Calling all martians

[bizz]

yo dog

so looking thru the PAD manual... seems odd to me MH has same time factor as HPS 3.6, I would think the increased blue spectrum of the MH would speed it up... if time factor is same then what is advantage of MH for PAD set up? just has more blue?

415nm-450nm blue light has time factor of 1.3, so if I understand things, the set up I had before with the all blue LED had increased plant maturation compared to using a HPS in its place? is this right?

this really has me thinking I should run the black lights more to get my 24 hour time factor down... or maybe crank the dimmer up a bit... run them during HPS or some of the 660 on time...

also picked up temp controller for exhaust fan, this should help me get temps higher... for instance yesterday my temp range was 57'-72', by turning off air flow a bit I think I can get things into better range, 65'-82'

btw have you heard of anyone using blue LED to run 6/6 on/off for veg, I thought I read this somewhere along the way? I want to say sal posted that info at some point but I havent been able to find where I read that... idea being to increase circadian rhythm of plants with blue light to speed up growth, the quote I read said something about increase growth rate and tightly stacked internodes... going to have some clones to experiment on soon...

 

[dogsnova]

So looking thru the PAD manual... seems odd to me MH has same time factor as HPS 3.6, I would think the increased blue spectrum of the MH would speed it up... if time factor is same then what is advantage of MH for PAD set up? just has more blue?

The manual is showing a CMH time factor not a MH.. I'm with you thou I have no idea why a MH is the same time factor a HPS.. This is something I have been also wanting I to ask Sal..

The MH for PAD is all about the strong blue.. The blue is needed for good root and stem development..

415nm-450nm blue light has time factor of 1.3, so if I understand things, the set up I had before with the all blue LED had increased plant maturation compared to using a HPS in its place? is this right?

Blue light by it's self actually hurts THC production from my understanding..Blue need to be properly cycled and mixed with red in order for it to work optimum. Blue is fast but according to Sal it's too fast to be used by it's self.. Just like red 660 is too slow and it also needs to be used with other spectrums as well..

this really has me thinking I should run the black lights more to get my 24 hour time factor down... or maybe crank the dimmer up a bit... run them during HPS or some of the 660 on time..

Every strain acts differently under a PAD setup. My strain when having too much 730nm during the first two to three weeks will cause the tops of my flowers to grow stretchy like I was saying, but the buds just below the canopy will look correct. I think this problem I'm having can be fixed by using 730nm LED's.. But for right now all I got for a 730 spectrum is black lights..
So you will need to check and see if too much 730nm black lighting causes the same thing to happen with your girls.. So ya you can ramp up your 730nm if you want, but I would watch out for extra stretch like I was talking about.

The 24hr time factor is pre-determined when using this timing method.. I don't think you can change the 24hr time factor by increasing the lighting intensity..The amount of PAD Lighting intensity (the grower uses) is determined by the plants height.. This PAD timing method already puts the 24hr time factor at aprox 1.8 witch is optimum for THC production. Like I was saying before if you add 730nm to your 660nm (on time) you will over shoot your 12 hours of SID darkness. i.e...You will put your girls into a 10/14 type of ripening schedule.. But ya play around with the 730nm on time and intensity... You shall see what I mean.. It's all about testing your area anyway..

btw have you heard of anyone using blue LED to run 6/6 on/off for veg, I thought I read this somewhere along the way? I want to say sal posted that info at some point but I haven't been able to find where I read that... idea being to increase circadian rhythm of plants with blue light to speed up growth, the quote I read said something about increase growth rate and tightly stacked internodes... going to have some clones to experiment on soon...

My uncle did 6 on 6 off with a HPS.. But he did this with an old 250 HPS.. This did not workout so good for him..He also did not have PAD going when he did this.

I have not see Sal post anything about that.. It dose say something in the PAD manual I think, but not to much said about it though.. So no I don't have any info for ya on this matter.. Again this is something we need to ask Sal about..

 

[bizz]

arent you west coast? early post, guess you're on PAD schedule also...

What is CMH? Some special MH?

When I referred to my previous all blue set up, I meant instead of HPS, I was saying that it would seem like the HPS would make plants mature slower than PAD with blue LED. Is this right?

blue/red time factor is 2.1 and red/far red .5/.5 is 1.4, but if I am using HPS then it seems like my blue/red is going to be some where close to 3.6...

Seems like I got a little odd stretching, but its still early in the cycle...

found this on page 13 PAD manual

Both Simple and Advanced Rauber Enhancement typically use one Blue light duration per twenty-four hour daily cycle, except Simple Rauber Enhancement applications using 6/6 type schedules to trigger increased node production and stimulated growth.

What is this 6/6? Some tweak on Simple Rauber?

Gave half the girls clone hair cuts, other half tomorrow, got 40 cuts(from 6 plants) in oasis cubes under the blue LED. Prob get another 40-50 tomorrow. These plants really have a lot of healthy growth. I was looking at pics from last run under scrog at week 3 of flower(2 weeks veg) under 1000HPS, its really not a close comparisson... and last run I had some mother's I made these girls from but there's no way I would have been able to get 40 cuts from all 12 last run week 3 and still have any plant left...

 

[dogsnova]

arent you west coast? early post, guess you're on PAD schedule also......

No I'm east cost... Sal and Temporal Photonics are west cost.. I'm in the state that looks like a mitten...LOL...the Motor City..(hence) dogs-nova.. But ya that's one good thing about a PAD lighting schedule, the grower can tend to the girls pretty much any time of the day..

What is CMH? Some special MH?...

Ceramic Metal Halide..This bulb is a special MH. This is a full spectrum MH..See pic below (the 4k bulb is what they are referring to).. I'm thinking the reason they didn't put a regular MH in the manual is. The 4k CMH has alot of blue and alot of red. So I guess if your going to use a MH they probably would prefer the use of the CMH bulb with PAD lighting. Of course you can't cycle the blue and red with this bulb, but this HID bulb has the most red and blue that I've seen..
https://www.420magazine.com/gallery/data/500/ceramic.jpg

When I referred to my previous all blue set up, I meant instead of HPS, I was saying that it would seem like the HPS would make plants mature slower than PAD with blue LED. Is this right?...

Not if you dont have your PAD timing correct..

blue/red time factor is 2.1 and red/far red .5/.5 is 1.4, but if I am using HPS then it seems like my blue/red is going to be some where close to 3.6......

Yes this is correct. Your 24hr time factor will be higher using an HID in the PAD lighting mix. The 24hr time factor of 1.8 is for THC syntheses potential. Witch is what the outdoor SUN can produce.. If you look at the manual timing setups, you will see that you can set the PAD timing schedule up so the girls think it's a 12/12 type of flowering or a 11/13 or 10/14. This is how you ripen with PAD lighting. Just as you would with a HID only type of flower.

Time factor is kind of hard for me to explain..Because I wasn't the one that figured it out.. Sal and the team at TP did..

Seems like I got a little odd stretching, but its still early in the cycle......

Ya on the tops of the flowers is were I see it happen the most.. When I put the black light on a dimmer switch I can somewhat get this under control. Not completely though. This is were the 730nm LED's come into play IMO. Much better bud formation I would think...

found this on page 13 PAD manual

Both Simple and Advanced Rauber Enhancement typically use one Blue light duration per twenty-four hour daily cycle, except Simple Rauber Enhancement applications using 6/6 type schedules to trigger increased node production and stimulated growth.

What is this 6/6? Some tweak on Simple Rauber?...

Yes I would think, but I don't know much about this timing method.. As soon as Sal dose a tread this will be a good question to ask him. I'm sure there is a lot of info they did not put in the first edition of the PAD manual.. The second edition of the PAD manual will I'm sure have much more info..

These plants really have a lot of healthy growth. I was looking at pics from last run under scrog at week 3 of flower(2 weeks veg) under 1000HPS, its really not a close comparisson... and last run I had some mother's I made these girls from but there's no way I would have been able to get 40 cuts from all 12 last run week 3 and still have any plant left...

So your LED veg setup is producing very bushy girls.. This is a good thing I would think..

What is your LED veg setup.. Just two ufo's?

 

[bizz]

re: PAD schedule, I really like being able to check on the girls 24/7... altho the red LED's mess with my vision for a few minutes after returning to earth...

Still trying to get my head wrapped around what time factor means, the 'rule' I keep going back to is how under 24 hour 660nm the plant would eventually start to flower, since it wasnt getting any blue signal and the plant perceived 5.2 hours of 660nm as 1 hour SID... so after 1 week(24 hours x 7 days = 168 hours) plants would get( 168 hours / 5.2 time factor = 32.3) 32.3 hours plant perceived SID... so after 6 weeks plants would be into their 2nd week of SID flower...

that helps me understand the concept but applying it... ?

So then there is this magical 1.8 time factor of the sun... which is supposed to maximize trich production? what about total yield? what about time to harvest? seems like time factor is some how involved with speeding up and improving all these things but its all a mystery at this point to me... i guess there is time factor and there is a plants 24 hour day and how much blue signal it gets, so we can control length of blue signal and what other spectrums are in play and length/frequency of PAD spectrums(660/730) time on/off, not too fast and not too slow... goldie locks stylee

currently my veg set up is one all blue UFO... looking to expand

when my last HPS run was finishing up I was vegging with 2 UFO's, then switched to advanced PAD and added another red UFO, both the red UFO's are being used in flower chamber currently...

I would like to get another blue and another red ufo so I could do simple rauber in veg chamber with 2 blue and 1 red UFO, for that matter I'd like 2 more red UFO's for flower chamber... but since funding is always a consideration...

instead of buying 2 more UFO(@$150-160each)I was thinking of building a small array of red party CFL and throwing a couple CFL(either 2700k or actinic) in the blue mix

I would prefer 24w red CFL, but h.depot only has the 13w ones for $4.99... online the 24w range in price from $9.99 to $13, plus maybe a little shipping

4 x 24w red CFL = $50-60+ plus I need to rig up wiring and such, $10-20+, total cost $60-100+...

2 x 42w($10+) or 62w($14+) 2700k CFL = $25-30+ plus wiring, $10-20+, total cost $35-50+...

havent been able to find actinic screw in CFL, they are hard to find in general, only aquarium/pet stores... and they seem to cost more than regular flouro...

So 2 more UFO would cost $300-320, or maybe just get 1 red @$150-160

CFL set up $95-150+

Seems like LED's would give better results and use energy more efficiently...

 

[bizz]

All done with clone cut... miscounted yesterday, actually had 39, not 40, but got 56 today, 10 of them are just little sprouts, we'll see how many root...

Here are big girls after cuts, left small leaves on so plant can suck nutrients, tried to get all sprouting undergrowth, they really look much fuller compared to last weeks picks on previous page...

 

[dogsnova]

Ya I use 4 20w red cfl's and I also have two of those 24w red ones you are talking about.. Cfl's have a time factor of aprox 4.0 so they are faster then 660nm but not as good as a PAD light source IMO.. Led's hit the bulls eye. But unfortunately they hit my wallet also....

So when mixing red party cfl's into the PAD mix it causes the PAD time factor to drop. Personally I think it drops to around 1.3 to 1.2 depending on how much wattage of party cfl's are being used..So when using red party cfl's and putting the PAD time factor at around 1.2 as an example. You can see that using 17 hours of PAD lighting will give your girls aprox 14 hours worth of SID. Not good unless I'm tring to ripen (witch at the moment I'm not)..

I haven't been able to figure out the exact amount of time to use PAD lighting wile using party cfl's with my girls. But to be honest I would much rather use 660nm LED's... Hell even 630nm would probably be better then red party cfl's IMO.

When Sal gets his tread going, I think he's going to show the use of red party cfl's.. Not exactly sure though.. But I know we can get him to answer questions about the use of red party cfl's. And the use of 630nm also..

Until then I'm going to hold off on buying any more gear..He is supposed to be starting one somtime in APRIL..

Also the 120 watt all red panels on the bay is what I am looking at. But the ufo's that are 660/630 are cheap also.. Amonstar ufo's or something like that..$145 shipped.. If the ufo's would get around $100 then I would get the ufo's for sure.. Plus this Amonstar company need to make 420/440 all blue ones also.. I know wishful thinking, but you never no...LOL

 

[dogsnova]

Yep... Looking good.. IMO you just need to watch out for the top flower 730nm stretch..

 

[bizz]

Ya I use 4 20w red cfl's and I also have two of those 24w red ones you are talking about.. Cfl's have a time factor of aprox 4.0 so they are faster then 660nm but not as good as a PAD light source IMO.. Led's hit the bulls eye. But unfortunately they hit my wallet also....

So when mixing red party cfl's into the PAD mix it causes the PAD time factor to drop. Personally I think it drops to around 1.3 to 1.2 depending on how much wattage of party cfl's are being used..So when using red party cfl's and putting the PAD time factor at around 1.2 as an example. You can see that using 17 hours of PAD lighting will give your girls aprox 14 hours worth of SID. Not good unless I'm tring to ripen (witch at the moment I'm not)..

I haven't been able to figure out the exact amount of time to use PAD lighting wile using party cfl's with my girls. But to be honest I would much rather use 660nm LED's... Hell even 630nm would probably be better then red party cfl's IMO.

i think you talked me out of red cfl for PAD... wonder if they would be ok for simple rauber red...?

When Sal gets his tread going, I think he's going to show the use of red party cfl's.. Not exactly sure though.. But I know we can get him to answer questions about the use of red party cfl's. And the use of 630nm also..

I got some 13w red cfl to light up work area outside grow... when turned off a couple are one color and the others are slightly different shade, their light is def more orange compared to 660nm LED.

Until then I'm going to hold off on buying any more gear..He is supposed to be starting one somtime in APRIL..

I might be able swing it with this blue ufo and wire up these 13w red cfls to do simple rauber... I might need more gear for veg room before april... Do you think simple rauber would be better with 2 blue ufo 1 red or 1 blue 2 red ?

Also the 120 watt all red panels on the bay is what I am looking at. But the ufo's that are 660/630 are cheap also.. Amonstar ufo's or something like that..$145 shipped.. If the ufo's would get around $100 then I would get the ufo's for sure.. Plus this Amonstar company need to make 420/440 all blue ones also.. I know wishful thinking, but you never no...LOL

wow just checked their ebay store, they are cheap, I think I saw $99 shipped!!(oh $40shipping...) Only draw back is spectrum... 630/660 would work I am sure but it is going to be a little faster than 660 I'd think... maybe this is good... but the blue's are 470... hmm... I got mine from an ebayer called ledwholesaler, their listed prices are a little more than amonstar, I picked mine up cash/no shipping, the red is all 660 and the blue is 452, which is higher than 450, but I read the peak of 452 extends +/-7nm near peak and slopes down from there so decent cut below 450...

I need to investigate these panels, if I can find cheap all red I could use those for flower chamber and use my ufos for simpler rauber...

 

[Bandit420]

I'll jump into this thread with a bit of info on my Alien invasion occuring in my hut.
My first LED was a 90watt UFX from California Nursery. I used it to veg out clones to be a foot tall during the warm season to reduce heat and it worked like a charm.
This winter I moved it into my bloom hut after reading countless testimonials of the UFO producing more resin than HPS but the buds took longer to ripen and were lighter.
When I combined the UFX with the power of my 430 watt son agro with an Eye Hortilux bulb the results were phenominal! I ahve some plants with gobs of resin that you can scoop it off with a spoon.
Since that first crop with both lights I've added a 55 watt red and blue panel from ebay and a 13 watt spotlight from ebay.

 

[Bandit420]

 

[ol hippy]

Whew that was a lot of techical reading ,my eyes are burning ! I think I'll stick to my little 400 hps less mental strain !! I'm too old to go back to school, I just want to be higher !! Nice thread thanks for the new info guys !!

 

[dogsnova]

i think you talked me out of red cfl for PAD... wonder if they would be ok for simple rauber red...?...

Good question.. I'm not sure.. Once you get your PAD timing correct. I think red party cfl's will be ok to add. But you need to have your PAD timing correct first IMO.. As far as simple rauber goes... Ya I think they would work for this. I haven't tried though..

I got some 13w red cfl to light up work area outside grow... when turned off a couple are one color and the others are slightly different shade, their light is def more orange compared to 660nm LED....

Ya this is the biggest problem with red party cfl's.. You need to buy 20 of them just to get 8 or so good red ones, the rest are like an orange color....LOL.... No thanks..

Do you think simple rauber would be better with 2 blue ufo 1 red or 1 blue 2 red ?...

Simple rauber is best with your total wattage used cut in half... 1/2 the wattage blue and 1/2 the wattage red.. i.e..Using 400w.... Half would be Blue and half would be Red..

Only draw back is spectrum... 630/660 would work I am sure but it is going to be a little faster than 660 I'd think... maybe this is good.........

630nm is basically the same time factor as 660nm is..It might be 5.1 or some sh*t like that.. The only difference being 660nm hits the bulls eye..So ya those ufo's that have both 630/660nm would be ok.. Now if they had all 660nm for that price,then I would go with the all 660nm ones. The 630/660 will be just fine for that price IMO..Sal is the one that told me about the 630 being basically the same as 660's time factor in an email I think.

I got mine from an ebayer called ledwholesaler, their listed prices are a little more than amonstar, I picked mine up cash/no shipping, the red is all 660 and the blue is 452, which is higher than 450, but I read the peak of 452 extends +/-7nm near peak and slopes down from there so decent cut below 450......

Ya I've bought from that place. Got some of their 40w 660nm panels, witch BTW turned out to only draw 27w.. Pretty bright though, but not 40w like it's advertised..Just so ya know

I need to investigate these panels, if I can find cheap all red I could use those for flower chamber and use my ufos for simpler rauber...

The good thing about panels is..They are longer and a little wider then a ufo.. They will give a much better foot print IMO. The only drawback is there is not a lot of sellers selling all 660nm or all blue ones. Mostly you will need to get them custom made. Soon more sellers will be selling all red and all blue panels.. That is of course unless they figure out how to put two plugs on their existing red and blue panels..i.e. A 300w red and blue panel could have two plugs and separate the led so it's 100w blue and 200w 660nm..That is the next kind of panel I would like to see come to the market.

 

[dogsnova]

I'll jump into this thread with a bit of info on my Alien invasion occuring in my hut.

Nice setup...But not quite on MARS.....

 

[Bandit420]

No definately not Mars, more like Area 420!

 

[dogsnova]

Nice...Area 420 I like..

 

[dogsnova]

bizz I got the email back from Sal today..Here is his answers to some of my questions..

This one is about the 730 wattage.. I guess I learned something today also...LOL..Take note of the highlighted red parts of his answers,,

"If the night is longer than hoped for it can be either wattage related up to the point of saturation signal strength or higher levels of wattage, or it can be both or straight time related after the point of saturation strength wattages. Adding more 735nm wattage will speed up the ripening time to the above mentioned point for PAD, or will also do so somewhat with additional Far Red during the DAY duration of wattage combined light spectrums."

This one was asking him about my one,two and three fingered leaves using a 7/17 lighting schedule.

"Yeh, I'd go to 18/6, assuming that signal reception is good, and you may want to go to 19/5 instead and then back to 18/6 if you think it's slowing down too much. I kind of like exploring the far side and then backing up a bit if I have to just to feel out a new strains boundaries."

This one was asking about the .5/1.0 Pad 660/730 schedule..

"When the plants have larger amounts of Photo neutral DNA, they may be less sensitive to the Far Red effect and such an increase in Far Red duration can have a deneficial effect. It's usually best to try the .5/.5 Enhancements, for the sake of maintaining a high synthesis potential if possible."

This one was about using the timing schedule to ripen instead of using a lot of 730nm for the task..This answer is a lot like the one I posted...LOL

"It's best to find the plants main 12/12 type response and start with that, you can then step it down to 4/20 or just jump down to 4/20 for the final 10 days of ripening (which is simpler and I prefer the second time around)."

Hope this helps you try to figure this PAD stuff out...

 

[bizz]

I'll jump into this thread with a bit of info on my Alien invasion occuring in my hut.
My first LED was a 90watt UFX from California Nursery. I used it to veg out clones to be a foot tall during the warm season to reduce heat and it worked like a charm.
This winter I moved it into my bloom hut after reading countless testimonials of the UFO producing more resin than HPS but the buds took longer to ripen and were lighter.
When I combined the UFX with the power of my 430 watt son agro with an Eye Hortilux bulb the results were phenominal! I ahve some plants with gobs of resin that you can scoop it off with a spoon.
Since that first crop with both lights I've added a 55 watt red and blue panel from ebay and a 13 watt spotlight from ebay.

I like how you are mixing it up. Good to hear you got more resin with the LED in the mix, gives me hope for positive results. Since I'm trying something different with the PAD I am a little nervous until I start to see more bud development, but its still early for this strain and my setup so I'm waiting... but what I saw in veg and the growth rate during flower has really been great... I really like LED's and PAD is quickly growing on me(heck, I'm all in!)...

 

[bizz]

Whew that was a lot of techical reading ,my eyes are burning ! I think I'll stick to my little 400 hps less mental strain !! I'm too old to go back to school, I just want to be higher !! Nice thread thanks for the new info guys !!

"I just want to be higher" too! That's why I'm doing the PAD, increased potency... Not to mention energy saving, reduced stretch and other stuff I'm forgeting.

If full advanced PAD is too much for ya then consider doing substitution method or like orangeblood did and supplement with LED for more kick.

 

[bizz]

bizz I got the email back from Sal today..Here is his answers to some of my questions..

what up Sal! How's life in the city with the highest per capita MJ consumption in America?

This one is about the 730 wattage.. I guess I learned something today also...LOL..Take note of the highlighted red parts of his answers,,

"If the night is longer than hoped for it can be either wattage related up to the point of saturation signal strength or higher levels of wattage, or it can be both or straight time related after the point of saturation strength wattages. Adding more 735nm wattage will speed up the ripening time to the above mentioned point for PAD, or will also do so somewhat with additional Far Red during the DAY duration of wattage combined light spectrums."

"saturation signal strength", so at some point for a given grow space, there is an amount of 730nm where higher wattage levels would not have an effect whatsoever?

Does this "saturation signal strength" apply to 660nm and blue as well?

What does time related mean? Does this mean .5/.5 might not be optimial for my setup/strain and maybe I should be doing .7/.3(more red=shorter night) or .3/.7(more far red=longer night)?

Or does time related mean something about my over all spectrum and the 24hour time factor?

Interesting, so it sounds like running black lights during HPS would lower time factor and increase ripening time, I might do this altho I would prefer clear inc's during HPS since same wattage... but thats even more gear...

This one was asking him about my one,two and three fingered leaves using a 7/17 lighting schedule.

"Yeh, I'd go to 18/6, assuming that signal reception is good, and you may want to go to 19/5 instead and then back to 18/6 if you think it's slowing down too much. I kind of like exploring the far side and then backing up a bit if I have to just to feel out a new strains boundaries."

I think most my 1,2,3 finger leaves were started when plants were under 1 blue UFO, 2 red UFO, with 300w black light up full, running PAD. Seems like since moving plants into HPS chamber they started growing 5 finger leaves in most places, altho a few spots on edges have some odd looking singleton growth. My timers are set same, so maybe it has to do with time factor of different spectrums (HPS vs 452nm)or too much 730 before since I have dimmer now, or maybe just the phase of plant growth cycle. Seems like PAD and single spectrum LED light really bring out the extremes in gene expression and thus as the plants cycle thru the different phases drastically different looking morphology displays. Just my 3 week old theory...

I'm wondering if I go to 19/5 or 20/4 and growth slows down, does that just mean the plant stops exhibiting signs of growth but is still maturing properly, so if I went to 19/5 and after week things slowed down and I went back to 18/6, would the plant have lost any flower time or would it still be on schedule for harvest? Would I have lost a week or just have less overall growth? Because plant height could become an issue for me so freezing them with 19/5 or 20/4 has a certain appeal.

This one was asking about the .5/1.0 Pad 660/730 schedule..

"When the plants have larger amounts of Photo neutral DNA, they may be less sensitive to the Far Red effect and such an increase in Far Red duration can have a deneficial effect. It's usually best to try the .5/.5 Enhancements, for the sake of maintaining a high synthesis potential if possible."

How would you know the plants Photo neutral DNA? Trial and error? Are some strain more or less inclined or is it individual plant specific? Are 6 week strain more/less than 10 week strain?

Whats the benefical effect?

This one was about using the timing schedule to ripen instead of using a lot of 730nm for the task..This answer is a lot like the one I posted...LOL

"It's best to find the plants main 12/12 type response and start with that, you can then step it down to 4/20 or just jump down to 4/20 for the final 10 days of ripening (which is simpler and I prefer the second time around)."

Hope this helps you try to figure this PAD stuff out...

I hoped 18/6 would hit 12/12 and I wouldnt have to mess around, without having my head totally wrapped around the PAD concepts I'm nervous to make changes...

I appreciate the help, totally flying blind...