39% extraction yield RSO

[Lab Rat]

You probably converted all your THC to CBN, makes good daytime medicine as its non-drowsy, also just CBD lets you take less. If you leave it in storage for a few months a small bit of THC will become available again but it will never have a big head high.

Anyone have correct temps and length of time for an oil bath decarb? It would make my life so much easier.

Uh, I'm kinda getting tired of posting this chart.

With double boilers there's energy loss so the inner liquid never gets as hot as the outer one. I've done double boilers with water and the inside temp is around 8-12 degrees lower than the outer temp. So you got an outside water temp of 212 and an inside temp of around 200 degrees.

I would imagine with oil its the same; considering that the heating process its not immediate; I would take the oil up to 180 degrees (170 inner). When it hits 170, start your timer and raise your temp to 260 (250 inner). Giving it a few minutes for temperature rise I would do 30 minutes instead of 27 and just completely remove from heat.

Motoco has a pretty good guide on double oil boiler decarb on the main sticky thread.

 

[Jack Dabs]

Thanks Lab Rat, I will do that for 30 mins max this time, I appreciate the advice and think this may be the best way to do it rather than decarb in the oven first.

I understand the chart as in just decarbing but considering heat is applied during both extracting and evaporation I was battling to understand how decarbing the oil would be done considering the previous heat applied to the oil. I have seen Motoco's thread but again with his method there is no heat applied in the extraction process and was wondering how significant this heat is in the decarb process?

Many thanks for your advice it is appreciated.

 

[Mariamlu]

Uh, I'm kinda getting tired of posting this chart.

I had a good laugh on that! This chart is my friend too. I don't mind seeing it again.
It gets never enough of repeating important facts. I read once from motoco's post the idea that "people get frustrated and smash oil's residue on their teeth and get high unwillingly". Well, I did not get frustrated, so it was not about me. I simply did not know, what else to do with very thin layer, which did not stick the gum. Only long time later I read (motoco's post again)a suggestion, that you can carefully remove this residual layer with your spatula (and use it next time). I do it now every time. Now I see, how different amount remains on the finger every time. The oil does not absorb in the teeth as it does on the gum. From teeth it only can go to stomach.

 

[Lab Rat]

Well I'm very careful about heat, no rice cookers, no gentle heating elements or anything else without a thermostat. Regardless of how much heat you use, a liquid under normal atmosphere will not heat past its boiling point. You will not find water at more than 212*F or ethanol at more than 169*F.

High heat will create solids so I stay at a temperature slightly higher than the ethanol boiling point.

A lot of people recommend boiling until there are no longer any bubbles; I boil until there no longer is any ethanol which is the whole idea. How do you see that, when your alcohol oil mix starts rising past 169*F it means the ethanol is gone.

Science, its true whether you believe in it or not.

 

[Jack Dabs]

I had a good laugh on that! This chart is my friend too. I don't mind seeing it again.
It gets never enough of repeating important facts. I read once from motoco's post the idea that "people get frustrated and smash oil's residue on their teeth and get high unwillingly". Well, I did not get frustrated, so it was not about me. I simply did not know, what else to do with very thin layer, which did not stick the gum. Only long time later I read (motoco's post again)a suggestion, that you can carefully remove this residual layer with your spatula (and use it next time). I do it now every time. Now I see, how different amount remains on the finger every time. The oil does not absorb in the teeth as it does on the gum. From teeth it only can go to stomach.

Haha yes Miriamlu, I have had some trouble with the old tacking before too> got the hang of it eventually, still a bit of a gamble as to whether I get stoned or not to some extent but most of the time I barely notice it and other times i get whacked for about 30 mins and then its gone. I have my suspicions that all we are really doing is creating a super slow release method of absorbtion. I have been on strong morphine patches lately and compared to other opiates you hardly notice its there it just helps with pain. Even potentiating it with paracetamol and codeine just creates a different opiate buzz but you never quite feel the morphine as much as you would think. Taking morphine orally is a different story, the only difference is the slow release.

Thats why I have been trying to figure out a way to make a trans dermal patch for RSO. I may be wrong but I would love to see some hard scientific evidence that tacking does what everyone says it does. If its the best way to take the medicine (that we know of so far) then thats the way i will take it until someone else comes along with an even more effective method of delivery so long as it can be verified.

 

[Jack Dabs]

Well I'm very careful about heat, no rice cookers, no gentle heating elements or anything else without a thermostat. Regardless of how much heat you use, a liquid under normal atmosphere will not heat past its boiling point. You will not find water at more than 212*F or ethanol at more than 169*F.

High heat will create solids so I stay at a temperature slightly higher than the ethanol boiling point.

A lot of people recommend boiling until there are no longer any bubbles; I boil until there no longer is any ethanol which is the whole idea. How do you see that, when your alcohol oil mix starts rising past 169*F it means the ethanol is gone.

Science, its true whether you believe in it or not.

Thank you for that concise answer Lab rat, appreciate your help. I have an induction hob but unfortunately it does not have exact temp settings so i need to keep watching it to make sure i can keep it at the right temp, bit of a bastard to do if i have plastic covering and an ice bowl so will have to do a trial run with some iso on its own to see where the sweet spot is.

As for knowing when the alcohol has been completely evaporated, well that seems like an artform to me that i havent yet mastered. Sorry for being so picky on the details but i have a brother recovering from cancer in a lot of pain and i am suffering chronic nerve pain too which is near unbearable. I have already messed up one lot of oil which was a whole ounce and only have a few ounces left. My bro has hormone problems as a result of his cancer and his body is behaving strangely and giving him loads of hassles, its going to be interesting to document his recovery because every time we are weed rich and dosing him up his condition improves, now we on a mission to get him healthy. Been doing a lot of research into aromatherapy combined with cannabis for the terpene value considering terpenes are destroyed in the oil making process it makes sense to me to supplement the oil regime by inhaling the same terpenes that were originally present in the bud.

Thanks again to all here especially Lab Rat for all your efforts in contributing to this amazing thread and sharing with us this method.

 

[Mariamlu]

Jack, I am sorry for you and your brother. I hope you will cure both of you, good luck to you in that!
I brought myself a digital laser thermometer. Mine is exact and cost ca 25 eur. It is ever so easy with it to see, when the temperature starts to increase above alcohol boiling temperature, then there is no alcohol left.
Where would you put RSO patch, on the skin? Can skin forward THC/CBD to organs successfully? I understand oil dissolving in saliva or other liquids in the body. It has to dissolve in some liquid. It dissolves best in alcohol. Sativex is ethanol based spray, used in mouth.

 

[Lab Rat]

It can absorb through the skin, maybe not as much as taken orally but I wear gloves to avoid an accidental skin contact high. Remember there are people curing melanomas by adding directly to the skin.

Like all trial and error I got high several times before I finished the process and it wasn't fun, I still had stuff to do. No CBD high though but I was using a high THC strain (all I could find in the black market).

Ethanol doesn't taste very well and if you try dissolving it in whisky or rum it will separate like adding oil to water. I've used olive oil or even better coconut oil. If the coconut flavor is not enough you can get cinnamon flavor concentrate at a cooking supply place; the spiciness goes well with the oil.

Just harder to tack if its too runny.

 

[Jack Dabs]

Jack, I am sorry for you and your brother. I hope you will cure both of you, good luck to you in that!
I brought myself a digital laser thermometer. Mine is exact and cost ca 25 eur. It is ever so easy with it to see, when the temperature starts to increase above alcohol boiling temperature, then there is no alcohol left.
Where would you put RSO patch, on the skin? Can skin forward THC/CBD to organs successfully? I understand oil dissolving in saliva or other liquids in the body. It has to dissolve in some liquid. It dissolves best in alcohol. Sativex is ethanol based spray, used in mouth.

Thanks Miriamlu, I really appreciate it and we are both hell bent on getting healthy again. He is my personal mission to get fixed up with the oil. I did buy one of those infared thermometer and its great. My only concern is that my hob doesnt have temperature setting so I need to do a test run to find out which setting is correct so that I dont have to disturb the extraction process by checking all the time. I wasnt sure if alcohol would heat faster than water so I will do a test run with some iso.

Lab rat just summed it up but yes the skin can absorb a lot more than most people realise and is a very effective method. I have made myself some back cream using just some herb and coconut oil and it definitely provides some relief. Trans dermal absorbtion has been used for 1000's of years and many believe for isolated problems its better because the medicine can get to where it needs to be faster. I have been looking into buying blank patches like they use for morphine but no luck yet. I think the rso may be a little too thick and not conducive to effective absorbsion but I am keen to try crude methods with oil and try different consistencies too> I will let you know how the experiment goes just need to make some oil first. I am not trying to steer away from the tacking method, just looking for slow release cannabis for lasting pain relief, the same as i am trying some aromatherapy soon (waiting for diffuser) with very specific essential oils that are found in cannabis. For example caryophellene is a predominant terpene in certain strains and it has it's own influences. Copaiba oil contains up to 55% of caryophellene> Obviously there are many terpenes that have an active role in cannabis, but there are many oils with exactly te same terpenes as cannabis. Sorry getting off topic but I do find it interesting if we can replace some of what we take out.

I do actually have one quick question: I have a metal bowl that fits like a glove over the pot i will be using. I am assuming in this case that i dont need the plastic if it is already airtight?

 

[Lab Rat]

I think its best if you have the plastic membrane; "like a glove" and "airtight" are not the same thing. And you are worried about leaks, explosions and smell so you wanna make sure it all condensates.

Induction is fairly accurate and an even temperature so you should be able to measure precisely what temperature, LOW, MEDIUM LOW, MEDIUM is actually outputting. Do it before with some veggie oil and your thermometer.

Or just buy a NuWave, I'm in Costa Rica so I had to pay shipping + international shipping + customs fees, etc. Good thing I bought most of the induction pots here; those things are heavy.

 

[CajunCelt]

Not to be the turd in the punchbowl, but cannabinoids absorption transdermally is not a new subject. It's been tested & analyzed many times for awhile now.
In short, cannabinoids bioavailability by a transdermal method is pretty awful due to the non polar props of cannabis.
You're call of course...

 

[Jack Dabs]

Thanks Lab rat I wiill definitely use the plastic then and heed you other advice, really appreciate it. CajunCelt, not at all it's all just shared knowledge. I will google it and i was just at the start of my research into it. All I know is that my cream definitely helps so perhaps coconut oil does improve absorbsion. It may be sucky but it does seem to absorb to some extent. For now I am finding out all I can about terpenes and aromatherapy.

I am also researching naturally decarbed oil which I have made in a tincture form which has been sitting for about 60 days so far. I will start testing it next month, 90-110 days seems to be the ''given'' time for it to decarb to an acceptable level. I will take a sample each week and am happy to report my findings here. My main objective is functional lasting pain relief so if it helps with that I am happy, adding it to the regular regime can only be a good thing.

Also interestingly my brother gets more relief from a tincture that i made (decarbed) with minute amounts of essential oils, than he does from tacking. I think I added, lemongrass (myrcene heavy), orange (limonene or linalool - cant remember) and one other pinene heavy oil. I put one drop of each in some alcohol and then added a couple drops of the diluted mixture into the tincture. It was a whacky stoner experiment that seems to be working for him. The tacking oil was made from the same herb.We started with just the tacking and no relief, tried the tincture and he had quite a bit of relief but he got through it quickly, then he ran out and went back to the tacking oil. He was in serious pain so I gave him my tincture and again he noticeda massive difference, then he started using both and says that provides relief better than the strong painkillers he is on. The pain is still there but seeing the difference in him is undeniable. Been following other forums with some very detailed info on the subject with some lab testing to back it up.Trouble of course is it doesnt make that much and that's why we are on this thread. A lot of the medicine is wasted. I do think we are entering an era where people are playing around with adding terpenes a lot more, hell there are even companies that sell vials of ''supposed'' safe terpenes. Essential oils can be quite dangerous if not treated with respect so I wouldnt trust that just yet.

 

[Lab Rat]

1 word; reproducibility. If you're interested in curing yourself and not just getting high you're making too many assumptions. I too have tried different decarb profiles with me as daytime and nighttime medicines, looking for what works best in my particular case but once I've found something that works I can make it again.

Your brother has cancer and you have pain, stop beating around the bush with these natural decarbs. You've got 90-110 days to see if something works? What if it doesn't? My methods exist just because the regular cold wash methods yielded too little for my needs but if I had access to lots of material I would just do that instead.

Seems like you are trying to re-invent the wheel, there are several methods that work. Choose 1 and do it.

 

[Jack Dabs]

I have chosen one method and have been doing it consistently. Been making RSO with a cold wash regularly. That is the base and am here because of exactly what you mentioned not enough material to keep all the people who I am making it for in regular supply. if it were just me it would be easy.

Having said that neuropathic pain is a bitch and often does not subside even using high quantities of rso. Sometimes it makes it worse especially when you high. can tell you the only thing worse to me than a bad episode of pain, is being in that pain stoned. It amplifies it and makes you obssess about it. Like strains some will work better for you than others.I still need to find my functional method. I come from a digital marketing background and I like to do split testing, ie you have your base, then you try and make it better, if it is keep that one and test again, otherwise retain the original and try something new.

For instance, for some reason I have found that every auto i have ever made rso from provides more relief than anything else. It gives me my life back and i believe that ruderallis plays a big part in that hence my current auto grow which is coming to an end (flushing stage atm). Perhaps it's specific to neuropathic pain but again I find it relevant and if my knowledge can help someone else I am happy. I dont believe we are neccessarily going to hit critical mass anytime soon even with all the anecdotal evidence suggesting rso kills cancer. We need the world to realise that this plant can change EVERYTHING and when you see how clogged up the pain clinics are and the real danger of drug addiction an social problems that arise from chronic pain it's sick that people are suffering things that should be treatable in this day and age. Pain to me is a big shift in mentality. Using cannabis is a sticky point for some but its eiser to argue someone who is in chronic pain. What you taking for it aaah morphine, wouldnt you rather use pot? Yeah now that you think about it, it's gotta be safer than morphine and I have heard its effective, let me give it a go because this pain is unberable. Thats how we will reach critical mass, when everyone knows someone personally who is treating themselves with cannabis for their condition, not just the hush, we using it to treat his/her cancer. When it replaces medicine cabinets, thats when we have acheived critical mass and the laws will have to change as people's perspectives change. take nothing away from cancer sufferers and I would much rather be where i am than where they are but my point is how many people have to suffer cancer before this medicine becomes the first port of call when treating conditions? We could get there faster if everyone with niggling health problems treated themselves with cannabis and unashamedly spread the word.My opinion anyway.

I didnt just make the natural decarb meds just randomly. Many hours of research went into making that decision. I dont see how it cant work with everything that you want in the medicine. Making it has not stopped me from daily ingestion of RSO. Neither has any of the tinctures i have made, only difference is the tincture is more effective for my pain but i get through them quickly. So maybe the answer for me in future is one quick wash for naturally decarbed tincture and then the heat extraction method for getting everything out of the bud used. As an example. For my brother, well the tincture helps his pain more but i think it's important that he stays on the rso and anything else added is just a supplement.

I understand your point and maybe my rantings here belong on another thread but I am trying to treat a complicated pain condition. If rso just worked believe me I would stick to it. I need to experiment because I am generally a very functional person and need to find a way out of this hole so that I can have my life back. RSO is not providing adequate relief. My ramblings are simply because I want to share what i have learnt so far. I will keep it on topic from here on in though.

Thanks for your concern, I do sometimes come across as more all over the place than i really am because i literally get excitable about the topic and the endless possibilities. I do have a regular dosing regime which is the important part. I wont stop testing and playing around because it's in my nature to do so but i will stop bogging down the thread and keep it on topic.

 

[Mariamlu]

I have decarbed the oil before successfully but the last time I definitely ruined the batch, its pretty effective for pain but there is no high at all from it so clearly THC went out the window. Maybe you over-heated that lot seriously without yourself knowing?
Ordinary ovens and hot plates have thermostats, what check and react only after each 10-15 degrees. I have used oil bath to minimize temp ups and downs. What more oil, than better it keeps closer to the middle of two switching points of hot plate. But I have a big risk to push my cup over in a lot of oil.
I use multi-cooker, it is like rice cooker but has more programs. I fill it with cheap cooking oil, and put stainless steel cup and washer under it. Washer has to be there, otherwise it sucks to bottom. I boil out ethanol first, then rise the temperature and decarb for 30 minutes.
I have tried also to recover ethanol, cooled it down with running tap water, in pipe-in-pipe laboratory glass cooler. But it condenses and runs back all the time, so boiling with condensing took me like 5 hours or more. When I increased temp to decarb temp, there was not the smallest tiny bubble to come (CO2). So I think it decarboxylated already at ethanol boiling cycle, which lasted 5 hours. Now I simply evaporate ethanol, I do it outside (it's summer now).

Nu

 

[Mariamlu]

quotation marks were missing, the first sentence was Jack's.

 

[CajunCelt]

I had toxic neuropathy from FolFox6 chemo.
I was lucky (?) to knock it out with my oil pretty rapidly.
Good luck in your research.

 

[Jack Dabs]

Wow Miriamlu sounds like you have all the equipment for everything. Yes I definitely went a bit heavy handed on the heat. I use iso alcohol so I was trying to purge it and got carried away because there were still a lot of bubbles. I was trying new equipment and realise my error so hopefully wont repeat it

From now on I will make sure it stays at the correct temp and add a little vodka to the mix at the end so the oil doesnt burn.

If all else fails I will revert to the old equipment but I think it was just an oops and the next batch is going to be great with the heat extraction method. I also use the oil bath and find it much easier to control temps with my infared gun.Hate having to use iso but buying 95% vodka costs a fortune here and you only get half a litre. Wish we had everclear.

Sounds like you got your method all figured out, hope your oil does whatever job you need it to.

 

[Jack Dabs]

I had toxic neuropathy from FolFox6 chemo.
I was lucky (?) to knock it out with my oil pretty rapidly.
Good luck in your research.

Wow CajunCelt really glad to hear you had such success with the oil. I understand your apprehension at the use of the word lucky but suppose you really are. There was a whole world of unpleasant drugs that would have been waiting for you otherwise.

Do you mind me asking what strains you used?

I will have 2x thc bomb autos and 2x ak47 autos completing soon and then will shut down my tiny bedroom operation for the summer (heat problems),. When I start up in winter I was going to grow:

Blue Dream - as per Motoco's suggestion
Blue Blood - High THC - Very high CBD
Trainwreck - High THC - Medium CBD but apparently very good for anxiety/daytime
Pure Kush - Basically Hindu Kush by another name - as per Motoco's night time meds recommendation.

I see you have similar strains in your current grow but if you remember what strains you used when you had your neuropathy I would be really interested and appreciative.

 

[Jack Dabs]

Just saw your Colorado adventure Cajun, damn what an experience that must have been. I havent even been to Amsterdam, I can only imagine what that level of freedom must be like. Get well first and then travel to the states is a plan of mine, Colorado is definitely on the map now. Toured the States many years ago was a bit too young to fully appreciate it but we did 25 states on 80 days. Many fond memories of your beautiful country.

Glad it's ignited a fire in you and hope you go from strength to strength in your recovery. Glad you getting to enjoy life while you recover, it's what the oil is all about isnt it?