1200w/1800w LED Light Burn, Distances, and Light Specs.

[Scafidi454]

Hi,

I bought some "1800W" LED grow lights with variable "VEG" and "BLOOM" switches; however, I was told they were actually 1200W, and got a discount.

Regardless, I got some clones, and we're at day 24 veg.

Some of the plants got brown tips and started getting yellow / white around the edges. So, I assumed it was a light burn, and moved the lights to the recommended 18", instead of 12".

Although, just a week or so prior, I over fed the plants (twice in one week). I was already putting heavy nutrients down (~1100ppm), and the recommended feeding was only at ~500ppm on 12-6-6 nutes.

So, I'm not sure if they're experiencing light or nutrient burn, but from what I've seen, it seems like light. Since moving the lights up, the bleaching isn't really occurring anymore, but there is some stretching / new branches with like 4" between nodes...

I have a basic 3-way meter with light reading, but the highest value is "2000", which doesn't tell me what I'm measuring.

According to an online calculator, these LEDs should be producing around 108k lumens... Watts to lumens (lm) conversion calculator - I think that might not be quite right, but hey, they gave me a PPFD chart:

Even though this height chart looks a little backwards, these are the charts I got.

These are the specs from the listing, but remember, it used to say 1200w (they updated it):

·Product Dimensions: 12.38 x 8.54 x 2.4 inches
·Product Weight: 4.96 lbs
·Max Power: 1800W
·Actual Power: 120W±10%
·LED Quantities: 120pc 10W Double Chips LEDs
·Angle of LEDs: 140°
·Input Voltage: AC100~240V
·Working Current: 724mA
·Working Environment: -20°- 40°
·Working Frequency: 50-60Hz
·Lifespan: ≥50000 hrs

I'm using one light per two plants.

Here's what they look like:

As you can see in the first photo, the bleaching issue I'm talking about. On others, you can see some cupping upwards, but the temp is maintained around 70deg with a fan and heater going (we're below freezing here).

Trying to figure out the optimal distance, which may vary per strain and take some trial-and-error testing, but what do you think is the ideal distance, and how to correct the issues? I water with 6.5ph water (adjusted), and only give about half the ppm (~800) of nutes once per 7-10 days as recommended now. They don't really need watering between then right now. 24/0 light schedule. So, I might be getting to many moles of DLI per day: PPFD, PAR, Lumens, and Foot-Candle for Growing Cannabis - RQS Blog

 

[Buds Buddy]

What size is your grow area ? The light you have is only good for a 2'x2' area at best. It's only 120 watts at 100% brightness. That's about the amount of light I use to start clones. 1 light per plant might be OK, but that's about it.
The white edges on your leaves? I've had that happen when I watered / fed too often & the soil stayed too wet.

 

[Buds Buddy]

Heads Up. Be careful with the cheap LED's. They do get hot & melt connections. If you smell plastic or electrical.... shut it down. I started out using those types of lights & had the plastic connections on the inside melt away. I'd start entering some of the contest giveaways or tester for Viparspectra if I were you. You get a free light for promoting their product.
@Bill284 .... Got any input on cheap lights ?

 

[Scafidi454]

When you ask about grow area, are you talking about the current covered area, or the potential / desired size canopies?

We also have two 1000w MH/HPS bulbs setup, but were just trying these.

 

[Scafidi454]

If 120w is the maximum output, how do they get by selling it as a 1200w or 1800w maximum?

What height do you think I should put them at?

Two 5-gallon pots side-by-side measure about 2ftx2ft (giving a little bit of overhang on the sides. The entire grow area is 6ftx2ft (6 pots).

The 3-way meter goes up to 2000, but the canopies are at around 500-1000 on that scale since raising from 12" to 18".

I was watering more often, but haven't watered them in the past 4 days, and the moisture level on the 3-way meter is still 7+ on all.

 

[Bill284]

Heads Up. Be careful with the cheap LED's. They do get hot & melt connections. If you smell plastic or electrical.... shut it down. I started out using those types of lights & had the plastic connections on the inside melt away. I'd start entering some of the contest giveaways or tester for Viparspectra if I were you. You get a free light for promoting their product.
@Bill284 .... Got any input on cheap lights ?

Fire Safety: How do you prevent a disaster?

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Without disparaging anyone's choice in equipment.
Read this and think what an extra few bucks for a reputable will save, if something goes south.
Get smoke detectors and the best fire extinguisher you can afford.
Hey Budds. Hope your doing well.
Take care




#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284
Just incase your interested.

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[Delps8]

What height do you think I should put them at?

I wouldn't use that light.

Option 1- replace the current light and get a Vipar Spectras XS-1500 Pro light. I have no vested interest in Vipar Spectra but that light, as best I can tell, is by far and away the best buy in the 2' x 2' grow light market.

I have the XS-1500, the previous model. It's a good little light but the XS-1500 Pro is, without question, the light I would get for a 2' x 2' tent and, in a lot of cases, a pair of those lights would do a great job in a 2' x 4' (I have a 2' x 4' tent).

The Pro is < $150 on Amazon. You can get a discount from the vendor or use the coupon that's available on Amazon and you're now running the "best in class" light for about $100, delivered. And it has recommended hang heights that are very helpful for new growers. And support. And lots and lots and lots of light.

Option 2 - If you keep the light that you've got, the next option is get a device that measures light. A PAR meter will do that and a decent one will set you back $300± or you can spend $600 on an Apogee. Another approach is to spend about $35 on a light meter. $35 is a lot easier on the wallet than $600 for most folks.

Once you have a way of being able to determine the light output, you can easily figure out hang height and dimmer setting.

Option 3 - you can determine light settings through trial and error. That's time consuming and can be damaging to the plants because you will have to lower the light/turn up the power level until you induce light stress in your plant and then raise the light/turn down the power setting a bit, let the plant recover, wait a few days until it grows larger, turn it up, check to see if you've caused light stress, etc. Lather, rinse, repeat. Like I said, it's time consuming but a lot of growers take this approach.

Re. keeping the current light - even if one believes what the vendor is claiming for light output, at max output, that light is generating very little light and I'd bet that the uniformity of the light output is mediocre so you'll end up having a "hot spot" (well a "warm spot") in the center and a very rapid drop off in output as you move away from center.

My recommendation for you would be to replace the light and get the XS-1500 Pro.

 

[Buds Buddy]

If 120w is the maximum output, how do they get by selling it as a 1200w or 1800w maximum?

When LED companies say 1200 watt they are usually talking about the light being equivalent to a 1200 watt HPS light & in reality that's not really true. Us growers actually go by actual power draw from the outlet & your light says 120 watt max.
For a good grow it takes about 150 watts for every 2'x2' area. A 2x4 tent would take 300 watts. A 4x4 would take 600 watts. My 4x8 tent takes 4 - Mars Hydro TSL2000's which are 300 watts each for a total of 1200 watts. It doesn't have to be those exact wattages, but somewhere in the ballpark. I'm currently using a Viparspectra KS5000 in a 4x4 for instance which is 500 watts & it's doing a very nice job.
Most light companies give you different light heights for different stages of growth. Personally, I hang my light as high as possible & use the dimmer switch to control the amount of light they get. I don't raise or lower my lights ever & I'm kind of known for growing big plants.
If you want to max out your grow with a really big yield I would go SIP Bucket. So many benefits to it, like it being just about impossible to overwater & the growth is amazing.
@Azimuth has a Thread called "SIP Club" you should check out. I have pulled 1.25 lbs. from one plant growing in SIP Buckets. I'm currently trying to see if I can pull 2 lbs. from one plant. I vegged the plant almost 10 weeks & have just flipped to flower; so we'll see how well that goes. Had to try it out of curiosity.
Hope some of this info helps. We're all here to try to help new growers get started successfully, so ask all the questions you want & people will be happy to help.

 

[Buds Buddy]

Two 5-gallon pots side-by-side measure about 2ftx2ft (giving a little bit of overhang on the sides. The entire grow area is 6ftx2ft (6 pots).

There's no way you can flower 6 - 5 gallon pots in a 2'x6' area unless you only veg a few short weeks & flip to flower which will result in small plants. That's really only enough room for 2 - 3 plants at the most. I'd only do 2 plants in that size area & veg 4-6 weeks before flipping to flower. That should give you a yield between 4-8 oz. per plant in a Fabric or Plastic Pot. In a SIP Bucket I only do 1 plant for every 3'x3' area & pull about a pound per plant.
If you really want to grow multiple strains at once in the area you have now you might want to use smaller pots (2 or 3 gal.) & veg for less time so the plants don't get too big.
Once you flip to flower, your plants will double in size or more. Keep that in mind so you'll know just how much room you actually have to grow in. Too many plants crammed in together reduces airflow & can cause mold issues.
I just flipped this plant to 12/12 flower. It is in a 4x4 area all by itself. By the end of flower this plant will fill the 4x4 area wall to wall. Hope this gives you a better idea of what to expect.

 

[Buds Buddy]

If 120w is the maximum output, how do they get by selling it as a 1200w or 1800w maximum?

What height do you think I should put them at?

Two 5-gallon pots side-by-side measure about 2ftx2ft (giving a little bit of overhang on the sides. The entire grow area is 6ftx2ft (6 pots).

The 3-way meter goes up to 2000, but the canopies are at around 500-1000 on that scale since raising from 12" to 18".

I was watering more often, but haven't watered them in the past 4 days, and the moisture level on the 3-way meter is still 7+ on all.

If you are talking about those moisture meters with the prongs that you stick in the soil, I'll tell you they are pretty useless. Many of us have tried them & they aren't accurate enough. You are way better off going by pot weight or waiting till you see your leaves start to droop. When your leaves start to droop lift your pot & see how light it feels. Then water the plant & see how heavy it is. You don't water till the pot feels light again.
@Emilya Green has a great tutorial called "How to water a potted plant". That thread has saved many, many growers from bad watering habits. Check it out & you'll know exactly what to do. Emilya is one of the most knowledgeable growers on this site. She has more than 10 years of grow experience & helps a lot of growers when they have plant issues. She's been a godsend for me at times.

 

[Azimuth]

Here are links to the threads @Buds Buddy referenced

#SIP Club

How to water a potted plant

 

[Scafidi454]

Thanks for the info.

The 3-way meter I determined already is really inaccurate on ALL: ph, light, and moisture; especially, after comparing soil ph in a slurry test v. probe (slurry is 6.5 while probe is 7ph).

The SIP bucket diagram I saw on that link looked kind of like how I wanted to setup the buckets, but without the water level PVC indicator. I was going to just put a 2nd 5-gal under the main buckets to catch water, and then run it off with a drain. However, the SIP keeps it as a reservoir. So, I wonder how that works with watering and nutrients; I have to read up on it more.

The LED light I used on this grow a few years back was rated at 300w, and I used it on 3 plants in 5-gallon buckets for the time I had it (ended up having to sell the setup due to a move); it was in a 4x4 tent.

I am growing with an old school grower financing this op. So, moving to another LED that's just 30w stronger without much difference in PPFD distribution is not probably going to fly. If we have to switch lights, we'll probably switch back over to the HPS/MH lights, which cost more to run and more overall. Maybe I can convince them on the next grow.

These plants are in a room probably 15ftx15ftx9ft. They are only about 1-2ft tall right now in 3rd week of veg, and there's still probably 5ft of space above them (plus the light hang). I have been doing LST since the 2nd week, but I'm trying to just let them grow taller now that we're near the end of veg. Some articles say to do LST through the entire grow, but I think it slows down the plant.

When it comes to a lux / lumen / PAR meter, what are some good ones to look at? They've got some for like $20-$50 online.

 

[Scafidi454]

Heads Up. Be careful with the cheap LED's. They do get hot & melt connections. If you smell plastic or electrical.... shut it down. I started out using those types of lights & had the plastic connections on the inside melt away. I'd start entering some of the contest giveaways or tester for Viparspectra if I were you. You get a free light for promoting their product.
@Bill284 .... Got any input on cheap lights ?

These have two fans in each of them, have been running 24-hours for 3+ weeks, and don't feel warm or have any burning electrical type smells coming out of it.

Will try to get a smoke detector in there, as it's good safety practice, but not sure these are going to blow up on me yet.

 

[Buds Buddy]

Thanks for the info.

The 3-way meter I determined already is really inaccurate on ALL: ph, light, and moisture; especially, after comparing soil ph in a slurry test v. probe (slurry is 6.5 while probe is 7ph).

The SIP bucket diagram I saw on that link looked kind of like how I wanted to setup the buckets, but without the water level PVC indicator. I was going to just put a 2nd 5-gal under the main buckets to catch water, and then run it off with a drain. However, the SIP keeps it as a reservoir. So, I wonder how that works with watering and nutrients; I have to read up on it more.

The LED light I used on this grow a few years back was rated at 300w, and I used it on 3 plants in 5-gallon buckets for the time I had it (ended up having to sell the setup due to a move); it was in a 4x4 tent.

I am growing with an old school grower financing this op. So, moving to another LED that's just 30w stronger without much difference in PPFD distribution is not probably going to fly. If we have to switch lights, we'll probably switch back over to the HPS/MH lights, which cost more to run and more overall. Maybe I can convince them on the next grow.

These plants are in a room probably 15ftx15ftx9ft. They are only about 1-2ft tall right now in 3rd week of veg, and there's still probably 5ft of space above them (plus the light hang). I have been doing LST since the 2nd week, but I'm trying to just let them grow taller now that we're near the end of veg. Some articles say to do LST through the entire grow, but I think it slows down the plant.

When it comes to a lux / lumen / PAR meter, what are some good ones to look at? They've got some for like $20-$50 online.

I have the Dr. Meter (Lux Meter). It was about $30. It works great. I haven't used it in ages though. From your pics, you are at a good light height. If the leaves are praying.... you're good. That's what I go by. I pretty much go by what the leaves tell me for everything. After a couple of grows you start noticing what the leaves do for different things.

 

[Buds Buddy]

These have two fans in each of them, have been running 24-hours for 3+ weeks, and don't feel warm or have any burning electrical type smells coming out of it.

Will try to get a smoke detector in there, as it's good safety practice, but not sure these are going to blow up on me yet.

Those lights might be OK. You just never know which ones are good & which ones aren't.... Until it's too late. A Surge Protector would be a good idea also.

 

[Bill284]

These have two fans in each of them, have been running 24-hours for 3+ weeks, and don't feel warm or have any burning electrical type smells coming out of it.

Will try to get a smoke detector in there, as it's good safety practice, but not sure these are going to blow up on me yet.

I had a Bran New , right out of the box light.
It was on dead low, probably 25%.
It was very cool to the touch.
All of a sudden boom.
I was in the middle of a fire.
It happened in seconds.
With a bran new light.
Get smoke detectors and a big fire extinguisher.
Regardless of what equipment you are running.
I built a $8000.00 grow room just to avoid setting my house on fire.
I have bran new top of the line equipment.
Still don't ever want a risk like that again.





#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284

 

[Azimuth]

The SIP bucket diagram I saw on that link looked kind of like how I wanted to setup the buckets, but without the water level PVC indicator. I was going to just put a 2nd 5-gal under the main buckets to catch water, and then run it off with a drain. However, the SIP keeps it as a reservoir. So, I wonder how that works with watering and nutrients; I have to read up on it more.

On page two of the SIP thread I have a design post. Lots of ways to accomplish the design elements. Your two bucket system would be similar to the video in that post with the first bucket serving as a false floor with a connector pot (net cup or similar) serving the purpose.

I have been doing LST since the 2nd week, but I'm trying to just let them grow taller now that we're near the end of veg. Some articles say to do LST through the entire grow, but I think it slows down the plant.

I'm partial to training with Quadlining. only one topping between nodes 4 and 5 and then lst the four remaining branches to the edge of the pot and let them grow vertical. Once they reach about half way up your available flower space, flip them to flower mode.

 

[Scafidi454]

On top of that, I've been reading about NPK ratios during each stage, and I can't figure out the best way, or best nutes, to do.

I am using a 12-6-6 GROW forumula now, which requires "1-3tsp/gal" every 7-10 days. When I test the ppm after adding it to the gallon of water, it's around 500. Some guides I've seen say to be around 1000ppm during veg/late veg. So, I've tried 6tsp/gal, which was about 1100ppm, and accidentally fed them that twice in a few day period. However, I let them sit and flushed them a few days for about 10 days total before re-watering with nutes. When I did, I moved it down to 800ppm (~3tsp/gal). However, I have that bleaching / burning going on some of the plants.

Since then, I've stopped watering often (going to wait for them to get pretty dry), to see if that could be the issue as well.

We have some GeneralHydroponics FloraNova Bloom and Grow, but they are a couple of years old. The ratios are still not what I'd expect to see, but I've heard some good things. Someone told me, and research somewhat confirmed, that nutrients do go bad after 6mo-2yrs.

So, yesterday we got this GP3 base nutrient package, mainly because there was limited variety at this grow shop, and were told that we should use the GROW (2-1-6), BLOOM (0-5-4), and MICRO (5-0-1) altogether in each stage. I don't know if that's right, but I was just going to try VEG/MICRO then BLOOM/MICRO. Feeding guide

What are some good supplements/brands to add in either veg or bloom for better buds? The grow store said sugar and P-K booster.

 

[Azimuth]

If you want simple and very effective nutes that work with most non-hydro mixes, Geoflora nutes are something you should consider.

Couple those with a SIP bucket, a decent light and extraction fan set-up and that's pretty much all you'll need.

Applying the Geoflora is as simple as topdressing every two weeks or so.

 

[Scafidi454]

I had a Bran New , right out of the box light.
It was on dead low, probably 25%.
It was very cool to the touch.
All of a sudden boom.
I was in the middle of a fire.
It happened in seconds.
With a bran new light.
Get smoke detectors and a big fire extinguisher.
Regardless of what equipment you are running.
I built a $8000.00 grow room just to avoid setting my house on fire.
I have bran new top of the line equipment.
Still don't ever want a risk like that again.





#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284

I'm sorry to hear about that. I am praying for the best on this one.

The financer of this project would likely spend that type of money, if they wanted to, but they're stuck in their ways.

They've been just putting clones under an HPS and never switching it, leaving it on 24-hrs, growing plants that are too tall for the room and sparse, don't spend any time researching beyond asking for a recommendation at the grow store, and think they grow the best shit around. They don't cure, and their buds are usually crispy/dry, kind of fluffy/sparse, and don't really get me high (I smoke dabs daily now for years). I can get better weed at the dispo for less overall smoking all year.

So, I'm trying to work with them. They wanted to lower the energy bill on this one. So, we decided to try this.
I have grown outdoor plants I swear netted a LB or more, but I never weighed it up (another project for another financer). The only issue is the growing time.