but I still leave my water container out and open for over 24 hours before using to water

-I have foliar fed some trace elements (pictured below) at 1/4 strength to try and combat the beginnings (i believe) of Fe deficiency, and possibly a little Zinc. Has been about 1 or 1.5 litres of enhanced water over the past maybe 2 days. My White Widow bounced back and is looking greener after this, but my GSC is still sad! And looks to have other problems

-Cabinet dimensions: 1.8m tall, 1.1m wide, .5m deep. Mylar wrapped inside, 6" 350 cfm exhaust fan with a large carbon filter robbing probly, 20% maybe? Not exactly sure what kind of losses to expect from them. 4" intake on back of cab

-2 small usb fans mounted either side to create some additional airflow and swirling down low

-ViparSpectra PAR450 dimmable, about
800mm above the canopy, Dimmers set: R=60% W=100% B=100%

-Temps have been consistently 17-19 Celsius at night, and 23-25 with lights on

-RH is staying between 50-55%

-No other added nutes, although I do have some Canna Bio Vega & Flores just in case I run into drastic problems with my first grow. Trying to grow full organic and feed the soil, but I'm definitely new to this so I'm assuming it won't go perfect!

 

[Slammy Pajama]

Huh... well i put the pics in a weird spot.. but oh well xD. Here is my white widow for comparison, and a pic of them side by side in the cabinet (getting a little cramped!)

 

[Slammy Pajama]

Oh yea, here are the trace elements I gave a little of

 

[Nunyabiz]

Looks like Magnesium deficiency.
If you're in basically coco then seems like a bit lower pH would be better.

 

[Emilya Green]

Looks like Magnesium deficiency.
If you're in basically coco then seems like a bit lower pH would be better.

not even close to coco... this is a supersoil / organic soil layered mix.

@Slammy Pajama , see the word chelate on every ingredient on the yates product? That means salt... that means not organic. This stuff is probably pretty toxic to microlife too. So now you have an organic grow with a greatly reduced microlife population. It is no wonder you are starting to see feeding difficulties as a result. I made the same mistake early in my organic grow experience using Liquid Karma... a very similar product and it was killing my grow too.
So you need a quick infusion of microlife. The old method was to brew a compost tea rich in the minerals you wish to feed to the plant, so that you developed microlife specific to those elements to add back into the soil. The modern way to do this is to use one of the microbial tea concentrations available commercially like Voodoo Juice or URB, or the cheap freeze dried RealGrowers Recharge to put back into your soil a rich variety of very healthy microbes that are guaranteed to get your organic soil grow going again. You know the adage that in organic gardening you don't feed the plants, you feed the microbes? The soil is already fed and cooked with the raw nutrients, but you need the workhorses, the microlife that do all the heavy lifting. Complete that feeding cycle again, and this will get going good again.

 

[Slammy Pajama]

Its a full organic grow so I haven't been altering pH, soil mix has some coco mixed in for water retention/aeration, but it's definitely far more compost, perlite, and peat potting mix than coco. I Have supplemented some added liquid dolomite lime previously (probably about a month ago?) to combat a little bit of Ca deficiency that popped up, so I would've thought that would help preload some magnesium, plus the trace elements I foliar fed with has some magnesium as well. Does magnesium cause twisting and thinning of new growth? Thought it was a mobile nutrient, so more likely to show in older growth. Thanks for the reply! Trying to learn all I can!

 

[Slammy Pajama]

not even close to coco... this is a supersoil / organic soil layered mix.

@Slammy Pajama , see the word chelate on every ingredient on the yates product? That means salt... that means not organic. This stuff is probably pretty toxic to microlife too. So now you have an organic grow with a greatly reduced microlife population. It is no wonder you are starting to see feeding difficulties as a result. I made the same mistake early in my organic grow experience using Liquid Karma... a very similar product and it was killing my grow too.
So you need a quick infusion of microlife. The old method was to brew a compost tea rich in the minerals you wish to feed to the plant, so that you developed microlife specific to those elements to add back into the soil. The modern way to do this is to use one of the microbial tea concentrations available commercially like Voodoo Juice or URB, or the cheap freeze dried RealGrowers Recharge to put back into your soil a rich variety of very healthy microbes that are guaranteed to get your organic soil grow going again. You know the adage that in organic gardening you don't feed the plants, you feed the microbes? The soil is already fed and cooked with the raw nutrients, but you need the workhorses, the microlife that do all the heavy lifting. Complete that feeding cycle again, and this will get going good again.

:O what a goldmine!! Thanks for all the input! Damnnnn, I wasn't sure if this would be going against my whole organic attempt, but couldn't find any info online about what would be a good dry amendment to top dress to try and boost some of the available Fe or Zi for the microbes to feed the plant! Thanks for jumping in Emilya, I have been studying your thread on correctly watering potted plants, and it is a treasure trove of great information!! Feels like I'm in the presence of a legend :'D

So when starting to see deficiencies, do you usually just start with a recharge of microbes via good aerated worm tea or one of the commercial options listed above before actually trying to top dress or add nutrients to the soil? I'm not sure how to tell if the plant needs nutrients because the soil needs to be reamended/top dressed, or if it just needs a boost in microbial life to make more available the nutrients that are present. Especially being my first grow, I'm not sure how long I should expect the amendments in my soil to feed these girls before needing to be topped up.

Thanks so much for the reply!! I will rush right out to get something to recharge the microbial population, and will seal the bottle of chelates away forever!

 

[Nunyabiz]

Its a full organic grow so I haven't been altering pH, soil mix has some coco mixed in for water retention/aeration, but it's definitely far more compost, perlite, and peat potting mix than coco. I Have supplemented some added liquid dolomite lime previously (probably about a month ago?) to combat a little bit of Ca deficiency that popped up, so I would've thought that would help preload some magnesium, plus the trace elements I foliar fed with has some magnesium as well. Does magnesium cause twisting and thinning of new growth? Thought it was a mobile nutrient, so more likely to show in older growth. Thanks for the reply! Trying to learn all I can!

Gotcha, I misread it the first time.
For some reason thought it said mostly coco.

 

[Emilya Green]

magnesium is semi mobile in the plant and can show its deficiencies at random places. preloading magnesium will lock out other elements.. so that could be part of the problem. Anything that you add to the soil is going to have lasting consequences. That liquid lime definitely was not good for your microlife as it had to really knock the pH up some notches, so these poor microbeasties have gotten a double hit. dolomite lime was not the prefered way to add Ca to the soil, oyster shell flour, bone meal, egg shells... or the normal organic calmag or my recipe made from egg shells and vinegar... all would have been organic and would not have harmed your soil. Also, you seem to still be in the mode of feeding the plants/soil by adding things... when it should (except for magnesium) be in the supersoil already and you should be adding and feeding micro life, so they in turn can feed your plants.

 

[Emilya Green]

:O what a goldmine!! Thanks for all the input! Damnnnn, I wasn't sure if this would be going against my whole organic attempt, but couldn't find any info online about what would be a good dry amendment to top dress to try and boost some of the available Fe or Zi for the microbes to feed the plant! Thanks for jumping in Emilya, I have been studying your thread on correctly watering potted plants, and it is a treasure trove of great information!! Feels like I'm in the presence of a legend :'D

So when starting to see deficiencies, do you usually just start with a recharge of microbes via good aerated worm tea or one of the commercial options listed above before actually trying to top dress or add nutrients to the soil? I'm not sure how to tell if the plant needs nutrients because the soil needs to be reamended/top dressed, or if it just needs a boost in microbial life to make more available the nutrients that are present. Especially being my first grow, I'm not sure how long I should expect the amendments in my soil to feed these girls before needing to be topped up.

Thanks so much for the reply!! I will rush right out to get something to recharge the microbial population, and will seal the bottle of chelates away forever!

The amendments in your soil should last not just through this grow, but for the next 2 or 3 grows... you could actually reuse this soil without much problem being that minerally rich. It is all in there, but your plants can not directly use it. Plants work hand in hand with the microbes in the soil and have no direct way to grab nutrients right out of the soil as most of them are not yet in a usable form. Nitrogen is one of the few elements that does occur in a natural form that the plants can use, so many times we don't notice the lack of a healthy feeding circle until the end of veg when the available N gets used up, or when the feeding needs of the maturing plant go beyond the need for just Nitrogen.

Top dressing is not how we feed organic grows. You have already fed the grow by using super soil and by cooking the soil with all of its amendments prior to the grow. It is all in there, but not in a form the plants can use.
Even with top dressing, the only portion of the available nutrients that becomes available to the plant is the small portion that happens to be water soluble, a very very very small part of the overall package. Top dressing is not intended to feed the plants that day, it is intended to seep a raw nutrient into the soil so that the microbes can start working on it, to eventually make all of its goodness available to the plant.
In an organic grow, without the active microlife doing its job, on every nutrient the plant needs at that stage in its life, you might as well be growing in sand. Without microlife doing its job, an organic grow will begin to starve, as yours is now, and your only choice is to either recharge the microlife with a specific tea made with the exact nutrients that are needed at that time in the grow, not to feed the plants, but so as to create thriving microlife that feed on that exact nutrient, or you need to feed artificially from a bottle. If the microbes are of the type that can feed on it in the aact pitcher, then they will continue to feed on that exact same thing in your soil, passing on the fully processed nutrients to the plant. The nutrients in our teas are not for the plants, or the soil, they are for the microlife that we wish to incubate.

 

[Slammy Pajama]

magnesium is semi mobile in the plant and can show its deficiencies at random places. preloading magnesium will lock out other elements.. so that could be part of the problem. Anything that you add to the soil is going to have lasting consequences. That liquid lime definitely was not good for your microlife as it had to really knock the pH up some notches, so these poor microbeasties have gotten a double hit. dolomite lime was not the prefered way to add Ca to the soil, oyster shell flour, bone meal, egg shells... or the normal organic calmag or my recipe made from egg shells and vinegar... all would have been organic and would not have harmed your soil. Also, you seem to still be in the mode of feeding the plants/soil by adding things... when it should (except for magnesium) be in the supersoil already and you should be adding and feeding micro life, so they in turn can feed your plants.

Awesome, thank you! Looks like I need to put aside my worries and just fully commit to the living organic soil, or else I am shooting myself in the foot! How quickly can something like egg shells be broken down to become available to the plants? Do I need to be much quicker to notice and amend for nutrient deficiencies, to give them time to break down and become available? It would make a lot of sense that I've killed off my microbes, as the plant that's had more dolomite lime is definitely looking sadder than the other . Time to reinoculate!

Thank you so much for the help! Hopefully after reinoculating, they will be looking happier!

How soon after a good dose of microbes should i expect to see some recovery? If I am diluting to a healthy concentration, is it possible to apply microbial teas or supplements too often? Or is it something that is safe to do frequently to ensure a good population of friends? Sorry to turn this into a thousand questions, you just know so much about everything I want to learn!

 

[Emilya Green]

egg shells in their raw form take months to break down... ground up it is a little faster, but the best way to turn them in to the calcium phosphate that is needed is by fermentation. By adding vinegar and fermenting them for 20 days, you can break them down into their components, mainly Ca and P. Just adding them to the soil as a top dressing is just going to get a small amount of water soluble benefit, but not very much.
If you had not messed with this soil by adding stuff that messed with the microbes, you would not be having deficiencies, with the exception of a possible magnesium deficiency. It is not possible to preload enough magnesium into a soil without locking out other vital nutrients, so it has to be added as needed throughout the grow.
After getting a healthy tribe of microbeasties in there working you should expect to see the feeding cycle repair itself within 48 hours and you should see a dramatic improvement to the plant. Considering the nature of your problem, I would be producing teas or innoculating with one of the superpac products at least every 10 days. Especially considering what is going on in that container to the microlife, I would replenish them on every watering for a while. If you ever happened to get too many microbes in there, they would simply run out of resources and die back to a healthy level... but frankly, on this grow, that is not going to be a problem.

 

[Emilya Green]

Emmie's DIY CalMagPhos+ From Eggshells

This is an awesome product to use during the changeover period from growing to flowering/fruiting on all of your plants. For most of us, by using molasses we are able to get the magnesium that our plants need, but for our calcium needs, most of us have to fall back on a commercial product, and...

www.420magazine.com

 

[Slammy Pajama]

Emmie's DIY CalMagPhos+ From Eggshells

This is an awesome product to use during the changeover period from growing to flowering/fruiting on all of your plants. For most of us, by using molasses we are able to get the magnesium that our plants need, but for our calcium needs, most of us have to fall back on a commercial product, and...

www.420magazine.com

INVALUABLE!! Thank you so much!! Hell Yea, some more fantastic reading to get stuck into!! This is all amazing information, and exactly what I needed to know! My grow methods will forever be changed. I really appreciate all the knowledge you have shared!! I'm sure my plants will appreciate it too! thanks again!!

 

[Slammy Pajama]

The amendments in your soil should last not just through this grow, but for the next 2 or 3 grows... you could actually reuse this soil without much problem being that minerally rich. It is all in there, but your plants can not directly use it. Plants work hand in hand with the microbes in the soil and have no direct way to grab nutrients right out of the soil as most of them are not yet in a usable form. Nitrogen is one of the few elements that does occur in a natural form that the plants can use, so many times we don't notice the lack of a healthy feeding circle until the end of veg when the available N gets used up, or when the feeding needs of the maturing plant go beyond the need for just Nitrogen.

Top dressing is not how we feed organic grows. You have already fed the grow by using super soil and by cooking the soil with all of its amendments prior to the grow. It is all in there, but not in a form the plants can use.
Even with top dressing, the only portion of the available nutrients that becomes available to the plant is the small portion that happens to be water soluble, a very very very small part of the overall package. Top dressing is not intended to feed the plants that day, it is intended to seep a raw nutrient into the soil so that the microbes can start working on it, to eventually make all of its goodness available to the plant.
In an organic grow, without the active microlife doing its job, on every nutrient the plant needs at that stage in its life, you might as well be growing in sand. Without microlife doing its job, an organic grow will begin to starve, as yours is now, and your only choice is to either recharge the microlife with a specific tea made with the exact nutrients that are needed at that time in the grow, not to feed the plants, but so as to create thriving microlife that feed on that exact nutrient, or you need to feed artificially from a bottle. If the microbes are of the type that can feed on it in the aact pitcher, then they will continue to feed on that exact same thing in your soil, passing on the fully processed nutrients to the plant. The nutrients in our teas are not for the plants, or the soil, they are for the microlife that we wish to incubate.

Just an update, because you're the best!!

I know it's not ideal, but I was about to leave town for the week and couldn't brew or source any AACT in time. So I took the risk and diluted a tiny amount of worm leachate from the bottom of my worm bin into 2 litres (has a drain left open all the time, and was dumped about 12 hours earlier, so pretty fresh. No bad smell, although I know leachate can carry some nastiness leached out of the soil/food/vermicompost).

At any rate, I gave about a litre to each girl, very slowly and spread around the top of the soil so as to absorb and not run through the pot (against my better watering practices, I know! xD ). That was Sunday night... now, Tuesday arvo, my missus had a peek in the cab for me while we skyped, and even through her terrible phone camera, there is already a night and day difference

Thanks so much for jumping in to help me out and putting me back on the path to a true organic grow! I will try to include pics when I can get back into town, and will be ONLY topping up the microherd for the duration of this (and any subsequent) grow. Reading through your fermented dandelion extract thread now.... so many fantastic ideas and experiments!! I cannot thank you enough for the invaluable knowledge and inspiration you share with all of us!!!