Newbie Grower, Carmen Auto x Diva, Outdoors

[CBDMed]

Ok, I was not sure if I should start a new thread, or keep going in the same one.
I have a Solo-Cup-With-New-Bagged-Soil question.

Batch 2: dead (oy)
I tried planting a new batch of seeds to replace the ones that are ill, in the new soil, and they all died (oy).
Now I wonder if maybe I did not give the seeds nearly enough moisture?
I soaked the seeds 12 hours in water, and then put them in soil, but now I wonder if this new soil is too dry.
Was I supposed to soak it first?

Batch 3: Looking good but needs water very soon (to-day)!
Because of my bad second batch, I thought with the third batch I would use Root Riot cubes (because I have never missed with those), and also up-pot, as @Emilya suggested.
I put some of the new bagged soil in Solo cups with holes cut for drainage, and then I put (moist) Root Riot organic cubes in the soil.
I soaked the seeds 12 hours again, and now all seven seeds (Sweet Nurse Auto CBD) came right up, and they are looking healthy!
Only, now I tried to moisten the soil in the cup that is around the Root Riot cube. I gave it maybe seven or eight good squirts, and the top looks wet, but from the sides they still look really dry. (And now I wonder if that is why my seeds that I direct-buried died?)
I originally wanted red Solo cups, and was disappointed when they were clear, but now I see the blessing in the cups being clear!
How do I wet this soil? Because I would think that the roots will be wanting to poke their little feet outside of the Root Riot cubes right about now.

What should I do?
I am a bit gunshy about overwatering them because of the boondoggle with the overwatered old clay soil, but I can tell that these are going to need a lot more water!
Do I bottom-soak them?
Or dribble it down the sides?
And how much water should I give them?
Thank you!

(Ironically, at first I was not happy that the cups were clear, as I wanted them to be red [and therefore opaque], for the benefit of the roots. But now I am very glad that the cups are clear, because otherwise I would not have known that my soil is so dry!)
Any words of seedling and watering wisdom in bagged soil would be very much appreciated.

 

[Emilya Green]

Ok, I was not sure if I should start a new thread, or keep going in the same one.
I have a Solo-Cup-With-New-Bagged-Soil question.

Batch 2: dead (oy)
I tried planting a new batch of seeds to replace the ones that are ill, in the new soil, and they all died (oy).
Now I wonder if maybe I did not give the seeds nearly enough moisture?
I soaked the seeds 12 hours in water, and then put them in soil, but now I wonder if this new soil is too dry.
Was I supposed to soak it first?

Batch 3: Looking good but needs water very soon (to-day)!
Because of my bad second batch, I thought with the third batch I would use Root Riot cubes (because I have never missed with those), and also up-pot, as @Emilya suggested.
I put some of the new bagged soil in Solo cups with holes cut for drainage, and then I put (moist) Root Riot organic cubes in the soil.
I soaked the seeds 12 hours again, and now all seven seeds (Sweet Nurse Auto CBD) came right up, and they are looking healthy!
Only, now I tried to moisten the soil in the cup that is around the Root Riot cube. I gave it maybe seven or eight good squirts, and the top looks wet, but from the sides they still look really dry. (And now I wonder if that is why my seeds that I direct-buried died?)
I originally wanted red Solo cups, and was disappointed when they were clear, but now I see the blessing in the cups being clear!
How do I wet this soil? Because I would think that the roots will be wanting to poke their little feet outside of the Root Riot cubes right about now.

What should I do?
I am a bit gunshy about overwatering them because of the boondoggle with the overwatered old clay soil, but I can tell that these are going to need a lot more water!
Do I bottom-soak them?
Or dribble it down the sides?
And how much water should I give them?
Thank you!

(Ironically, at first I was not happy that the cups were clear, as I wanted them to be red [and therefore opaque], for the benefit of the roots. But now I am very glad that the cups are clear, because otherwise I would not have known that my soil is so dry!)
Any words of seedling and watering wisdom in bagged soil would be very much appreciated.

I will suggest that you still get some opaque cups to slip these down into so that you can block the light from the roots and still be able to lift them out to look at your roots. Roots do not like light. By this time it should be safe to soak that soil to the point of runoff and then wait to see how long it takes the plants to use up all that water. Give a little around the edges every 3 or 4 days to keep things going, but wait until the plants drain most of the water before watering again to runoff, even if it takes a week.

 

[Azimuth]

I would bottom water them to give the roots something to find as they go exploring. And some of the water you are putting near the stem will drop with gravity and the roots will follow it down. Watering at this stage is the most tricky part of the grow since the roots are so small and delicate. So, no drying them out until they get a bit more established.

And, for new pots/cups, I like to oversaturate the intended medium and then squeeze it as hard as I can to get out the excess water before I fill the pots. That should leave it as moist as a wrung out sponge which is perfect.

So, to answer your original question, no putting seeds or new cuts in dry soil. But not wet either. Using the squeeze technique will get the mix at a perfect moisture for their early days.

And those clear solo cups will slide into the opaque ones if you can get them. Then you have the best of both worlds, you can slide the clear cup out to have a look at the soil and roots, but the outer cover helps shield the roots from light. That's the way I do all of mine until they get to the final container I will flower them in.

******
Edit: I will amend my comments to say follow Em's advice on how to water the seedling from here and disregard my bottom watering thoughts. We were posting simultaneously and she is whom I would follow on watering a new seedling.

 

[Emilya Green]

Edit: I will amend my comments to say follow Em's advice on how to water the seedling from here and disregard my bottom watering thoughts.

made me giggle... always keep gravity in mind. When you water to runoff, the extra water has nowhere to go but down. To that point, I "bottom water" too, lol, from the top.

 

[CBDMed]

Em, Azimuth, thank you so much!

Azimuth, thank you for telling me about the wrung-out-sponge effect. I will try to do that in the future.
Thank you for telling me also to go with Em's advice, and not to bottom-soak.
Only, too late! I already bottom-soaked a little when I read your first email--but it only soaked the bottom couple of inches of the cup, and did not wick up (photos below).

Then I saw that Azimuth said to follow Em's advice, so I drained the water into a bucket, and then dug around the sides of the cups to see how moist the soil was.
I am not sure, but I think the top bit is hinting at being moist (but not uniformly)?

So, how do I get the soil uniformly moist at this point? (Or do I not do that? Or is it impossible at this point?)
And should I leave it where it is now, and just continue to wet it every 3-4 days, like Em said? (Meaning, it isn't too dry???)
That is, the moisture you can see just digging around the sides is enough to last for 3-4 days??
Thank you!

 

[Azimuth]

By this time it should be safe to soak that soil to the point of runoff and then wait to see how long it takes the plants to use up all that water. Give a little around the edges every 3 or 4 days to keep things going, but wait until the plants drain most of the water before watering again to runoff, even if it takes a week.

She is saying to give it a good watering now and let it dry out except for small amounts of water around the edges every three days to keep the feeder roots entertained, but not a good watering until the cup feels surprisingly light when you pick it up.

And "soak the soil to the point of runoff" does not mean when you first see water coming out the drain ports. Much of your initial water will bypass your mix and head straight down the cup edges. That's especially true if you've got a decent percentage of peat moss the has gone dry. At that point it is hydrophobic meaning it will more readily shed water than absorb it.

That means it will take either a slower watering pace and/or a wetting agent added to the water like aloe to wet the medium to the point it is uniformly moist.

Thank you for telling me also to go with Em's advice, and not to bottom-soak.
Only, too late! I already bottom-soaked a little when I read your first email--but it only soaked the bottom couple of inches of the cup, and did not wick up (photos below).

Ha! Em's is probably better advice, but I would have bottom watered like you did.

 

[CBDMed]

Thanks, Azimuth. I think I understand Em's advice now.
Your damp sponge advice (to overwater and then squeeze dry) sounds the best. I will try to remember that in the future. If I had done it that way, I probably would have understood Em's advice the first time. (Em's advice makes perfect sense in that context.)
Thanks, I think I know what to do now. (Now let us see if I can do it!)
I will try to get some colored cups to slide over the clear...

 

[Sueet]

Thanks, Azimuth. I think I understand Em's advice now.
Your damp sponge advice (to overwater and then squeeze dry) sounds the best. I will try to remember that in the future. If I had done it that way, I probably would have understood Em's advice the first time. (Em's advice makes perfect sense in that context.)
Thanks, I think I know what to do now. (Now let us see if I can do it!)
I will try to get some colored cups to slide over the clear...

In the meantime you can just use another clear cup with paper bag or something opaque wrapped around it (or even just put a bag or other container around the plant cup) - they wont be in there for long, it doesn't need to be perfect.

 

[Azimuth]

In the meantime you can just use another clear cup with paper bag or something opaque wrapped around it (or even just put a bag or other container around the plant cup) - they wont be in there for long, it doesn't need to be perfect.

That's a good idea. Or sandwich something opaque between two of the clear ones.

 

[CBDMed]

Ok, thanks. And it does not need to breathe from the bottom cut-holes?

 

[Azimuth]

Ideally yes, but the slits are mostly for drainage.

 

[CBDMed]

Ok, so should I just continue the progress report here?
Well, I had to take a two-day trip to somewhere, and I was a little concerned, but I watered everything real good (maybe 4-5 times the normal watering), and got home late last night. When I took a flashlight, I was very happily surprised to see everyone doing much better than I had thought!
Now it is morning, so I inspected again before watering.

There are three Barney's Farm LSD were planted on 4-11 in the doctored-up soil that @Azimuth and @SmokingWings helped me to make up. The moisture probe said there was a little moisture in the top 3-4 inches, and then below that was basically dry, so I gave them maybe double the usual dose of water (20 sprays with the sprayer bottle).
Should I give them even more, so the moisture can reach the bottom of the pot? Because I am not sure this doctored-up soil holds water all that well, compared.
(And is one representative photo good enough here? Because they all look fairly similar.)

Then there is one Delicious Candy that was also planted on 4-11 in the new bagged boutique soil. The top 3-4 inches was reasonably moist, and then below that was still moist going all the way to the bottom of the pot. I gave it a usual watering, trying to spray at about 3x a leaf width. Is that right?

So.... I was not too concerned about the girls I planted on 4-11, but these are seven Sweet Nurse Autos that I planted on 4-19 (10 days ago) in the new boutique bagged soil.
When I left the tops of the cups were still dry, and I was worried about it, so I sprayed maybe a dozen sprayer squirts around the rim, trying to get the soil in the upper part of the cup moist, and said some prayers that they would be alright. (There was no drip-runoff.) And then I had to run.
I had put some black plastic around the first Solo cup, and then held it in place with another Solo cup, as @Emilya and @Sueet advised.

Having been concerned and praying for two days, imagine my surprise when I took them out of the cups this morning, and what to my wondering eyes should appear, but it seems like not only had the moisture evened out, but it looks like I see roots coming all the way to the bottom of the Solo cups?!?!?!?!
Wow!! I did not expect that!! (Is 'stunned' the right word?)

This one is fairly indicative. They all looked like that. (So is one photo good enough?)
I did not give them any water, and I am just guessing they won't need any tomorrow either (but I will check).
I am just guessing I will need to spray some water around the rim the day after tomorrow as @Emilya advised, but I will monitor them for weight and appearance, as @Azimuth said.

And to be complete, this is a top view.

My questions:
1. How much water should I give the three LSD in the doctored-up soil, above? Do I want the moisture to reach the bottom of the pot?
And am I watering wide enough? Or do I want to water even a little further from the stem?

2. I am still waiting for my aquarium air bubbler and air stones to come in (probably 2 more weeks here), so in the meantime I have been giving them some organic liquid root-enhancing fertilizer I brought with me from Chile. And then when the bubbler gets here I will try to ferment either that, or bubble the Bionova Veganics Grow formula, and maybe also try to bubble some dandelions, as @Emilya suggested (and I have to read that thread again).

But is once a week good for the fertilizer? Or what is the ideal fertilizing frequency?

3. Maybe are my eyes playing tricks on me, but are the seven seedlings I planted in the Solo cups on 4-19 doing almost as well as the four I planted in the full-sized containers on 4-11??????

And is that a normal effect of starting in a small pot? Or is that perhaps due to a more vigorous strain, or perhaps some other factor? Because I am having a hard time understanding why they seem so close in size.

And just to comment, I am completely sold on the new boutique fertilizer.
I need to read Em's two threads on watering plants again (the one for up-potting, and the one for planting the seeds direct).

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!!

 

[Azimuth]

Those are pretty big containers for such small plants and that will explain why the ones in the smaller cups are doing better. It has to do with the roots and the ability of them to drain the surrounding water. The larger containers can hold too much water for the small plants to drain quickly and therefore is a source of stress for them. You are right to want to reread Em's How to Water a Seedling in it's final container thread. They may also be a bit stunted if the lower roots are drying out too much.

If your larger pots are indicating dry down to the bottom it is time to water a little more heavily. Pots usually dry out from the top to bottom, so I assume you are spritzing the tops keeping the feeder roots happy, but you'll also need to show the lower roots some love as well. Just don't go crazy. They are too small for you to fully water the entire pot.

Fertilizers are a nute specific question. Many bottled nutes suggest a schedule of nutes every other watering with plain water in between. Some of the organic top dressing products like GeoFlora suggest every two weeks for adding more.

 

[CBDMed]

Those are pretty big containers for such small plants and that will explain why the ones in the smaller cups are doing better. It has to do with the roots and the ability of them to drain the surrounding water. The larger containers can hold too much water for the small plants to drain quickly and therefore is a source of stress for them. You are right to want to reread Em's How to Water a Seedling in it's final container thread. They may also be a bit stunted if the lower roots are drying out too much.

If your larger pots are indicating dry down to the bottom it is time to water a little more heavily. Pots usually dry out from the top to bottom, so I assume you are spritzing the tops keeping the feeder roots happy, but you'll also need to show the lower roots some love as well. Just don't go crazy. They are too small for you to fully water the entire pot.

Fertilizers are a nute specific question. Many bottled nutes suggest a schedule of nutes every other watering with plain water in between. Some of the organic top dressing products like GeoFlora suggest every two weeks for adding more.

Azimuth, thank you. I am learning a ton.
Could you please say more about the importance of the roots being able to drain the surrounding water? Why is that so important to the plant? (Does that show the plant that it is not in a swamp? Or what is the point of that? I.e., what does the plant get out of that?)

I was going to say that I *just* got my moisture meter, and did not realize that the three homemade-soil buckets were so dry down below the top 3-4 inches. I gave them enough water to make it wet about 2/3rds of the way down after about a five minute wait, and I imagine that water will continue trickling down to the bottom of the bucket, so tomorrow I will measure them again, and I imagine that it will be wet on the bottom of the bucket also--and I will try to keep it that way.

"you'll also need to show the lower roots some love as well. Just don't go crazy. They are too small for you to fully water the entire pot."

I thought to ask if maybe the dryness of the homemade buckets could account for the fact that they are not bigger, because they were not getting water down lower--but the soil was also dryer down lower, and so was there basically about a Solo-cup's-worth of moist soil in those buckets??? And if so, then why would the seedlings not grow about the same as the plants in Solo cups?

One confusing factor is that the soil in the boutique-bag-soil-bucket was moist all the way to the bottom, and that plant is also about the same size as the three home-made-soil plants.
So what I don't get is, if not having enough moisture down to the bottom is the thing, then why isn't the plant with the boutique soil doing better than the three in the homemade soil? (And just to comment, that fact seems to agree with you.)

I guess my mind is goggling that a Solo cup can make such a difference.

And does it follow that plants that are up-potted are always going to grow faster than plants which are planted in soil? And if so, what does that say about in-ground grows? Do you want to up-pot them until you run out of pot? Or do you just want to get bigger and bigger pots for them (rather than grow them in-ground)?

Thank you.

 

[Emilya Green]

Could you please say more about the importance of the roots being able to drain the surrounding water? Why is that so important to the plant? (Does that show the plant that it is not in a swamp? Or what is the point of that? I.e., what does the plant get out of that?)

If I may, I would like to address this point. When the plant has drained most of the water in a container, it does a very smart thing... it develops new roots in order to seek out the very last drop of water. Without the impending need to find water, such as in a plant that gets watered too early, the plant has no need to spend energy on developing new roots, so it doesn't. A plant being starved into a wet/dry cycle, always looking for water, will have a much stronger root system than a coddled plant.

 

[CBDMed]

If I may, I would like to address this point. When the plant has drained most of the water in a container, it does a very smart thing... it develops new roots in order to seek out the very last drop of water. Without the impending need to find water, such as in a plant that gets watered too early, the plant has no need to spend energy on developing new roots, so it doesn't. A plant being starved into a wet/dry cycle, always looking for water, will have a much stronger root system than a coddled plant.

Thank you very much, Emilya!
That makes it very clear.

 

[Azimuth]

Could you please say more about the importance of the roots being able to drain the surrounding water? Why is that so important to the plant? (Does that show the plant that it is not in a swamp? Or what is the point of that? I.e., what does the plant get out of that?)

See Em's comments above. Generally stronger roots will be able to support a bigger and healthier plant. If there is available water there is little need for the plant to develop new roots since they already have the moisture they need. When the soil dries out the roots no longer have access to moisture so they grow in all directions searching it out.

When they find the water, or in your case when the water finds them from your watering, the newly expanded root structure can now support a larger plant. As below, so above.

I thought to ask if maybe the dryness of the homemade buckets could account for the fact that they are not bigger, because they were not getting water down lower--but the soil was also dryer down lower, and so was there basically about a Solo-cup's-worth of moist soil in those buckets??? And if so, then why would the seedlings not grow about the same as the plants in Solo cups?

With solo cups it's much easier to control the amount of, or lack of, water around the roots. With bigger buckets and a smallish plant there can be pockets of moisture that the plant has access to that you aren't aware of. If there is moisture, the roots don't grow. And if there is too much moisture for too long it can lead to root rot. But if they are constantly dry they eventually dry out. They need the alternating wet/dry cycle to keep them interested. The roots are hunting moisture, or traces of moisture looking for a pocket of water. Even soil that has mostly dried out to our standards still has micro-pockets of moisture that the microbes access or even store in their bodies.

But, if you've never wetted the bottom of the pot, there may not exist the traces of moisture that encourage the roots to want to explore. So it could be a combination of enough local moisture to keep the existing roots happy, and a lack of some lower moisture. The roots are not going to explore a dry pocket if there is ample moisture in their proximity.

One confusing factor is that the soil in the boutique-bag-soil-bucket was moist all the way to the bottom, and that plant is also about the same size as the three home-made-soil plants.
So what I don't get is, if not having enough moisture down to the bottom is the thing, then why isn't the plant with the boutique soil doing better than the three in the homemade soil? (And just to comment, that fact seems to agree with you.)

Think of it this way, the first time you water the cup or pot, the soil gets wet. Probably too wet in most cases since it forces oxygen out of the root zone. That's why plants often droop and look overwatered immediately after watering. It's actually a lack of O2 that the plants are responding to. But then the roots suck up some of that water giving it to the plant which then transpires it out the top of the canopy leading to a pressure change and has the roots sucking up more water, drying the mix and bringing oxygen back down to the roots in the process. Once the soil dries sufficiently the roots explore new territory for their fix.

I guess my mind is goggling that a Solo cup can make such a difference.

Mostly because you are better able to determine true dryness of the container. The ratio of soil mix to root mass is more balanced.

And does it follow that plants that are up-potted are always going to grow faster than plants which are planted in soil? And if so, what does that say about in-ground grows? Do you want to up-pot them until you run out of pot? Or do you just want to get bigger and bigger pots for them (rather than grow them in-ground)?

Properly managed, probably, because the wet/dry cycle is more uniform you can be reasonably sure how dry is dry as you can judge the weight of the container. With in-ground plants you never really know where the water table might be, or how wet the recent rain really got the soil, or how deeply the soil got watered. So the roots still respond to wet and dry, but it tends to be more haphazard. In pots you can generally know to the day when the roots are ready for another watering and thereby maximize the number of wet/dry cycles in a given period of time which then leads to a larger root system compared to a more sporadic and variable cycle times in the ground.

Properly done in the hands of someone who understands all the variables a good in-ground grow will do great. But there're just too many variables for a non-expert to be able to interpret.

 

[CBDMed]

Hey @Emilya , thanks again. May I please ask you a question?
I decided to do a direct plant because I just ordered pots from China, and they have not got here yet. (The selection and the prices online are much better than what you can find in the stores here. And it is an hour and a half each way (and they drive crazy here).
I will look for something (anything) so I can up-pot these Solo cups before putting them in the 5 gallon pots--but since I already made the mistake of planting these direct in the final container (without up-potting).
However, what do I do right now? I started watering in a ring maybe 3-times- the-length-of-the-baby-fan-leaves away from the stem, and I have watered that several times now.
So, how about if the next watering, I go 4 times the length of the fan leaves away from the stem, and the next time I go 5, and then 6, and then 7, until I hit the rim of the pot, watering each time until it is wet just baaaarely down to the bottom 1-2" of the pot (as if the Solo cup just got a little bit bigger each time)?
Is it possible that that might encourage the roots to have to keep reaching further and further from the stem, in order to find the ever-receding water?
Or what would that likely do?
Or am I stoned? (Haha.)

 

[Emilya Green]

Take your time... there is no rush to get out of the solo cups. My rule is that when 3x the diameter the plant makes as it spreads its leaves, reaches the edge of the cup (1st true leaves should be able to do this), then it is time to fully water the cup to runoff and then you start watching how long it takes the plant to drain the entire cup. When the plant can do this in a day or two, then and only then is it time to do an uppot.

 

[CBDMed]

Azimuth, wow. Thank you. There is a lot to chew on there.

"Mostly because you are better able to determine true dryness of the container. The ratio of soil mix to root mass is more balanced."

Wow, that made a lot of sense. Thank you.
I have the next size up pots on the way, but they are not here yet.
I will look in the nursery stores here if I can find anything usable as a next-step-up for up-potting from the Solo cups. There should be something.

So, at this point I guess I wonder what to do for the plants that are already in the 5G fabric pots.
Might the best thing be to keep moving the water-spray-line just a little further away from the stem, to make the roots reach a little bit more each time?
Sort of try to "expand the Solo cup" a little bit each time you water?
And then eventually water the rim of the pot, only enough to go down to the bottom of the pot (and not leave any more)?
Or what would that likely do?
I guess I am just trying to think of the best thing I can do for these four existing plants in big pots.