Soil Grow - Yellowing, dying, need some expert assistance please

I

IllMaster

New Member
Hello all

I am desperate for some expert assistance. Been growing for 20 years, dealt with all sorts of things, but never had anything like this happen.

Whatever is going on wiped out my entire veg/bloom side within weeks a few months ago. Lost a S.A.G.E. & Sour I'd been growing for years, all gone.

Got new fem'd seeds from reliable source, new soil, pots, even used distilled water, literally everything new. All was going well until about 5 days ago, now things are going very wrong again, the pics will speak volumes.

I have tried everything I know how to do, ended up assuming this was a fungal issue and used Bordeaux (well, a commercial solution which is "copper soap", a light solution) to keep it off of the plants and soil. To no avail.

We always use a regimen of Neem (we prefer Einstein Oil neem) and a surfactant to apply to the plants every other day. We do this as a foliar application with a sprayer, and do it religiously, have for 20 years.

Here's the pertinents, and then the pictures. Any help would be immensely appreciated, I feel like I just want to tear it all down I'm so frustrated and upset.

These gals are about 6-8 weeks in. They were doing great, then they stopped vertical growth, shortly thereafter they began exhibiting the issues in the pics below. We have had horrendous heat where we are and I'm now thinking this is all due to heat (82-90F), and I have no idea if the first go round was due to a fungus, or something else. I have great drainage, am using distilled water from gallons purchased at the store to water (wanted to eliminate tap water being at issue, though again, been doing this for decades with no issues like this, all nutes, soil, pots, etc, all brand new.

So, is this a heat issue? A fungus issue? Something else? Any help would be met with eternal gratitude, any questions or more data, please ask. God I am disappointed. :(

SOIL GROW

Strains - GH Jack Herer, Jordan of the Islands God's Blue Cheese, Chimera Sweet Skunk x Masterkush
# of Plants - 7
Grow Type - Soil (Sunshine Mix #4)
Grow Stage - Vegetative
Bucket Size - 5 Gallon, 12 large drainage holes around bottom edge
Lights - (1) 400 Watt MH
Nutrients - Fox Farm
Medium - Sunshine Mix #4
PPM - ?
PH - 6
RH - 35% - 48%
Room Temperature -82-90
Solution Temperature -growroom temp
Room Square Footage - 12' x 8'
Pests - None

Problem: Leaves are turning yellow from the where the leaflets meet outward (thought this may be S issue, but looks a little different?). Also getting chlorotic spots on some leaves, bottom leaves first, bright yellow then dies. Most recently, new growth at tops are yellowing. Any ideas gang? I'm so frustrated and disheartened I can't even stand it. :( So many years of trouble free (or minor issues) and now this....it's soul-crushing...I'm watching my entire new grow after a complete teardown go succumb to what appears to be exactly the same thing.

Here are the pics:

This is a Sweet Skunk x Masterkush. Note how it's yellowing/dying from the center of the leaflets outward to the leaflets:

IMAG06517.jpg

View image in gallery​

The next two photos are of my God's Blue Cheese. No dying from centers like above (yet anyhow), but you can see the yellow spotting occurring on lower leaves:



The next 3 photos are of the Jack Herer. Note the yellowing from the centers on the tops of the plants.



 
I am by no means an expert and use organic soil but I have seen else where plants with similar yellowing and it turned out to be nitrogen toxicity. The grower flushed their soil well and the plant recovered. Just a thought but maybe try flushing one plant well and see if anything changes within a couple days.
 
Hi TheCelt,

Thanks for the reply! That is one thing I have not tried given the FoxFarm nutes have generally been very good to me, but I am definitely going to do exactly as you suggest, flushing the worst of em and see how it goes. Thank you for the suggestion, it's been maddening trying to pin down the symptoms. I have all the pertinent books (garden saver, all Jorge's books, etc), and while some of the shown symptoms are close to some examples, the centers of the leaf actually dying off with yellowing didn't match up to anything.specific, so it's been a lot of guess work in that regard. The yellow spotting seemed to be leaf septoria (fungys), but again, not exactly right with the symptoms.

Thanks again for the suggestion and I will let you know how it goes, fingers crossed!

Thanks brother,

IM
 
i would also try get ph up to 6.5 after flush, 6 is tad low so they are not getting every thing they need . go slow on nutes start half strength and build it up over a few weeks , keep an eye on new growth see how it goes from there, your MH light could also be too close and bleaching the growth making it look like a deficiency :thumb:
 
When you see leaves cupping downward and yellowing starting in the center of the leaves it's either an early sign of iron deficiency or something in the atmosphere causing early leaf abscission. Iron deficiency can be resolved by soil flushing and getting the soil ph balanced again.

Since you've been growing for over 20 years and are stumped, perhaps it's something in the environment that has changed. Is there ripening fruit in the area? Is there a bunch of fermenting vegetation near? Do you have good air circulation and ventilation? Are you using a CO2 generator?

While ethylene is a natural growth chemical in plants, an over abundance of this gas will cause leaf abscission. Leaf abscission is a natural process that occurs as an annual plant reaches it's life cycle or a deciduous tree reaches autumn. The plant gets ready to shed it's leaves by cutting off nutrient supply at the leaf stem, hence, abscission. That's why it seems like the leaf is dying from the inside out. If your grow environment is rich in ripening fruit, fermenting vegetation, poor air circulation/ventilation, faulty CO2 generators or near an exhaust vent, you will need to remove the cause of ethylene toxcity.

Hugs and :goodluck:
 
Hello my friends!!

I have wonderful news to report, and some thanks to issue, and some sage advice to share with others who are dealing with a disaster...be it a fungus, infestation, or whatever.

My ladies are now on the mend, they are ALL doing wonderful and I will try to get some pictures up soon. The pics are worth 1000 words as they show the plants in the mending state, with all the wonderful new healthy growth, and the remains of the damage as well on each plant.

Before I get started, I want to thank you all for your responses, and hugs right back at you cannabelle. All great suggestions and there was something in each of your responses that helped me sort things out...and believe me, it was a mess to untangle. Goes to show that this community is so fantastic and the knowledge we all have is valuable on it's own, but together our knowledge and willingness to help others is far more valuable than the sum of it's parts, so thank you all again for your help.

Here's what happened, why it happened, and how I resolved the issue(s).

The fungus I got that destroyed my whole setup was very real, and it did indeed destroy it all. The complete teardown and sterilization was definitely required, however, the damage and escalation of harm that came on the rebuild and regrow....ugh, I hate to say this...but it was my own fault, though in my own defense, I was panicked and desperate. It was also a number of things happening that I resolved, but I can state the ultimately the issue was nute lockout, so The Nutty Prof wins today's innernets.

After the rebuild, I brought in complete new feminized seed stock from a very reputable dealer, and from very reputable greenhouses.

I used distilled water to start those seeds, and they came on strong and beautiful, each and every one. Because we occasionally have tap water issues here (they get some bloom of some invasive bacteria, issue a boil order, and flush the water system with chemicals and chlorine which you can smell strongly when they do it), I decided to continue to use distilled water to water my young ladies.. Mistake number 1.

I planted them in 1 gal trade pots, and again, very healthy, looked beautiful, but I did notice some tips of the leaves drooping a bit, then dying. Starting to look much like a nute deficiency, but we kept on, neeming them, a little bordeaux, and no nutes yet at this point.

As the trade pots were looking full of roots, I transplanted them to 5 gal pots. Mistake number 2. The damage was continuing and getting worse.

We continued on, neeming, using distilled water, and it occurred to me that the heat was a major factor here (it was, more later), as well as the age of the bulb (400w MH EYE Hortilux). Checked the date on the bulb and it had been (god I'm so embarrassed) almost 2.5 years. I have NO IDEA how that got away from me as I replace the bulbs religiously once per year on both sides, but it did, and one of the reasons we replace the bulb once a years is we have had issues in my early past with aged bulbs producing real problems similar to what's going on, so I bought a new vented hood, new blower, venting, and of course a new bulb.

Installed all of that, and put temp/humidity meters in the grow side and the bloom side. My temperatures went from high 80's and 90 down to 73-76 as the low/high range for each day. Also have a brand new bulb for grow side (a bluish hue), and things are STILL getting worse...plants are very stunted, the leaves are unusually dark green (you'd think that was healthy...in many cases it's not), and the damage is continuing, leaves are dying and all symptoms are still getting worse.

Last resort: Ph testing. We've never ever had a Ph issue, and wasn't really sure how to go about testing a soil grow reliably without dropping $400 on a legit Ph tester (lots of other methods out there but somewhat sketchy). In desperation I bought a few soil testers...$9, $15, $65. As expected, the 2 cheapies registered a perfect 7. The more expensive one registered a 5. A FIVE!! The runoff was testing at 4.5!!!

Still not wanting to panic even harder, I went to a supply store and asked for other testing methods (can test run-off, use strips, use drops in water/soil mix, etc), and I took home a few various testing methods. In short, difficult to test with, not confident in any of the results.

However, in my desperation I figured I'd test my tap water, and then test the distilled water.

Guess what happened?

Yup. Distilled water checked in at barely a 6. Tap water checked in at a perfect 7.

Suddenly, nute lock made EVERY BIT OF SENSE. Good LORD how could I have been so blind???

To top that off, the gals in these 5 gal buckets were VERY wet. Great drainage, Sunshine Mix #4 drains very well anyhow, but the roots had apparently stopped sucking up water, and I suspect if I kept watering I would have rotted everything from the roots on up.

I immediately stopped using the distilled water, and LET MY GALS DRY OUT for days. Not a couple, or a few, but these 5 gal buckets are STILL going strong with the water in them and it took NINE days to get them down to a point where I felt comfortable giving them a bit of tap water (2/3 gal for each bucket) with a bit of light nutrients.

The result?

ALL of my gals have beautiful healthy robust green (correct color!) growth with NO tips drooping, NO drying tips, NO rotting from the inside out on the leaves, and they are shooting up daily, leaving the remains of the damaged leaves behind.

TL/DR;

- Too hot, brought heat down to mid 70's by improving ventilation

- Bulb was old, changed bulb

- WAY too much water and root space for the young gals, let 'em go damn near dry before watering them, don't water so much

- NEVER, EVER, EVER, E-V-A-R use distilled water for a soil grow as your regular watering medium. Not only is the Ph @ 6, but many if not all trace minerals and nutrients are completely gone from this (like, say...IRON...Ms. dead-on-the-money Cannabelle?! :) )
- The Ph was WAAAAY too low (Nutty Prof wins!), and clearly I was in full blown nute lockout. Even though I wasn't feeding it nutes, it was unable to draw the natural nutes from the Sunshine Mix #4, and as a result, i was killing my gals with distilled water!!

I've been a grower now for decades, and I've had some incredibly good fortune and luck with regard to not having any real issues to speak of over those years, until this disaster. It goes to show that regardless of how long you've been growing, no matter how long, or how much great results you've had over the years, no matter how much you think you know...it's when it all goes wrong that you really find out what you're made of, and how much you (don't) know. I have in my possession about every tome of cannabis knowledge that exists (or at least the ones worth having), and as indicated in my OP, i saw many things that looked like it "could be" this or that or the next thing, but nothing really clicked, and some things were a mystery.

It was the confidence I gained and the suggestions by you all here that got me through this, and by LISTENING and taking all the suggestions into account that i was able to overcome and get back on track.

I was a broken man. TheCelt, TheNuttyProfessor, and Cannabelle, thank you so much for your weighing in and helping out a total stranger with what almost ended in the cessation of nearly a quarter of a century of wonderful cannabis growing. I really was about ready to throw in the towel on the whole thing...and I can't even believe I was that far gone, but I was.

It also goes to show that with persistence, patience, and a few deep breaths, even the most desperate, dire situation with a cannabis grow can likely be completely reversed with the right "recipe".

Again, thank you all for your willingness to assist and fine suggestions. You all had something to contribute and it all helped immensely. I'm whole again, and I absolutely cannot wait to share some pics with you in the days to come (I sure wish I could share the bounty with you all!!!)

Ill Master
 
Thanks brother, I sure appreciate the kind words, advice, and willingness to jump in and help out!!

Good info to know about the Ph and distilled. As for me, i will never use it again except to germinate fem'd seeds. :) WAAY too much drama happened for me to go back to that!

As promised (much earlier too!), here are some pics of those SAME GALS from the OP in this thread as of a few moments ago. Amazing and makes me so happy to post these!!

This is one of the GreenHouse Jack Herer's. This one had dying, very dark green leaves and was shown in the first pics:
IMAG066210.jpg


This is the Chimera MasterKush x SweetSkunk. It was almost dead, all large leaves had died and had just a few little nodes where a few small leaves remained:
IMAG065910.jpg


This is another shot of one of the GreenHouse Jack Herer's. Note how all new growth looks gorgeous and beautiful green.
IMAG065810.jpg


This is the Jordan of the Islands God's Blue Cheese. Note how healthy the leaves are, tips to center, absolutely gorgeous!!
IMAG065610.jpg


Here's another shot of a Herer to show how healthy the leaves are. The "spots" you're seeing on these leaves and some in the other images are actually remnants of the routine Neem foilar spraying glaring in the light. These leaves are absolutely perfect:
IMAG065710.jpg


Last shot here is another of the Jordan of the Islands God's Blue Cheese to show how glorious the comeback is.
IMAG065510.jpg


I'm leaving the partially damaged leaves on that are still somewhat viable because they're still producing food for the plant. I've been removing the real bad ones from all gals as they get real bad, but what you see on these will likely remain until they yellow and fall or I simply remove them as the recovery continues.

Compare these photos of the very same plants that are up there in my OP. Same gals!!

I love you all. Thanks so much for all your confidence, help, and generosity in assistance. I hope that in return my post helps some others out who may be unfortunate to experience the same, or can at least draw some knowledge from this post that will help them out.

:thanks: eternal!

Ill Master
 
Thanks again brother, they are looking gorgeous and indeed, we sometimes forget how hearty cannabis really is and what it can withstand before she throws in the towel!

It's always so nice to hear success stories, and glad to hear she was saved!! That someone else benefited from the gift makes it even more awesome!!

Having too many gals is a wonderful problem to have!! :)
 
IIIMaster, well done! Glad to see them pull through.
As to whether or not this post will help anyone out, well, it just may. Cannabelle has me all kinds of worried!!! lol. I'm growing in a barn attic for the first time (new location) and I'm surrounded by an orchard littered with dead, rotting fruit laying on the ground. Now if anything goes wrong, that's the first thing I'm going to think of!! Hahaha. It's about as bizzar a thing to think of when it comes to you girls as it gets.

I can't go away without telling you that you did half the work for the Professor, Cannabelle and TheCelt. You gave a great setup with the info. Too many posts are so vauge, you can't even begin to understant the problem, let alone figure out the solution! :hmmmm: It's also a delight to read articulate posts.

Put YOURSELF down for an 'Atta-boy' on this whole post.


Andy.:Namaste:
 

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