Breeding For Seeds: Hybrid Vigour Vs Stabilizing The Strain

Re: Landrace Genetics 101

Ok, my goal when I bought all of these plants that date 12/04/14 or after was to learn how to grow some different types of plants. Even so the SLH and Blue Dream were to be used as standards that I have grown before and after I was legal.

As it is I have some nice genetics that are not realistically going to see a flower room six months to a year from now.

I would like to top out at 15 gal pots with no time frame on keeping the plants as long as they are a manageable size.

I am most interested in the Durban, KK, MK Ultra, Sage and Sour, and especially the King Tut because it has AK 47 genetics.

These are all very sick plants that have survived some real bad times. They want to live and I want the clones.

I have a few others that are in seed form or smaller clones of other plants. The most prominent is Satori and Mandala #1 as seeds.

It is about all I can handle. However I would like to keep what I can.

The good news is these that I have are not going to finish out at their fullest and for the most part are not that large of plants by nature.

I also have plenty of larger good plants that I have grown for several years and a Scot's that is new that I have already flowered with a total time to final trim finish at 250 days.

I know that there are only 3 that can be considered land race and that they are not ones that are covered here. I still think this is the best place for info on these plants.

Best
canyon

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Re: Landrace Genetics 101

Hey Folks..Good reading...Seems like you guys know your seeds !!I am trying my luck with a breeding program this year.... I got some Timewarp seeds from BC as they are spossed to be a good grow in the Great NothWet (West),I let one male grow (Tommy) so I won't need any more TimeWarp seeds for awhile.... and i grew some Berry Bomb cross Hash Bomb that has finished up this week !!! nice early birds. My question is...As I'm trimming I come across one or two single mature seeds on a branch. They are in dry brown "pods" and very dark and all by them selfs and way ahead of the rest.. Would these seeds be better than the ones in clusters ? Or does it matter.A dark seed is as good as it gets? Hope I'm making sense here....I'm just after a mold resistant, early bird that is A GREAT Smoke !!haha..Easy as that ,Thanks Red......Now as I think about it i have found other early seeds... I have a Strawberry/Blue going and it too had very early ,all by its self seeds . They were where the stem meets the main trunk.One dry ,brown seed pod with a dark seed inside,Think I found 5 or 6 of them...Again are these better than the rest ?
 
Re: Landrace Genetics 101

SR,

I am familiar with what you are talking about. They are from the first hairs that show sex on a plant. I have always treated them as some form of stress or something like that that germinated in late vege stage. As you have observed, they tend to be some of the most mature. If I keep any seeds from a plant I tend to keep those. I can't say why though.

Best I can do.
canyon
 
Re: Landrace Genetics 101

Hey Canyon,I know what you mean, They just look better. And being the first, brown and dry ones ....mabey they are the strongest ones haha..who knows..I'll go with it till I hear different.Any more thoughts out there ? Whats up with these "First born" seeds.... Red
 
Re: Landrace Genetics 101

SR,
Are you intentionally pollinating, or are those seeds just spontaneously growing? Are you working with pollen or mature males? Do your plants have hermie tendencies? If you're not pollinating and the plants aren't going hermie, then you have either transferred pollen to them somehow or likely have a close neighbor that is open pollinating....or maybe a hemp seed farm in the area.

As far as being more potent? In terms of germination success, probably. Plump dark seeds are the best. In terms of end product THC/CBD potency? No way to know until you grow it. It depends on the specific alleles that made up that seeds genes. Luck of the draw...a roll of the bones so to speak.
 
MedFarmer,

This is interesting stuff. I have corresponded with at least three here just by reading the first two pages and skimming the rest.

The very short story is I have 16 strains of mostly hybrid medical cannabis in a state that allows 16 plants.

Even that is not entirely true. I have two Super Lemon Haze plants that are from cuttings from two dispensaries. One I have grown continuously from mid 2012. The other I bought 12/4/14. The plants were probably from the same commercial grow around Jan 2011. That is not for sure although probably so.

While I tell you these plants are both sick, let me ask you my first question. Is it even worth keeping both?

I have a post with a chart over at conradino23's place that I would like to just move over here. While we have parted as friends on that thread I certainly can see that it will eventually become an irritant to him.

Even that can wait until,................well

Best, Everyone
canyon
 
Re #81,

Two joints before breakfast and sometimes you only think I have done lots of things.

I forgot to add that all of these plants are safe to assume are from clones from before 2011 So probably I would be only looking at what ever around 6 generations of clones could do. That is something I know even less than I do about breeding.

Best
canyon
 
""and especially the King Tut because it has AK 47 genetics.""

I do not think that means the same thing as 'They are the same'.

Some where near the beginning, someone referenced them that way. I do have a stake in what is correct.

I do have a variety of plants that some would envy and they are not in good shape.

Just from what I have observed so far there has to be some crosses here that are worth perusing.

I have a chart that I have already proven will not copy directly over to here. I will add in or make a newer one if there is some interest.

Best and Thanks
canyon
 
Canyon said:
""and especially the King Tut because it has AK 47 genetics.""

I do not think that means the same thing as 'They are the same'.

Some where near the beginning, someone referenced them that way. I do have a stake in what is correct.

I do have a variety of plants that some would envy and they are not in good shape.

Just from what I have observed so far there has to be some crosses here that are worth perusing.

I have a chart that I have already proven will not copy directly over to here. I will add in or make a newer one if there is some interest.

Best and Thanks
canyon
Click to expand...


I'd be interested
 
I still need to back up and read the first four pages because Canyon's link from Llama's took me to the end, but guys, you got me already. I need to learn it and I adore the crowd, so yeah, count me in.

I know the first four pages are probably going to fry my brain, but I'll read through. Be back. :hug:'
 
Whew! All caught up. I may even understand what's going on. Excellent contributing to this thread. Subbed for sure.
 
Hybrid vigor vs stabilization(homogenous plants)

It all depends on ones needs and desires. If a gardener is growing for personal smoke and not selling commercial then hybrid vigor would be desirable. For developing a new strain, you want to stabilize it over successive generations to obtain the same results each time it grows. This is necessary for a strain to be commercially viable. It takes a long time to stabilize a strain, that's why so many strains are clone only. (Usually the result of an accidental cross that results in a spectacular female) Other strains available in femmed seed only usually are made by chemically reversing a female and pollinating another female.*



Now, in my less than humble opinion, the best of all worlds is to grow your plants from seeds, select the best male to pollinate your girls and go from there. The homogenization occurs several generations down the line when your plants all exhibit the same traits.

Back to hybrid vigor. I smoke lots of f1 hybrids. They are usually great producers and the smoke is generally top notch. They are great for growers of any experience level as they usually very easy to grow to harvest and are generally problem free. Commercial growers and retailers need to be more concerned with name brands and bag appeal

* I will be feminizing the Malawi Gold in a couple of months. (Reversing a female with colloidal silver and pollinating another females with the resulting pollen. The MG is a stable landrace strain so the females already exhibit the similar traits.
 
Heirloom,

I did not intend to step on you in the header. When I spotted it well after I had posted to the thread, that bit of irritation with how things were going I just left there.

That is true, the point is, it was well intended. NP for me, though I would rather not have started here in this way. I can see where it may not be what MedFarmer wants.

I was and still am somewhat concerned that you and some others were not aware that your post had been moved.

So...about that hybrid vigor vs. stabilizing.....

CBS (Cal Bag Seed) It is somewhat harsh. I grew it from a seed, I cloned it and kept a few seeds. I have a few seeds from other plants , and a few from dispensaries.



IMG_20150124_205033.jpg


From#85
"SR,
Are you intentionally pollinating, or are those seeds just spontaneously growing? Are you working with pollen or mature males? Do your plants have hermie tendencies? If you're not pollinating and the plants aren't going hermie, then you have either transferred pollen to them somehow or likely have a close neighbor that is open pollinating....or maybe a hemp seed farm in the area."


My answer would be. Other than the CBS which is a wild card, it acutely came from a coffee table in a home lounge. (Top shelf Cal.)

intentionally pollinating? No
spontaneously growing? Yes
working with pollen? No
mature males? No
hermie tendencies? No

The rest of that statement I really don't think apples, though I admit stray pollen could at least be part of the problem and could complicate things.

I have assumed that especially the ones found as single seeds at the crouch of a branch were from stress in the late stage of vege. and were self pollinated in vege or early flower.

While I have had seed problems (problems?) these for some reason I have thought they were a better bet that they would be like ther mother.

I usually toss any seeds I get in the trash to keep the temptation down. I don't always win. Though, I have gone as long as two years without finding one.

I really know next to nothing about breeding but I can fallow a chart. Where I need help is in deciding what is possible with what I have to breed with. It is actually a good variety.

I am up against my limit on plants and have to get at least two clones going just to keep what I have. My wife is more than qualified for a card that would give me 16 more plants and no more space. Maybe next year on that.

As of now I have no pollen.

I have lots of specific questions that I would like to get to in no real order or any rush.

Best, and thanks for the reply,
canyon
 
I tried every method other than isolation and there is no trick to getting pollen wherever. I only work at breeding one strain at a time so I let the pollen fly. I often have other strains that get pollinated as 'collateral ' damage but I don't worry about a few seeds in my personal smoke.

As soon as my Swiss Cheese are ready I will be making feminized seeds with this strain too. I'll do a pictorial on how I do it, Canyon. I won't be breeding these with a male as it is a stabilized commercial strain with either sex readily available. I'm just making feminized seeds cause I'm too cheap to pay 10-15 bucks a seed.
 
This from a post of Hash Hound's here.

"so far I have used a male Querkle to pollinate female seeded plants of Tutankhamen (AK47)"

It is my understanding that Tutankhamen and King Tut are the same plant and have mostly AK47 genetics. I do not think AK47 is the same as the ones that have Kingly names. The origins' of commercial seeds appear to be limited to one company if I remember what I think I remember.

I have the one called King Tut and I can see the value of having an IBL AK47.

Clones from dispensaries are kind of grab what you can get here. There is some AK47 on the medical market at times. There is a fare chance I can pick up a clone sometime.

Best
canyon
 
Though legal, the closest dispensary to me is an hour drive. If I buy from a dispensary, they are required to be my caregiver. Then I can't grow. I have no access to clones and I live 50 miles from town. I feel that 10-15 bucks a seed is a ridicules price to pay for one seed when it is so easy to make your own. I kind of wonder about the authenticity of strains when we purchase them from seed banks.

AK47 has been around for a long time and seeds are readily available. If you want AK47 seeds just buy a packet of regular seeds and breed them. That strain has been stabilized for years so starting with an IBL at this time seems pointless.
 
Llama,

Nod on 10 to 15 for seeds.

Flying pollen could give me nightmares though. My wife may draw the line at buying a tent and setting it up in a bedroom just to finish out a plant. With some thought I could set up something small in another part of the garage and kind of keep the area misted.

From what I remember from the few males I have handled there is only about a week that pollen is really an issue and I probably could keep one for that long on the patio.

You are happy with what you have for seeds and are happy with a few wild cards. I have plants with lots of traits that I can trace the genetics of most. I need to preserve the integrity of what I have. I want to cross some known traits with the hope of winding up with something better.

The fun is in the trying.
canyon
 

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