White Rhino Fem In 4-Way Scrog Under CMH 315W Gaslight Schedule

[LiberalThinker]

I have an air diffuser which keeps the plants gently moving, my issue is that with a scrog lots of smaller branches make it up which (hopefully) will have decent sized buds.
My friend suggested i put an extra net across lower down for that very reason... of course i ignored his advice lol

This is my first scrog, so I'm as thick as you are on this. I think the idea is to continually keep those branches evenly spaced. Because it's yours and my first time, we'll be doing lots of moving things until we are familiar with how this style of grow evolves and can be more efficient with our effort.

 

[jimbobdaz]

lol yep, always learning... as i`m a lot further along with my grow than you (week two of flower) feel free to check out my journal so you can avoid the same mistakes i made

 

[LiberalThinker]

As I mentioned earlier I would earlier, I did the first experiment around pH stability and came across my first issue. I pHed 10L water in a bucket to 5.5 and added more acid over time until it was stable at that figure for a few hours, then added a blue airstone to observe the effect of air on pH; within 2 hours it shot up to 7. I had anticipated the mineral nature of the stone might do this, so I presoaked it in acid solution to neutralise any alkalinity in it but it didn''t work. I did some reading around and this seems to be a common issue around mineral airstones messing up pH. I pondered on getting some silicone tubing-type airstones but chanced upon a post regarding just letting the water circulate and fall into the tank.

This made much sense to me, since the water's surface only needs to be in contact with the air to absorb oxygen and release carbon dioxide, etc. I already have a couple of 1500L/hr or 25L/min submersible pumps which I've added tubing and a T-piece on the end to throw the water sideways above the water level. I've mocked it up for you to see and the other one will be opposite. The actual experiment to check pH with it will be done in the bucket. The combined turnover rate should be 50L/min in 50 - 60L water, so all the tank water should be exposed to air once a minute.

Assuming the effect on pH is not large, I will do this setup. Another plus is that the pumps can do triple duty: emptying during water changes and also using one as a top feed into the pot until the roots drop into the solution.

 

[Lowrider72]

Goodluck with the grow Yellowbelly.
Have you tried Gaslight before?
It works, no doubt, in veg but the hokey flowering part caused a few hermies for people trying it a few years back with Cannabis. Just beware thats all.
Be cool to see them belt out under CMH.
PH, I dunno. I handwater...

 

[West Hippie]

I’m running a 20 gallon ,( 80 L ) reservoir. I run no air to the reservoir just a 24/7 circulation pump (eco185) and a (eco250) for mixing! The ph is very easy to adjust up or down with my veg nutrients. I use Advanced Nutrients for flower ph Perfect, if you try to change the ph it would go all over the place then work its way back to 5.5 ! I have air in the flood & drain trays feeding the roots air !

 

[LiberalThinker]

Goodluck with the grow Yellowbelly.
Have you tried Gaslight before?
It works, no doubt, in veg but the hokey flowering part caused a few hermies for people trying it a few years back with Cannabis. Just beware thats all.
Be cool to see them belt out under CMH.
PH, I dunno. I handwater...

All this I'm doing is first time for me, so plenty of room for errors. It's under cmh now at 50% power; about 165w.

I'm not doing the dropping down to 9 hour night part of the gaslight flowering schedule; it will be 12 hours all the way, so I'll just be taking out that hour interruption when I decide to flower.

Here it is now under CMH. Noticeably perked up after a day from T5's:

 

[LiberalThinker]

 

[Lowrider72]

Good start mate. Hope you enjoy the cmh. Grow well.

 

[LiberalThinker]

Good start mate. Hope you enjoy the cmh. Grow well.

Thanks. It seems quite happy under 50% power output, so that's saving me a bit, I like the reflector, Secret Jardin for cmh, it's very light. This is its home at the moment. It's not set up properly yet. I'm putting white plastic sheet on the walls, which you see not stuck up properly yet in the back and the high tech gemination setup.

 

[No Pain]

Hey there , just cruising by and checking things out as well to offer my opinion .

Thought I'd start recording what I'm doing.

Equipment:

T5's (germination), HPS and 315w CMH. 70L DWC with the plant in a Root Riot cube and Hydroton. Nutes are GH Flora Trio with seaweed extract and silica additives. pH down is nitric acid for veg and phosphoric acid for flower. I don't use pH up. I'm using bacterial and mychorrizal additives. 4 x 4 x 72 tent but the scrog space will be 1 metre square.

Method:

I treat the water with ascorbic acid for dechlorination, add silica, then drop the pH to about 5 with nitric acid for veg then add the nutes. The initial pH will be about 5.5, which is my target and recommended by GHS for WR. I let the pH ride up to 6ish during the grow before bringing it back down again. I'll spray once a week with an Epsom, MKP, calcium EDTA mix. I will measure ppm's and top up with water if it's too high and redo the tank when ppm drops 25%. I shall use a citric acid/potassium carbonate buffer to stabilise pH.

Initially, for the first couple of weeks, the plant was on an 18/6 but have decided to use the Gaslight schedule, which is a 12/12 with a one hour light interruption in the middle of the plant's night. I'm currently just hand watering until the 4-way branching is established and then it will go into the DWC with the scrog set up. These are the first pictures:

At 7 days:

At 17 days:



At 20 days I've topped it. I forgot to take a picture before this was done. There was two more sets above the cut:

It's been under 250w Philips HPS but from tomorrow should start under the CMH. When the plant is under the light the side of the pot and top is covered with light proof plastic so the roots can spread to the edge and keep the humidity high in the pot.

Im sure you already know that reverse osmosis water is best for hydro for more than on reason ..one of the mains is it virtually has no ppm's so you know exactly whats in it because you put it there. I come from the school of though that the less additive's you have to put in the better off you are . You really don't have to add anything to dechlorinate your water ,all you have to do is let it sit out for a day or so before use .

I have only used silca once and generally its added late in grow and some brands will cause your ph to shoot up and are not very stable . Also new stuff regarding silica , they are starting to do studies and are leaning towards heavy silica use on our plants can cause health issues for us when smoked because the silica builds in the plant tissues as it is a weight enhancer.

In regards to mixing nutes and adjusting ph . I always recommend that you mix your nutrient first and then check and adjust your ph as any nutrients worth their salt are going to drop the ph of your water. I have used your choice of nutrients and cannot say that I have ever had any issues with them other than salt build up on my system as well as on the containers . So far the only nutrients that I have come across that do not build up are the ones I use now made by Current culture …. now there may be others out there as I have only used GH,ADVANCED,CURRENT CULTURE.

If you do decide to go with RO water be sure to get a cal/mag supplement and always add it to your water first.


I have heard about the gas light schedule and my first thought is its not even close to natural and the shift in the lighting schedule as mentioned I believe by Lowrider can cause the plant to turn into a hermaphrodite. I have seen light leaks do this and its no where near what's going on when gas lighting .

when you top off regardless of whether its nute solution or plain water ..ph it first to aid in regulating the ph in your system is high or low , ph the solution to be added to a ph that will aid in bringing your system to the ph you are looking for . Never add ph up or down directly to your reservoir always dilute it in a solution and then add ..also when adjusting try to stay away from adjusting the solution more than .5 in either direction as these things can cause their own issues.

Yes, I've read DWCing too early, before the roots are abundant and mature enough, seems to be an important cause of problems later. They probably need more air than water in the earliest stages. Just a guess. I want a high yielding plant, so as big and dense a root system as possible seems sensible.

I put mine in my dwc system 2 weeks after germination and keep the water level just below the root zone . You will not harm them just make sure that its a week nutrient solution …. the strength will vary as per the Dissolved oxygen availability in the system . A bas line would be 150ppm for your average system , In mine it would be more like 50ppm I know that 50 ppm doesn't sound like much but when your MATURE plants start to burn anywhere near 600ppm and your average system might not show those signs until 1600ppm its really not a small amount . That runs parallel to way ro water is recommended.

You are on the right track in regards to achieving a high yielding plant because you already focused on the root zone . When it comes to the root zone its quite simple... first the longer you veg the bigger the root system will become and I have read but never tested the fact as I had need , that your root growth occurs during lights out ,so you may want to rethink the gaslighting .
second is disolved oxygen ..you need it and have to have it … ways to increase it is volume of air another is solution temp lastly if it applies circulation. Now you can have to much air and to much circulation in hydro . I will address that below.

As I mentioned earlier I would earlier, I did the first experiment around pH stability and came across my first issue. I pHed 10L water in a bucket to 5.5 and added more acid over time until it was stable at that figure for a few hours, then added a blue airstone to observe the effect of air on pH; within 2 hours it shot up to 7. I had anticipated the mineral nature of the stone might do this, so I presoaked it in acid solution to neutralise any alkalinity in it but it didn''t work. I did some reading around and this seems to be a common issue around mineral airstones messing up pH. I pondered on getting some silicone tubing-type airstones but chanced upon a post regarding just letting the water circulate and fall into the tank.

This made much sense to me, since the water's surface only needs to be in contact with the air to absorb oxygen and release carbon dioxide, etc. I already have a couple of 1500L/hr or 25L/min submersible pumps which I've added tubing and a T-piece on the end to throw the water sideways above the water level. I've mocked it up for you to see and the other one will be opposite. The actual experiment to check pH with it will be done in the bucket. The combined turnover rate should be 50L/min in 50 - 60L water, so all the tank water should be exposed to air once a minute.

Assuming the effect on pH is not large, I will do this setup. Another plus is that the pumps can do triple duty: emptying during water changes and also using one as a top feed into the pot until the roots drop into the solution.

Again you are on the right track to success focusing on what you need to do to oxiginate and regulate your solution or the place your roots like to call home.
First lets talk airstones ..now if by blue you mean one like an eco plus airstone .. I personally have never had one affect my ph . So it could be something else and as I mention above to much air and or circulation can be a bad thing. Let me explain . When you overpower the solution with air bubbles(not all are created equal) or circulation that agitates the solution it can become unstable and nutrients and or additives can and will fall out of the solution floating around in concentrated clumps whether you can see them or not In your case lets take Silca say it falls out of soltion and is no longer bound to the other elements ...its known to raise ph levels so it could be the culprit . My suggestion would be to take the stone and put in in a glass of pure water that you have ph'd and let sit in it and go back the next day and check the ph of the water . I feel that you will most likely find that it hasn't really changed .

no lets talk bubbles and dissolved oxygen … not all air bubbles are created equal ...the finer the bubble the easier it is for disolved oxygen to enter the solution as will as break the surface tension of the water . I have used lines injecting into a recirculating solution , air stones and rings that I made myself ( in use now). so far my favorite are the ones I have made as they are very efficient for my system .
here is the thing the greater the dissolved oxygen content (not the amount of bubbles, as all bubbles are Not created Equal) the lower your solution strength needs to be and the healthier and less likely you are to have root issues .

So look at the size of your system ...if its going tobe a tub grow meaning the tub in the picture is your bucket and reservoir all wrapped into one. I would ask you to look at several things especially since you want to scrog.

first if still interested in using some type of bubbler look at the volume of water you want to maintain and put pen to paper on how much air you feel you need .... to give you a baseline my system has a volume of 50 gallons of solution (6 plants) and im using a et120 airpump it has a max flow rate of 4.24 cubic feet per minute at .10bar ...with that amount of air passing through my system through the mirobubbling diffusers that I built I need about 1/3 of the solution strength at any given stage of growth that is recommended for a baseline system and the solution is stable with the nutrient line that I use .

Second I can tell you that it will become a pain to maintenance the tub later on in the plants life especially if the tub is filled with roots and near impossible to maintenance when that plant is under a scrog net.


I also did notice that you switch from hydroton to rockwool after your mishap. when you put the plant in your system make sure the water level is at least 1/4 below the line of the rockwool ...otherwise the rockwool will continually soak up solution and cause you issues if not kill your plant .


well hope it helps .

 

[LiberalThinker]

Hey there , just cruising by and checking things out as well to offer my opinion .




Im sure you already know that reverse osmosis water is best for hydro for more than on reason ..one of the mains is it virtually has no ppm's so you know exactly whats in it because you put it there. I come from the school of though that the less additive's you have to put in the better off you are . You really don't have to add anything to dechlorinate your water ,all you have to do is let it sit out for a day or so before use .

I have only used silca once and generally its added late in grow and some brands will cause your ph to shoot up and are not very stable . Also new stuff regarding silica , they are starting to do studies and are leaning towards heavy silica use on our plants can cause health issues for us when smoked because the silica builds in the plant tissues as it is a weight enhancer.

In regards to mixing nutes and adjusting ph . I always recommend that you mix your nutrient first and then check and adjust your ph as any nutrients worth their salt are going to drop the ph of your water. I have used your choice of nutrients and cannot say that I have ever had any issues with them other than salt build up on my system as well as on the containers . So far the only nutrients that I have come across that do not build up are the ones I use now made by Current culture …. now there may be others out there as I have only used GH,ADVANCED,CURRENT CULTURE.

If you do decide to go with RO water be sure to get a cal/mag supplement and always add it to your water first.


I have heard about the gas light schedule and my first thought is its not even close to natural and the shift in the lighting schedule as mentioned I believe by Lowrider can cause the plant to turn into a hermaphrodite. I have seen light leaks do this and its no where near what's going on when gas lighting .

when you top off regardless of whether its nute solution or plain water ..ph it first to aid in regulating the ph in your system is high or low , ph the solution to be added to a ph that will aid in bringing your system to the ph you are looking for . Never add ph up or down directly to your reservoir always dilute it in a solution and then add ..also when adjusting try to stay away from adjusting the solution more than .5 in either direction as these things can cause their own issues.



I put mine in my dwc system 2 weeks after germination and keep the water level just below the root zone . You will not harm them just make sure that its a week nutrient solution …. the strength will vary as per the Dissolved oxygen availability in the system . A bas line would be 150ppm for your average system , In mine it would be more like 50ppm I know that 50 ppm doesn't sound like much but when your MATURE plants start to burn anywhere near 600ppm and your average system might not show those signs until 1600ppm its really not a small amount . That runs parallel to way ro water is recommended.

You are on the right track in regards to achieving a high yielding plant because you already focused on the root zone . When it comes to the root zone its quite simple... first the longer you veg the bigger the root system will become and I have read but never tested the fact as I had need , that your root growth occurs during lights out ,so you may want to rethink the gaslighting .
second is disolved oxygen ..you need it and have to have it … ways to increase it is volume of air another is solution temp lastly if it applies circulation. Now you can have to much air and to much circulation in hydro . I will address that below.


Again you are on the right track to success focusing on what you need to do to oxiginate and regulate your solution or the place your roots like to call home.
First lets talk airstones ..now if by blue you mean one like an eco plus airstone .. I personally have never had one affect my ph . So it could be something else and as I mention above to much air and or circulation can be a bad thing. Let me explain . When you overpower the solution with air bubbles(not all are created equal) or circulation that agitates the solution it can become unstable and nutrients and or additives can and will fall out of the solution floating around in concentrated clumps whether you can see them or not In your case lets take Silca say it falls out of soltion and is no longer bound to the other elements ...its known to raise ph levels so it could be the culprit . My suggestion would be to take the stone and put in in a glass of pure water that you have ph'd and let sit in it and go back the next day and check the ph of the water . I feel that you will most likely find that it hasn't really changed .

no lets talk bubbles and dissolved oxygen … not all air bubbles are created equal ...the finer the bubble the easier it is for disolved oxygen to enter the solution as will as break the surface tension of the water . I have used lines injecting into a recirculating solution , air stones and rings that I made myself ( in use now). so far my favorite are the ones I have made as they are very efficient for my system .
here is the thing the greater the dissolved oxygen content (not the amount of bubbles, as all bubbles are Not created Equal) the lower your solution strength needs to be and the healthier and less likely you are to have root issues .

So look at the size of your system ...if its going tobe a tub grow meaning the tub in the picture is your bucket and reservoir all wrapped into one. I would ask you to look at several things especially since you want to scrog.

first if still interested in using some type of bubbler look at the volume of water you want to maintain and put pen to paper on how much air you feel you need .... to give you a baseline my system has a volume of 50 gallons of solution (6 plants) and im using a et120 airpump it has a max flow rate of 4.24 cubic feet per minute at .10bar ...with that amount of air passing through my system through the mirobubbling diffusers that I built I need about 1/3 of the solution strength at any given stage of growth that is recommended for a baseline system and the solution is stable with the nutrient line that I use .

Second I can tell you that it will become a pain to maintenance the tub later on in the plants life especially if the tub is filled with roots and near impossible to maintenance when that plant is under a scrog net.


I also did notice that you switch from hydroton to rockwool after your mishap. when you put the plant in your system make sure the water level is at least 1/4 below the line of the rockwool ...otherwise the rockwool will continually soak up solution and cause you issues if not kill your plant .


well hope it helps .

Thanks for your comments and I'll think about them and maybe address some of them later. I'll comment on one now regarding the water. I'm pHing the water to target, after adding silica, with nitric acid, which reacts with the calcium ions to form calcium nitrate. That calcium has then become part of the nute count. Only very minor down adjustments are needed after adding the GH nutrients.I like adding the bulk of the acid first because the solution is already in equilibrium when the nutes are added and it is less likely to react with the GH components.

 

[No Pain]

Thanks for your comments and I'll think about them and maybe address some of them later.

You are more than welcome .

some words I live my ….I will find succsess through my failures as without failure there is no success and asking for help is not synonymous with weakness.

 

[LiberalThinker]

Topped my plant today. Before and after:

Bottom single leaves are yellowing quite a lot, so I've raised the pH up to 6.2 from 5.5ish. I stopped watering the rockwool and just dip the pebbles in the bottom third solution when needed. I felt it was looking over-watered as they were a bit wrinkly on the single leaves. It's better now.

 

[No Pain]

they are yellowing due to lack of nourishment . you should put her in nutrient solution . I do not know how far the rock wool goes down in your net cup as compared to the root sytsem but keep the solution level below the rockwool also did you buffer the rockwool prior to putting it in the cup ?

 

[LiberalThinker]

they are yellowing due to lack of nourishment . you should put her in nutrient solution . I do not know how far the rock wool goes down in your net cup as compared to the root sytsem but keep the solution level below the rockwool also did you buffer the rockwool prior to putting it in the cup ?

That's obvious mate and it's not due to no nourishment being available. it's down to an inability to get it because of an environmental issue, like pH being too low... which has been addressed. Yes, rockwool was neutralised and yes the solution level is below it when applied.

Bear in mind, I'm just really journalling here and not specifically asking for advice on issues I encounter on the way. I don't mind you commenting though, as you are doing. I have dropped the silica for now, per your earlier comment, in case it's causing unseen precipitation issues with other compounds... it's strong stuff.

 

[No Pain]

That's obvious mate and it's not due to no nourishment being available. it's down to an inability to get it because of an environmental issue, like pH being too low... which has been addressed. Yes, rockwool was neutralised and yes the solution level is below it when applied.

Bear in mind, I'm just really journalling here and not specifically asking for advice on issues I encounter on the way. I don't mind you commenting though, as you are doing. I have dropped the silica for now, per your earlier comment, in case it's causing unseen precipitation issues with other compounds... it's strong stuff.

look I know you aren't & didn't ask for advice on issues . If you want to learn without any input ,why should I or anyone else have an issue with that?
I know the obvious in yellowing is that A its not feeding or B its not getting enough . I mentioned what I did because the hydroton (clay pebbles) will not hold enough food for her by simply dipping or hand watering ..there is a stage where they need constant access to food . I asked about the rockwool because you didn't state that you had buffered it and if it wasn't that can cause issues of its own . Yes ph can definitely be a factor in it not feeding correctly however nitrogen is pretty much available the entire scale and that's another reason I stated what I did .

the biggest thing about precicipation issues that I tend to look at is that to much agitation of a hydroponic solution can cause all elements that have been added to fall out (precipitate ) out of the solution .
hope removing the silica has helped you .

 

[LiberalThinker]

look I know you aren't & didn't ask for advice on issues . If you want to learn without any input ,why should I or anyone else have an issue with that?
I know the obvious in yellowing is that A its not feeding or B its not getting enough . I mentioned what I did because the hydroton (clay pebbles) will not hold enough food for her by simply dipping or hand watering ..there is a stage where they need constant access to food . I asked about the rockwool because you didn't state that you had buffered it and if it wasn't that can cause issues of its own . Yes ph can definitely be a factor in it not feeding correctly however nitrogen is pretty much available the entire scale and that's another reason I stated what I did .

the biggest thing about precicipation issues that I tend to look at is that to much agitation of a hydroponic solution can cause all elements that have been added to fall out (precipitate ) out of the solution .
hope removing the silica has helped you .

I'm going to sort out the plant to be put in the system proper shortly. I wanted to get the 4 main branches going first before putting it in but I think it needs it now.

Two more current pictures:

The first picture gives a closer representation of the lower leaf colour. Second picture shows the new branching starting. I upped the light power to 80% and it's interesting to note that the pictures look warmer and yellower than the earlier photos on lower power. The main stem is now strong and woody. I've been bending it sideways a little every day.

 

[LiberalThinker]

Comments on the suggestion by @Lowrider72 that this lighting schedule may cause hermies and @No Pain comment about it be being unnatural:

Gaslight is unnatural: An 18/6 schedule is a five hour deviation from what occurs naturally. The gaslight routine is only a 1 hour deviation. Where cannabis evolved, the photoperiod is 13-14 hours for veg and 12 for flower triggering

Causing hermies: In the 90's, I learned that the way to create hermies for cross-female breeding was to put the plant on 9 hours of light and it seems logical from this, if you follow the flowering schedule for the gaslight schedule, it would seem hermies are quite possible. I will not be following this part of the schedule... 12 hours only all the way through flowering.

Edit: Just noticed Lowrider72 did actually say it was the "hokey" flowering part that caused hermies.

 

[LiberalThinker]

In the last week the condition of the leaf sets deteriorated. The yellow leaves stayed erect but the upper green ones drooped and dried up. Couldn't figure out if it was over or under watered.

I was ready to chuck in the towel but noticed roots coming out of the bottom and they looked healthy, so I got it in the tank and had the air balls splashing the bottom of the pot. They are like this now:

Knowing that the plant is recovering OK I decided to remove the ailing leaves for it to focus on new growth and now looks like this:

It's on Flora Trio at the moment and I'm swapping to Growth Technology Ionic Hydro Grow when it comes. I think I'm going to use it all through the grow and flower. I want simple.

 

[LiberalThinker]

Might change direction and mainline if the lower set don't speed up. I'm thinking I should have kept the 2nd and 3rd nodes for 4-way scrogging and not 1st and 2nd. It's in good condition now though. Light is set to 80% and 12 inches up (vertical bulb).