The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

[Azimuth]

Thats hard to say as every strain is a different shade of green, but if it's greener and not yellowing it's an improvement. Dark green, as in darker than a strain should be, is quite often an indicator of over nitrification. Brix will tell the tale. Keep a close eye for yellowing. What does the water stick say?

These are on my CBD workhorse plant so I've seen it a few times and know how they typically look.

Water stick on the flipped plant showed 10, 8, 6 on consecutive days but today is a 7 which suggests to me I'm heading in the right direction but likely not measuring it at the same depth every day. I think I'll stick some painter's tape on the meter at the level I want to read for that plant so I get more consistent.

I'm not sure what the measurement units are but I guess it doesn't really matter that much. More of a relative thing over time.

But, likely in another day or so it'll be ready for the top watering.

 

[Gidorah]

I do like the water down the fill pipe concept of SIPs but I'm not opposed to watering in a weekly or bi-weekly top dressing which would likely help with the calcium cycle Gee talks about.

But I also want the high(er) brix levels to battle bugs and I'm wondering if the SIP structure with its base level air chamber addresses that issue as well.

I'm going to try the less wet on average soil for a few cycles to see if I can get the brix levels up and then I'll likely go back to a bit wetter soil along with the periodic top watering and see what that does to the brix levels.

I think between the water meter readings and those from the refractometer I should be able to get a glimpse as to the effects of both adjustments.

On a related note, I've let my other 1L mini-SIPs dry out a bit over the past few days and the new growth is coming in in a bit lighter shade of green which i assume Gee will tell us is a sign the plant is processing N a bit better.

Curious to see the results, please share what happens

 

[Azimuth]

Curious to see the results, please share what happens

Will do. If nothing else @Gee64 will pester it out of me.

 

[Gee64]

These are on my CBD workhorse plant so I've seen it a few times and know how they typically look.

Water stick on the flipped plant showed 10, 8, 6 on consecutive days but today is a 7 which suggests to me I'm heading in the right direction but likely not measuring it at the same depth every day. I think I'll stick some painter's tape on the meter at the level I want to read for that plant so I get more consistent.

I'm not sure what the measurement units are but I guess it doesn't really matter that much. More of a relative thing over time.

But, likely in another day or so it'll be ready for the top watering.

@Azimuth I have to travel for the next 3 days and won't be on much, if at all, but if you don't mind, here's what I want you to try.

On the water stick there is likely some kind of needle to indicate moisture. Probably a 0-10 scale, and likely color coded red for dry, green for good, and black for wet.

The line between dry and good, so about 4.5-ish is your target. But heres a cool thing I want you to do that is both interesting and educational. It's actually the best part.

Don't just stick the probe in and see what moisture it is, probe it in at least 5 different places and see all the different zones you have going on in the pot. Different depths in each spot too. What you will find is that different areas dry at different rates. When you probe all 5, and 3 are in the dry zone all the way to the bottom, with only 2 left in the green zone, then it's time to water.

Don't wussy out here. You will be outside of your comfort zone.

But here's the security.... If the plant ACTUALLY becomes too dry it will wilt, so if it ain't wilted it's good, trust the stick.

Then when it's time to water by Gee's logic, as in 3 dry spots and 2 still about 5-6, I want you to top water it slowly with the exact amount of water equal to the pot size. A 1 litre takeout gets 1 litre of water.

Very slowly and very evenly over the top. Use a half cup measuring cup if you want.
Let the excess come out your overflow hole.

You are only going to do this the 1st time.

On the next waterings you can top water until you get a smidge of runoff out the overflow, but on this 1st one I need to know you did that, so I know the state of the soil.

Then let it dry down to the same levels and top water gently until the res is full, over and over. No bottom watering all the way to harvest. We will dial in a steady green zone in awhile, but for now please repeat the cycle. Then compare it to your usual grow constantly and watch for differences.

Go about top dressing, crumbles, potions, etc as you see fit, but only top watering. Sound good?

So you probably have 2 more days, maybe 3 until it gets watered.

Don't wussy out, watch the leaves. If they ain't wilting your good. Trust it.

Now if the plant goes yellow like a nitro def, then water it right away but only minimally and from the top. That may happen because the 2 week stall converting to sips may need 2 weeks to unconvert. Your roots may not be accustomed to the dryness that they should actually be at. No yellow, then 3 dry spots and and 2 in the lower greens.

 

[Azimuth]

Ok. Sounds like a mini flush. My experience when I was doing the wet/dry thing has been that the soil would take about 1/4 of the pot size in water so the 2 gallons is going to be much more than the soil will hold. Is this to ensure no dry pockets?

I also do droughting on my plants after week 6 and they go a full 10 days before I see wilting so it will be interesting to see how long it takes to get the meter readings you suggest.

 

[Gee64]

Ok. Sounds like a mini flush. My experience when I was doing the wet/dry thing has been that the soil would take about 1/4 of the pot size in water so the 2 gallons is going to be much more than the soil will hold. Is this to ensure no dry pockets?

It is, and it ensures calcium is homogenous. I can't emphasize enough that it must be gentle and it must be even. Then let the plant drink the reservoir dry and follow what the water stick tells you.

If you have a plastic dish scrubby, use that with soap to scour the probe really well before it's 1st use to get factory grease off the metal. Rinse it really well then start using it. Steel wool works good too.

I also do droughting on my plants after week 6 and they go a full 10 days before I see wilting so it will be interesting to see how long it takes to get the meter readings you suggest.

When you drought next time, use your water stick lots just to see what is going on and where, inside the pot. Some spots will register a 2, while others say 6.

For those using cloth pots, stab the water stick thru the sides of the pot at numerous places around the circumference, and at 3 or 4 different levels. When you think it's time to water, stab first. See if the meter says you need water.

Still water if that's your comfort zone, but excess water means inadequate oxygen. One replaces the other. So trust the stick, step outside your comfort zone, follow the brix.

More brix means you are photosynthesizing more. That's the goal.

Just because your plant is under a kick-ass light doesn't mean it's photosynthesizing properly. Correct photosynthesis and now your game went up a notch.

Trace elements and minerals are easy. The trick is correct Calcium, Phosphorus, Carbon, Oxygen, and healthy abundant microbes/fungii under that kick-ass light.

Correct Calcium and Phosphorus need to be in the soil from day 1. Then if you water properly Oxygen is good, and CO2 is free from the air, so carbon is good. Then the plant produces excess exudates, and microbes/fungii become abundant and healthy.

The higher the brix before flip, the bigger and better the flowering. You need good photosynthesis before stretch. Stretch is brutally demanding.

Remember to check the weather before a brix reading. If you are experiencing a storm, or one is looming, add a point or 2 to what the refractometer is telling you. If you are in a good weather high pressure stretch, your brix reading is true.

Plants sense pressure drops and relocate sugars underground when a storm is coming.

And read your seed description. If it says that it likes moister or drier conditions, use the stick to cater to that. What that really means is some plants require more oxygen than others or more calcium than others.

Calcium and water go hand in hand, so if water is wrong, so is calcium.

Water supplies hydrogen, calcium is a buffer, so if watering is wrong causing calcium to be incorrect, PH isn't optimal. You have flux in your pot.

The microlife is exerting too much effort trying to balance the soil instead of doing what the plant needs it to do.

Water creates either aerobic or anaerobic conditions. Microbes are aerobic, that's why they are called beneficial aerobic soil microbes. They like the sauna, not the pool.

See why Emilya is so draconian on good water practices?

I don't care what anyone says or thinks, there is no product that blends air and water better than coarse perlite.

Theres a tip for you all on the next batch of soil you build.

If you insist on a different aereator, at least try perlite so you can have a point of reference.

Don't blindly trust the internet. Don't trust me either, go see for yourself.

Just benchmark what the industry standard gives you first, and perlite is the industry standard. Learn to use it correctly, then try anything else you please after that.

As Keff has said so many times, organics is really easy if you get the basics correct.

Brix is the basics. Plants are dictated by DNA to build sugars.

They are solar powered water pumps that make sugar exhaust.

Microbes sequester that sugar exhaust. They like the sauna.

Help them.

If your doing everything correct and your plant still looks droopy, or isn't growing very fast, there's about an 85% chance your pot needs more warmth. Saunas are warm. Warmth takes standing water and puts it into the air.

Leaves get a slight mottling to them in cold soil.

Temperature sways PH. It's all tied together.

That's why PH pens show temp too.

 

[Gee64]

TMSC - Day 41 of Flower (yesterday)

RV1.

I've stopped the destruction, but damage done is damage done. Brix is 14 on RV1, and 16 on the mutant, but 10 on Ikky. Oddly enough Ikky looks the best.

Ikky.

Mutey's side branching is finally starting to elongate.

Ikky.

RV1.

 

[Gee64]

Day 25 (yesterday) in soil.

And now all 4 are topped.

Group shot all topped. almost ready for flower and nowhere to flower them.

 

[Gee64]

The Scruffians.

46 days in, 14 to go. Hang in there girls.

Ikky.

RV1.

RV1.

 

[Lerugged]

You could flower them outside now. Get that cheeky spring harvest.

 

[Lerugged]

I fear it might be too late for that. You could always just veg them outside for now if they won't flower

 

[StoneOtter]

TMSC - Day 41 of Flower (yesterday)

RV1.

I've stopped the destruction, but damage done is damage done. Brix is 14 on RV1, and 16 on the mutant, but 10 on Ikky. Oddly enough Ikky looks the best.

Ikky.

Mutey's side branching is finally starting to elongate.

Ikky.

RV1.

Your spears are getting nice and full Gee!

 

[Azimuth]

So when I do the 1x pot size mini-flush, any disadvantage to doing that with the microbe tea you suggested? My pot is 2 gallons so a 5 gallon bucket of tea diluted 1:2 means an aweful lot of wasted goodness. The vegetables aren't even in the ground yet though I suppose I could put any excess there.

Also, wouldn't I be better off leaving the reservoir as dry as possible after this flush to shorten the first cycle recovery time?

 

[Azimuth]

See why Emilya is so draconian on good water practices?

But even she converted over to SIPs to great effect. Don't know if she ever followed or measured brix levels though.

----

After we get through this reset process I'm going to want to explore the SIP pot structure with you, specifically the low level air chamber and whether or not that at least somewhat compensates for the the soil O2. Every plant I've grown in SIPs are much bigger and look healthier (at least through mid flower) than my non-SIPs.

But, that doesn't mean the brix levels are better as my current level 5 on the just flipped plant demonstrates. And, given my consistent bug issue, I'm interested in higher brix levles.

I'm really wondering if there's some adaptation to the SIP watering process that harnesses the advantages I see with my SIP buckets with the better photosynthesis cycle of a more typical pot structure.

So, let's say my plant drinks 1L of water every two days. I'm thinking that maybe only giving it that amount from the top every couple of days and letting whatever drips into the reservoir and gets sucked back up be the total amount given, rather than having what seems to be a week's worth of extra water stored in the soil (as evidenced by the week+ my droughting plants go before showing any wilt at all).

In other words, reduce the overall water bank that is stored in the soil to just what the plant will use in a day or two and eliminate both a full reservoir and the completely saturated soil surrounding it.

Seems to me like there's no downside to that since the plant is not availing itself to that extra water bank anyway and it seems like it is negatively affecting the photosynthesis cycle.

But maybe once the brix cycle starts to grow higher and higher the microbes can compensate for that extra water, and it's more a matter of getting things kicked off properly first?

It seems like the main two differences between my set-up and other organic SIP users that aren't having the issues I have are pot size (and perhaps its related relatively higher perched water table) and the fact that they top water occasionally and I almost never do.

 

[Gee64]

So when I do the 1x pot size mini-flush, any disadvantage to doing that with the microbe tea you suggested? My pot is 2 gallons so a 5 gallon bucket of tea diluted 1:2 means an aweful lot of wasted goodness. The vegetables aren't even in the ground yet though I suppose I could put any excess there.

Also, wouldn't I be better off leaving the reservoir as dry as possible after this flush to shorten the first cycle recovery time?

what plants at what stage do you have right now? any young ones?

 

[Azimuth]

what plants at what stage do you have right now? any young ones?

The main one we're focusing on was flipped to flower mode 2 days ago. I have a couple of other 1L vegging plants and one just starting its drought.

 

[Gee64]

The main one we're focusing on was flipped to flower mode 2 days ago. I have a couple of other 1L vegging plants and one just starting its drought.

Ok, for some reason I thought we were dealing with a 1 litre one. Do the full pot drench on the one in flower if you want to use that one, empty the res if you can, then add tea and drain the res again. Then start the top watering when the water stick says too.

 

[Azimuth]

I veg in 1L containers and then up-pot to a 2 gallon bucket about two weeks prior to flip.

 

[Gee64]

But even she converted over to SIPs to great effect. Don't know if she ever followed or measured brix levels though.

I'm not knocking sips here, Em understands watering.

----

After we get through this reset process I'm going to want to explore the SIP pot structure with you, specifically the low level air chamber and whether or not that at least somewhat compensates for the the soil O2. Every plant I've grown in SIPs are much bigger and look healthier (at least through mid flower) than my non-SIPs.

But, that doesn't mean the brix levels are better as my current level 5 on the just flipped plant demonstrates. And, given my consistent bug issue, I'm interested in higher brix levles.

So here's a tell. Not a tell-all, just a "in most cases" tell

SIP Club - Getting Hydro/Coco Results In A Soil Based Medium​

Thats a synthetic system statement.

I could say

"Cloth pots, proper watering, getting hydro/coco results in a living soil based medium and no bug spray involved"

and be correct. Apples and oranges.

What I mean by posting your title is that hydro/coco is for the most part synthetic, and it relies on very wet mediums.

As Bill states at least once a day..... "use full strength nutes and water to full runoff every day. " Thats a lot of wet soil. So if you use synthetics in a sip, you get a great product.Sips are a passive hydro system.

Not sure how Em did it.

The trick is to get it to work with LOS. Right now you aren't comparing apples to oranges, you are mixing apples and oranges. We are going to straighten that out.

LOS needs top watering and much drier soil and you like sips so lets fall back on how Rev does it. His mix is high brix, I've demonstrated that, and he uses Sips. So lets try it his way.

Fill the res via top watering. Bottom watering is oxymoronic for what LOS wants.

I'm really wondering if there's some adaptation to the SIP watering process that harnesses the advantages I see with my SIP buckets with the better photosynthesis cycle of a more typical pot structure.

Not sure what you mean but I'm interested for sure.

So, let's say my plant drinks 1L of water every two days. I'm thinking that maybe only giving it that amount from the top every couple of days and letting whatever drips into the reservoir and gets sucked back up be the total amount given, rather than having what seems to be a week's worth of extra water stored in the soil (as evidenced by the week+ my droughting plants go before showing any wilt at all).

Thats where I'm taking you with this one plant. The one in the 1 litre would be better, but the one in flower will do too. Or try 1 of each

In other words, reduce the overall water bank that is stored in the soil to just what the plant will use in a day or two and eliminate both a full reservoir and the completely saturated soil surrounding it.

Sort of.Reduce overall pot wetness to the green zone on the water stick. Not what you deem to be correct. Trust the stick.

Seems to me like there's no downside to that since the plant is not availing itself to that extra water bank anyway and it seems like it is negatively affecting the photosynthesis cycle.

Bigtime. It's strangling the plant.

But maybe once the brix cycle starts to grow higher and higher the microbes can compensate for that extra water, and it's more a matter of getting things kicked off properly first?

Nope, cut off O2 and brix will crash.

It seems like the main two differences between my set-up and other organic SIP users that aren't having the issues I have are pot size (and perhaps its related relatively higher perched water table)

maybe, but that will only sway things so far. A better state of bad is still bad. Follow the brix, it indicates overall photosynthesis.

and the fact that they top water occasionally and I almost never do.

Thats it. My hunch is your soil is better. It's hand crafted. What do you think I keep you around for!!??

Here's your self-addressed prestamped envelope... recipes remember...

Don't get me wrong, sips are fantastic. You are simply growing organics in a synthetic system without compensating. Just ignore the fill tube. Think of it as an air injection tube instead. Sips are actually very low on air. Better than hard pots, but a country mile away from cloth. Wanna compare air intake surface area? Whatever the surface area of a 10 gallon pot is, thats the size of my air chamber.

You can still use a sip conventionally if you like, but container size/shape and soil areation become critical. It's a lot of juggling to get around top watering.

Or go synthetic and never look back. Get bug spray tho.

In veg you need lots of nitro. Nitro requires lots of water. Once stretch is over the game changes.

Trust the stick, follow the brix.

 

[Gee64]

You could flower them outside now. Get that cheeky spring harvest.

Days are over 12 hours and growing, it's Spring up here.

I fear it might be too late for that. You could always just veg them outside for now if they won't flower

I think I will grow 1 outdoors, and try to contain 1 as a Mother. The other 2 I will try to slow down and flower out in about 4 weeks when the flower tent is free. While they are flowering I will start my Wild Lady and LC-18 seeds vegging. If they get too big I'll clone them again.