Do I need to adjust pH with General Organics?

[Sofa King]

Soooooo, this is my second grow and am not real happy again with with plants. I have always been very diligent to correct pH. I did some more research and i now see that the GO feeding schedules say YOU DO NOT NEED TO ADJUST pH! I am pretty much using the Go box and have always added 'pH up' to 6.3-6.7 . I now read in other forums and some say that isn't necessary in a soil grow. I am growing in FFOF using clean RO water. When i add the nutes according to the manufacturer schedule, my pH drops to like 5.3 . Does anyone know if this is ok to feed without adding anything else for pH???

 

[fanleaf]

Soooooo, this is my second grow and am not real happy again with with plants. I have always been very diligent to correct pH. I did some more research and i now see that the GO feeding schedules say YOU DO NOT NEED TO ADJUST pH! I am pretty much using the Go box and have always added 'pH up' to 6.3-6.7 . I now read in other forums and some say that isn't necessary in a soil grow. I am growing in FFOF using clean RO water. When i add the nutes according to the manufacturer schedule, my pH drops to like 5.3 . Does anyone know if this is ok to feed without adding anything else for pH???

If they say Do not adjust the pH then don't adjust the pH. They probably chelate there nutrients with Organic salts / acids so they can uptake at a wide PH range. By adding ph up or pH Down you are just adding unnecessary salts into the soil.

 

[Dwight Monk]

I always adjusted my PH with that, as my house water is around 7.5 and the filtered stuff from the machine at the Store is around 5.5. I'm in the middle of changing nutrients from that line though, but I don't have any experience with not adjusting the PH for a comparison. I'm in Vermisoil no idea if that any different than what you got going.

 

[MassMedMan]

I don't PH. I run RX Green Technologies currently and I know it's a very low PH after I mix it. I checked it once a long time ago.
But, my meter is broken, so, I don't PH.

And,,, MOST importantly, I grow healthy plants.

I use a basic water filter currently, but for a long time used RO. And, I didn't PH.

That being said, I've never had problems.

So, it's not that unusual.

I've run other lines and it's important to hit a number, House and Garden for example. But, not all lines require it and fanleaf hit on why.

If they say don't PH, don't do it. It'll seem weird for a while or until your first harvest like that.

 

[Sofa King]

Thanks for the advice team. I was worried with not pHing because I run ro. My well water has about 1500ppm dissolved solids so I am going to add 20% to my ro water to get about 300-400 ppm. This will help to add microbials maybe? I am just starting to learn about this whole organic business...
I read that adding as much pH up that I have been will kill my soil and the organic are pretty much pointless at that point

 

[fanleaf]

Thanks for the advice team. I was worried with not pHing because I run ro. My well water has about 1500ppm dissolved solids so I am going to add 20% to my ro water to get about 300-400 ppm. This will help to add microbials maybe? I am just starting to learn about this whole organic business...
I read that adding as much pH up that I have been will kill my soil and the organic are pretty much pointless at that point

1500ppm for well water is quite extreme! I would pay a few bucks to have a test ran to see what is in my water if it was that high. RO water is pH neutral for the most part. Just like distilled water, you cant really get an accurate reading from a pH pen simply because the reading you get will be dictated by air (co2) that will absorb into the water and change the pH reading simply because the water is so pure the pH will change that easily. What are you going to add 20% of?

 

[Sofa King]

1500ppm for well water is quite extreme! I would pay a few bucks to have a test ran to see what is in my water if it was that high. RO water is pH neutral for the most part. Just like distilled water, you cant really get an accurate reading from a pH pen simply because the reading you get will be dictated by air (co2) that will absorb into the water and change the pH reading simply because the water is so pure the pH will change that easily. What are you going to add 20% of?

I am going to mix 20% of my well water (from before the softener) into my ro water to get some living ingredients in my water. Bad idea? I would love to not pH and let the organic do their thing

 

[fanleaf]

I am going to mix 20% of my well water (from before the softener) into my ro water to get some living ingredients in my water. Bad idea? I would love to not pH and let the organic do their thing

I don't know that I would go with 20%. Depending on what is in your well water it can definitely have a bad effect on nutrient uptake. 1500ppm makes me very suspect that there are very high concentrations of a few unknown minerals. I think you would be MUCH better off using a cut of spring water or rainwater (best option) because the rainwater does have living microbes in it along with MANY beneficial micronutrients.
If your well water contains a huge amount of Calcium for instance it CAN interfere with your organic nutrients building up and eventually creating a nutrient lockout issue. I will elaborate on this more in detail as soon as I finish working.

 

[fanleaf]

From the Rev
City water, well water and spring water all have some potentially bad things in common. Often, they are hard, which means they contain a lot of dissolved Magnesium and Calcium, etc. And yours is 1500ppm of something. This type of water will accumulate salts (Magnesium, Calcium etc) around the roots Rhizosphere altering the pH drastically over the coarse of a month or two and making the area inhabitable to some of the key micro organisms and really mess with mycorrhizal fungus, so then things like phosphorus can tend to lock out in the soil mix without myco fungi. River and stream water is usually good to use but you should check that the ppm is 100 or less first.

Well water is tricky. Plants may thrive in 150ppm well water but on the flipside plants may struggle with different well water that only comes in at 80ppm. If the well water has too much iron, Magnesium, manganese or sulphur or any combination of those you could be in trouble.

Bottom line
My advace would be that it's fine to cut in some of your 1500ppm well water but maybe do it only where it brings you up to about 70-90ppm or so just to be safe. This should be plenty to get some benefits from your well water.

 

[fanleaf]

I have never heard of 1500ppm water before so I gave it a quick look. Here is something interesting I found..

"A reading of ppm of 1469 is way off the chart for healthy consumption, you should call appropiate institution in your country, your well is probably contaminated if you’re drinking this, stop immediatly. I don’t want to see alarmist, here’s a copy / paste of the section in wikipedia that is treating of the subject, good luck

Health considerations
The World Health Organization says that “there does not appear to be any convincing evidence that water hardness causes adverse health effects in humans”. In fact, the United States National Research Council has found that hard water can actually serve as a dietary supplement for calcium and magnesium.

Some studies have shown a weak inverse relationship between water hardness and cardiovascular disease in men, up to a level of 170 mg calcium carbonate per litre of water. The World Health Organization has reviewed the evidence and concluded the data was inadequate to allow for a recommendation for a level of hardness.

Recommendations have been made for the maximum and minimum levels of calcium (40–80 ppm) and magnesium (20–30 ppm) in drinking water, and a total hardness expressed as the sum of the calcium and magnesium concentrations of 2–4 mmol/L.

Other studies have shown weak correlations between cardiovascular health and water hardness.

Some studies correlate domestic hard water usage with increased eczema in children.
The Softened-Water Eczema Trial (SWET), a multicenter randomized controlled trial of ion-exchange softeners for treating childhood eczema, was undertaken in 2008. However, no meaningful difference in symptom relief was found between children with access to a home water softener and those without."

 

[Sofa King]

I have never heard of 1500ppm water before so I gave it a quick look. Here is something interesting I found..

"A reading of ppm of 1469 is way off the chart for healthy consumption, you should call appropiate institution in your country, your well is probably contaminated if you’re drinking this, stop immediatly. I don’t want to see alarmist, here’s a copy / paste of the section in wikipedia that is treating of the subject, good luck

Health considerations
The World Health Organization says that “there does not appear to be any convincing evidence that water hardness causes adverse health effects in humans”.[1] In fact, the United States National Research Council has found that hard water can actually serve as a dietary supplement for calcium and magnesium.

Some studies have shown a weak inverse relationship between water hardness and cardiovascular disease in men, up to a level of 170 mg calcium carbonate per litre of water. The World Health Organization has reviewed the evidence and concluded the data was inadequate to allow for a recommendation for a level of hardness.

Recommendations have been made for the maximum and minimum levels of calcium (40–80 ppm) and magnesium (20–30 ppm) in drinking water, and a total hardness expressed as the sum of the calcium and magnesium concentrations of 2–4 mmol/L.

Other studies have shown weak correlations between cardiovascular health and water hardness.

Some studies correlate domestic hard water usage with increased eczema in children.

The Softened-Water Eczema Trial (SWET), a multicenter randomized controlled trial of ion-exchange softeners for treating childhood eczema, was undertaken in 2008. However, no meaningful difference in symptom relief was found between children with access to a home water softener and those without."

Thanks I really appreciate your replies. I will see if i can dig up the water test that was done when we bought the place or i think that i will send a new sample in. Thanks again for the valuable information.
I have a cheap TDS meter but again it read 1500ppm before the softener and 1650ppm after. I know that it is very hard water so i will have to come up with a plan or switch nutrients and just run straight RO still.

 

[HydroponicFireman]

RO water isnt ideal for mixing nutrients in. If you want to use RO, add calmag a few hundred ppm first then nutes. Or use mineral water or add epsom salt.

 

[Goddesslifela]

Nice thread. Very useful to me. I am also using general organics

 

[fanleaf]

RO is one of the best waters to use.

 

[Conradino23]

I’ll just drop my few pennies of advice. I’ve never used RO and never had any problems. I use tap water, rain water and spring water and they all perform very well, but I prefer spring water from a torrent nearby because it has higher cation count, which is exactly what you want.

Over the years I’ve seen many people using RO and they’ve all had problems, because their plants were running out of calcium and magnesium by mid flowering. This is very common issue, which can be fixed though by using a soil mix with proper Ca:Mg ratio and good CEC. Then I believe RO can be used, but otherwise it’s only good in hydro.

By this point we know very well that ignoring calcium and magnesium needs of cannabis and their antagonistic interaction is a huge source of problems. Another one is antagonism between potassium and calcium. And if you don’t fix both, you’ll never had a painless grow.

Unfortunately this can’t be done by tossing random amounts of ingredients and cooking. Your mix has to be tested and then optimised to get the perfect ratio.

 

[fanleaf]

And I'll drop my few cents worth as well. I didn't always use RO water. I used tap water when I started growing and always had nothing but problems. You see, my water has a pretty high dissolved solids count and those solids have a very very strong pH buffering affect on my tap water as well. Long story short, RO water has been the answer to all of my problems.
Now, I couldn't care less what the cation count is (or isn't) in my RO water. My soil is built to have a great CEC and that's whats important. You see, 99% of growers have a cal mag supplement on hand and usually use them on the regular. Who knows what the ratios of elements are in their tap or even spring water, some do but most of us don't.

We also know that nutrients must stay within correct ratios otherwise buildups of one can lead to lockout of others. Mulders Chart shows us the importance of that. We also know that most cal mag products have a healthy Calcium to Magnesium ratio of around 5:1 or 6:1.

So, why is RO water a great way to go? It's simple, unless you have testing ran on your spring, lake tap or river water you dont really know whats in it. If your tap water contains 150ppm of magnesium and 40 parts of Calcium then guess what? That soil you built with a 6:1 ratio of Calcium to Mag will slowly be screwed up by 150ppm Magnesium and its really quite that simple. RO water gives the grower full control.

Every single grower I have ever seen growing using RO water fully understands and knows that they will need Calcium and Magnesium. So the whole trend I am seeing lately with people saying "RO sucks because CalMag issues arise" is totally bunk. I would much rather add the proper 5:1 or 6:1 ratio of Calcium and Magnesium then to add a water that I don't know the breakdown of and screw up the nutrient ratios.

Most tap water is hard water too
For those with hard water they will understand the water scale that builds up in their coffee pots and faucets is quite noticeable.
So, do you think that same scale buildup don't happen in your soil? Of coarse it does, that's mineral salts slowly building up in your soil that kill air flow, dehydrating microorganisms slowly building up through your soil and eventually lock up the roots rhizosphere. Sound like fun?


Distilled and rainwater are perfect for the grower who understands that plants need Calcium and Magnesium and if your grow medium don't carry enough of it then you will need a supplement.

Again, even the most unexperienced growers usually have a cal mag suppliment on hand and if they don't, they should.

 

[Conradino23]

Well yeah if they don’t have enough cal and mg then they have to use an additive. I’m just saying that if your soil is perfectly balanced you’d have to have seriously heavy water to screw it up. It never happened to me, but who knows it might happen in some cases.

 

[HydroponicFireman]

Well, I never said RO is bad, I just said not ideal. In fact, I even gave a way to use it properly.

Maybe I shouldn't have assumed you didn't know about using CalMag but I have heard a lot of people using RO water and getting problems. They had issues with hard faucet water and not understanding about what plants want in water, figure that they'll get water with nothing in it and solve all their problems...but that doesn't work either.

I use filtered tap water to mix nutrients in and it works just fine for me. I use old drinking water pitcher filters (Brita, Zero Water, etc) which works perfect for me because it leaves a few hundred of PPM of leftovers in there due to being old filters which provides good buffering for the nutrient solution and saves a bunch of money and time.