Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plants

[Papageno]

I am new to Hydro and built a "large" (34 gal) tote system like those superponics systems that is a multi-plant DWC with a top drip to test out this method. Now to start with I went to this local grow store and got some bad advise that I knew at the time was bad but they were very convincing regarding my seeds. I have very old seeds from when I used to breed 10 years ago that I wanted to use in this first hydro setup for experimentation. After sprouting them in paper towels I transferred them directly into growstone per the grow shop recommendation. I thought that was a bad move but like I said they convinced me it would be fine. Instead of the tap root shooting down and the pod coming up they both just started curling up in the first vacant area between the stones where it was placed in. So lesson 1 learned, use some sort of basic medium like peat rooting medium to get them started in not directly in the stones.

The problem is it has taken a long time for them to break up through to the top and I had to go in and rearrange the rocks and the sprouts to get the tap root to drive downward. Now they have all but one come up and are starting to look OK.

The reason I say all this is the real question I have is about my water solution and the constantly rising PH durring this initial phase where the sprouts have no real root. I have only had this setup running for about 6 days. It seems every day I need to PH down even though the sprouts are real small with no real leaves yet so they can not be doing much to the water. The PPMs are slowly rising even though there does not appear to be water loss or evaporation happening. Originally I didn't want to start with any nuts in the solution until I saw them break the surface but the guys here convinced me I should have something. So I added a very dilute solution of some very basic cheap stuff you can get at Home depot just for the initial sprouting period. I followed the instructions at about half strength and had a starting PPM in stable water of about 310 (starting at 6ppm before adding anything). The tote is opaque with a black lid and grey walls and should have no light leaks. I have them under a low wattage florescent tube set right now so even if some light got through it is very weak.

So I am wondering if I already have a algae problem or something because each day I check and the PH has gone up considerably and the PPMs are rising but I still have just sprouts. Yesterday I had it at about 5.4 and this morning it was at 6.13 and my PPM is up to 374. Late yesterday was the first that half of them were visible so for this first 6 days there has been really not much use of the nuts for the plants.

I was planning on flushing today and starting a new res but if I have contaminated the res already then maybe I should wash it out.

comments on this would be greatly appreciated.

Also I have gotten lots of contradictory advice on starting from seeds in hydro. What are your opinions on initial nute concentration during the first week basically before the seed breaks the surface? Obviously when it starts making leaves it will be hungry but but it seems like a huge waste to provide a pile of nutes when it can't access them.

And I guess lastly... I will be changing out the res later today. I have sprouts that are just above the surface to about 1 .5 inches up. None have real leaves yet but a few are starting. Is this too early to go to full concentration yet for nutes or is it time to hit the throttle. I was planning on dumping and reloading the res every 4 days as I am going to be on this organic stuff (Mills) that wont last too long. However I have some of that Synthetic AN Sensi Grow that can last up to a week that I can use too. So if I am going to dump in say 4 days and I just have some sprouts should I be running high nutes or still light stuff? I am thinking I can run the AN Sensi grow at 1/4 strength for the first week to get the tap root to the well then switch to the good stuff.

Thanks!

 

[go4snypr]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water, PH, PPM....both going up without any real plants

1/2 strength solution is probably too hot for seedlings. I would suggest no nutes till you see a couple sets of leaves. then start low and work your way up. can't explain the ph though,, i find mine does the same, I am doing top feed to waste in rock wool and my water stays in a container and the ph is always going up in it too. I would suggest letting it float as there is a range that the plant will take up nutrients. try not to get higher than 6.2 or lower than the 5.4....5.8 is ideal if you can get it to stay at that.

 

[Papageno]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water, PH, PPM....both going up without any real plants

So maybe just use no nutes for about 4 more days and flush again and start small? I have been worried all last week that all these nutes are doing is making a good place for bacteria and algae to grow but they aren't helping my sprouts.

When I clone I know that will be easy to manage because I always get very long and hairy roots. And Seeds in soil...well that is as easy as pie. But sprouts hanging loosely in the growstones getting a flush once in a while is something new to me and seems kinda delicate. It seems to be working but I am just unsure of when to turn on the nutes and at what strength to ramp for the seedlings. Again my gut was to wait for some leafs before adding in nutes but the guys at the grow store were adamant they needed something right away.

Thanks

 

[go4snypr]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water, PH, PPM....both going up without any real plants

I dont add nutrients until I have a couple sets of leaves, or if the plant starts looking light green. but start light and work bigger.. Its easier to add it than remove it. I am not a dwc guy either, but you could look at starting in rock wool, I find they are great as they hold moisture and air. you can soak them once a day and your good to go, it will also give the roots something to hold on to at the start. but hopefully a dwc guy to chime in here.....

 

[BuddroGreen]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

go4snypr gave you good advice about not adding nutes until 2-3 sets of leaves, that's how I have done it and it works out well. Once they have those sets you can start a very diluted nute mixture, just remember you can't feed a steak to a baby, so bring up your strength very slowly.

I also use AN pH perfect in GH water farms and their pH is always going up, so I pretty much have to check pH in the morning and evening and adjust down.

 

[Papageno]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

thanks all...

So that is what I originally thought. I told the guy at the store that I was going to wait for the first set of leaves to show before adding 1/4 strength nutes and he went on this tirade. He basically tried to make me feel stupid about starving the sprouts even though I know there is more than enough to get started.

And of course now I have burned babies and they are in shock from me changing out that crap and going to a clean res.

Well luckily cannabis is a "weed" and darn hard to kill.

Good thing I am using 12+ year old seeds...my youngest were ~12. I am not sure which set these are from as I had some issues and started putting many down...but I have starts that are form at least 12 years ago and maybe as far back as 1996.

 

[latewood]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

I feed my seedlings in hydro, Liquid Karma for 2 weeks while the plant grow to 4-5 sets of alternating nodes, and have established roots; This is the key. After that; Ia dd full strength nutrients as the bottle directs.

When I 1st started growing hydroponically; I used a 1500 ppm schedule throughout grow with GH 3-part. This worked fine. All in all; Your nutrient schedule is your decision. Great thread. Peace.

 

[GoldGrower]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

I am new to Hydro and built a "large" (34 gal) tote system like those superponics systems that is a multi-plant DWC with a top drip to test out this method. Now to start with I went to this local grow store and got some bad advise that I knew at the time was bad but they were very convincing regarding my seeds. I have very old seeds from when I used to breed 10 years ago that I wanted to use in this first hydro setup for experimentation. After sprouting them in paper towels I transferred them directly into growstone per the grow shop recommendation. I thought that was a bad move but like I said they convinced me it would be fine. Instead of the tap root shooting down and the pod coming up they both just started curling up in the first vacant area between the stones where it was placed in. So lesson 1 learned, use some sort of basic medium like peat rooting medium to get them started in not directly in the stones.

The problem is it has taken a long time for them to break up through to the top and I had to go in and rearrange the rocks and the sprouts to get the tap root to drive downward. Now they have all but one come up and are starting to look OK.

The reason I say all this is the real question I have is about my water solution and the constantly rising PH durring this initial phase where the sprouts have no real root. I have only had this setup running for about 6 days. It seems every day I need to PH down even though the sprouts are real small with no real leaves yet so they can not be doing much to the water. The PPMs are slowly rising even though there does not appear to be water loss or evaporation happening. Originally I didn't want to start with any nuts in the solution until I saw them break the surface but the guys here convinced me I should have something. So I added a very dilute solution of some very basic cheap stuff you can get at Home depot just for the initial sprouting period. I followed the instructions at about half strength and had a starting PPM in stable water of about 310 (starting at 6ppm before adding anything). The tote is opaque with a black lid and grey walls and should have no light leaks. I have them under a low wattage florescent tube set right now so even if some light got through it is very weak.

So I am wondering if I already have a algae problem or something because each day I check and the PH has gone up considerably and the PPMs are rising but I still have just sprouts. Yesterday I had it at about 5.4 and this morning it was at 6.13 and my PPM is up to 374. Late yesterday was the first that half of them were visible so for this first 6 days there has been really not much use of the nuts for the plants.

I was planning on flushing today and starting a new res but if I have contaminated the res already then maybe I should wash it out.

comments on this would be greatly appreciated.

Also I have gotten lots of contradictory advice on starting from seeds in hydro. What are your opinions on initial nute concentration during the first week basically before the seed breaks the surface? Obviously when it starts making leaves it will be hungry but but it seems like a huge waste to provide a pile of nutes when it can't access them.

And I guess lastly... I will be changing out the res later today. I have sprouts that are just above the surface to about 1 .5 inches up. None have real leaves yet but a few are starting. Is this too early to go to full concentration yet for nutes or is it time to hit the throttle. I was planning on dumping and reloading the res every 4 days as I am going to be on this organic stuff (Mills) that wont last too long. However I have some of that Synthetic AN Sensi Grow that can last up to a week that I can use too. So if I am going to dump in say 4 days and I just have some sprouts should I be running high nutes or still light stuff? I am thinking I can run the AN Sensi grow at 1/4 strength for the first week to get the tap root to the well then switch to the good stuff.

Thanks!

I start my seeds in paper towels and once the seedlet has reached 1-2" I put it straight in to the clay balls. I have never had any problems doing it this way.

I use empty water (my tap water is 0.10 EC) for the first week and then add nutes to an EC of 0.30. After this I measure the solution once a day to see if the figure rises or falls. I always match the reservoir's EC to what the plants are taking up. This gives you osmotic balance and allows for the fastest uptake speeds, resulting in healthy and fast growing plants.

The EC that the plants take up steadily rises as they grow and I always match the reservoir to this. Once the EC reaches around 1.20 it plateaus until they are put in to flower. When this happens the EC rises for a few weeks and then steadily drops until harvest day where the plant will be taking up almost pure water. I match the reservoir to this the whole way

I usually don't change the solution while vegging. I change it when I change to 12/12 and once half way through flowering. How often you need to refresh your reservoir depends on a lot of things but I like to do it once the plants have taken up around 3-4 times the volume of the reservoir

 

[GoldGrower]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

Here's a conversion table if you prefer ppm over EC

 

[Papageno]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

Thanks for the detailed response I will use it.

However like I said one was burned bad, and since the flush nothing is growing. When I flushed and went to clean water they basically stopped growing. I never seen anything like this. They are all standing up. The leafs that are there are perky and looking good. Most of them had the first petal of the first leaf start right before I flushed but have not improved since then. Over the last 4 days nothing has changed. They are all looking at me and doing nothing. I am thinking of adding some nutes because what else is there to do?

 

[go4snypr]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

be patient, probably working on root development......

 

[latewood]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

Thanks for the detailed response I will use it.

However like I said one was burned bad, and since the flush nothing is growing. When I flushed and went to clean water they basically stopped growing. I never seen anything like this. They are all standing up. The leafs that are there are perky and looking good. Most of them had the first petal of the first leaf start right before I flushed but have not improved since then. Over the last 4 days nothing has changed. They are all looking at me and doing nothing. I am thinking of adding some nutes because what else is there to do?

Sorry I missed this above, (this leagally blind thing sucks).

1st thing. You never give sprouts or seedlings nutrients. At least not until they have at least 4-5 alternating sets of leaf nodes, and have developed a root system capable of uptaking nutrients. This was your whole problem. Period.

As far as this past post. As mentioned above. Be patient. Plants are in shock, and if you are lcuky, they will continue to grow.

As far as PH constantly rising...You either have too hard water, or are not using a good PH down. What is PH and PPM or EC of your water? What is the source? Perhaps you need to invest in a Reverse Osmosis water filter system Well worth it.

 

[dank buds]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

As the plants eat or drink pH&ppm will fluctuate depending on witch it is sometimes there thirsty and sometimes there hungry

I go a little less on nutes or until I see leaf tip burn and back off or dilute

 

[Papageno]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

Thanks for all the help. I did lots of things. I started with a flush. I added beneficials, both bacteria and fungi. There is a lot more to it but in the end I got roots into my res about 2 days ago and I have revived 5 of them.

So quick question...is adding fungus like Glomus (HN white widow) before the roots get to the res a waste? How long could they last in a res before they need to get into the roots?

Thanks!

 

[dank buds]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

Thanks for all the help. I did lots of things. I started with a flush. I added beneficials, both bacteria and fungi. There is a lot more to it but in the end I got roots into my res about 2 days ago and I have revived 5 of them.

So quick question...is adding fungus like Glomus (HN white widow) before the roots get to the res a waste? How long could they last in a res before they need to get into the roots?

Thanks!

That great ya saved the plants
I'd say when the roots hit the rez add the beanies so ya don't waste em

 

[Papageno]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

Sorry but it is legal in my state to grow recreational without a license. Any home can have 4 plants no question no issues.

So this is why I am on the site. I used to grow in soil a long time ago but I quit when I moved and it became inconvenient like 10 years ago. Now it is legal so I am trying to learn Hydro. I know how to grow monster plants in soil so I can always fall back on that but my buddy who never stopped found that for him it is easier to use hydro so I thought I would give it a try.

Unfortunately at only 4 plants that means to be legal no cloning. Auto Fem seeds each time. I suppose I could make 4 closets each with a SCROG and have them 2 months apart but that gets spendy and takes a lot of space.

 

[latewood]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

Sorry but it is legal in my state to grow recreational without a license. Any home can have 4 plants no question no issues.

So this is why I am on the site. I used to grow in soil a long time ago but I quit when I moved and it became inconvenient like 10 years ago. Now it is legal so I am trying to learn Hydro. I know how to grow monster plants in soil so I can always fall back on that but my buddy who never stopped found that for him it is easier to use hydro so I thought I would give it a try.

If the snitches try and hunt me down there will be nothing to make of it.

Unfortunately at only 4 plants that means to be legal no cloning. Auto Fem seeds each time. I suppose I could make 4 closets each with a SCROG and have them 2 months apart but that gets spendy and takes a lot of space.

The Fortunate Son! What State? I am just curious that you cannot clone. Thanks

 

[Papageno]

Re: Multiple questions on DWC water - PH & PPM - Both going up without any real plant

So I live in Oregon. We just passed a law allowing for recreational use. The law was kind of a hybrid between Colorado's and Washington's. The state has basically a few months into next year to start allowing for people to apply for licenses to grow and sell. Shops are allowed to start opening for retail sales by the summer. Buried in the law not too deep it clearly states that Oregon residents may grow up to 4 plants per household. Not per individual or adult...per household. So I can do 4 and no more without hassle no matter how bad I stink up the neighborhood. That doesn't make for good cloning. If you could do 12 then you could have 4 in bloom and 4 in veg and 4 in clone at all times and that would be ideal for personal. But at 4 max I assume they would count cuttings as soon as they show roots as plants. The law is new so there is not real "interpretation" done yet. for me to clone I basically would have to do 2 at a time and that is just stupid.

It is the only reason I am growing again. I can and always have been able to get it. I have always meant to get back into growing but now that it is legal I have no reason not to get started as I don't have to hide it. But I am highly limited at 4 plants to what I can do. It would be difficult to do real experiments and studies. I know a lot from years of doing it illegally in soil (always just for personal use). But I never tried Hydro and now that I can do it openly I am just going to give that a shot for a bit. If that don't work I will just fall back on a soil grow again. I have been able to make soil mixes that work nearly as well as hydro as far as super fast and explosive growth. So I am just going to mess around with this for a few runs and see if it really is better or is it just all hype and expense. I can tell you from experience that most growers don't know much about horticulture and do many things wrong based on something they read by some other stoner. I am an engineer. My roommate in college was getting his degree in horticulture and owns his own farm now. We spent lots of time doing experiments on things that really matter. I am strictly staying legal and only for personal use but I want to yield enough to condense it down for cooking. So I am trying this hydro thing to see if it makes that big a difference but I think at 4 plants it probably is not worth the effort. I do have another friend who swears by it as being easier. He stopped growing in soil about 8-10 years back and has done hydro since and tells me it is way easier. He had lots of issues with soil that I never really had. I know how to "prevent" infestations of bugs so whatever. My buddy however does not follow many of the "rules" I see here and gets great yields doing very little work...so I gots ta try it out. I just want to be able to make enough to cook it down and at 4 plants it is tough to do that unless I grow fast and hard.