just thought i'd pop in before someone goes over the top about sip buckets ... 
Do we need to pH adjust our nutrient solutions?
- Thread starter InTheShed
- Start date
Peat Phreak
Well-Known Member
This graph is from a recent study at Humboldt U. They grew wheat in soil. Control group was NOT treated with citric acid. The other groups received different amounts of citric acid. Citric acid lowered the soil pH across the board.
Per Bill Argo, PhD, Blackmore Company (does a lot of work with Michigan State University). The ammonium content for a stable substrate pH should be 23% for liquid fertilizers if the source water is 75-150 ppm of CaCO3. So 15% is under that number and I would expect the substrate pH would rise over time. I believe the recommendation that @InTheShed got from Pro-Mix (Premier Tech) on using a high ammoniacal nitrogen fertilizer to reduce substrate pH was something closer to a 50/50 blend. So to state that doing it that way will not work is a bit misleading considering that you didn't apply enough to get the desired result. If you don't want to use that much ammoniacal nitrogen (you wouldn't be alone here), and have a system that works for you, then by all means continue.
Peat Phreak
Well-Known Member
Too much ammonium can reduce THC. I'm all about growing dat fiya. That is one of the reasons why I don't want to use more than 15%. The other reason is I would have to use another ingredient to supplement calcium. It's a more complicated formula.
I will try 25% ammonium on some 1 gallon throw-away plants to see if that controls my media pH. Even if it does, I probably won't use that method for growing weed. It would be good for growing Azaleas tho.
I will try 25% ammonium on some 1 gallon throw-away plants to see if that controls my media pH. Even if it does, I probably won't use that method for growing weed. It would be good for growing Azaleas tho.
Just to add some source material...
"...moderate levels of 10-30% NH4 are suitable for medical cannabis cultivation, as they do not damage plant function and show only little adverse influence on yield and cannabinoid production. Higher NH4/NO3 ratios, containing above 30% NH4, are not recommended since they increase the potential for a severe and fatal NH4 toxicity damage."
Diatomacious
Well-Known Member
Media pH or runoff? If you are adding ammonia you are adding poison to your plants.
It's the main reason for peoples "I can't breathe" syndrome. That's where science has gotten us.
Peat Phreak
Well-Known Member
Both were tested. Both were lower. The numbers quoted refer to media pH.
Diatomacious
Well-Known Member
NH4 works like CN in the body. It prevents the oxygen from bonding with the blood in the lung. A reduced dosage does not make it safe. This is how it kills cells in the body causing people so many problems, by asphyxiation.
Peat Phreak
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is the study I was thinking of.
"Suitable" and "show only little adverse influence on yield and cannabinoid production" is a scientific admission of falling short of growing the fiya on account of ammonium.
Peat Phreak
Well-Known Member
It's clear you are not a fan of ammonium. I don't use more than 5% routinely.
Peat Phreak
Well-Known Member
And if anyone ever tries a heavy duty citric acid flush and
- doesn't get similar results
- kills their plants
- hurts their plants
- goes blind because of acid splashing in both eyes
I'm not sure what to tell you other than "I'm sorry, but it worked for me several times".
- doesn't get similar results
- kills their plants
- hurts their plants
- goes blind because of acid splashing in both eyes
I'm not sure what to tell you other than "I'm sorry, but it worked for me several times".
Diatomacious
Well-Known Member
As little as 10 ppm of ammonia in the fertilizer solution is enough to trigger feelings of difficulty breathing in me when smoked or eaten. Studies I have read quote 1 ppm as enough to damage aquatic life... I'm sure less is more than enough to kill single celled organisms like phytoplankton and diatoms in the ocean. There goes earths oxygen, here comes hole in the ozone and global warming.
Anhydrous Ammonia and Ammonium Nitrate are different, although both can be used as a fertilizer.
Diatomacious
Well-Known Member
Any ammonia is a poison. Whether anhydrous ammonia, ammonia nitrate, ammonia phosphate or even the small amount of ammonia typically found in calcium nitrate. Ammonia is ammonia once dissolved in solution, it becomes an ion separate from the rest of the molecule.
Diatomacious
Well-Known Member
Yes it can be used as a fertilizer, the plant will use ammonia nitrogen if present in the soil. Plants will also use radioactive cesium in place of potassium when present in the soil, bikini atoll atomic test. Doesn't make it healthy for animals.
"Ammonia is un-ionized, and has the formula NH3. Ammonium is ionized, and has the formula NH4+. The major factor that determines the proportion of ammonia or ammonium in water is water pH. The activity of ammonia also is influenced by temperature and ionic strength. This is important as the unionized NH3 is the form that can be toxic to aquatic organisms. The ionized NH4 is basically harmless to aquatic organisms."
SOURCE -Iowa State University
Diatomacious
Well-Known Member
This is the ammonia that caused me grief after harvest. I'm sure NH3 is toxic as well, firefighters need special training to respond to anhydrous ammonia incidents. The main difference between NH3 and NH4 is NH3 is a gas and NH4 is a liquid form of ammonia. It is not harmless I can assure you, I've verified this with my own grow.
Diatomacious
Well-Known Member
What happens when NH3 is dissolved in water?
The dissolving of ammonia in water forms a basic solution. A small amount of the dissolved ammonia reacts with water to form ammonium hydroxide, which dissociates into ammonium and hydroxide ions. All of these processes are reversible. For both reactions, heating the system favors the reverse direction.Note the reversible.
Source What happens when NH3 is dissolved in water? - Studybuff
Firefighters need training for Ammonium Nitrate too. Highly explosive (see Oklahoma City bombing). I too am familiar with how bad the NH3 gas is. Opened up the refrigerator in our motor home and was overcome by Ammonia gas (NH3) from a ruptured line. Could not see, could not breathe. Luckily I found the door and fell out on the ground. I'm sure if it were 30 seconds to a minute more I would have been dead. I laid there choking and coughing for a while. Had to have been a good 5 minutes. Terrible experience.
To kinda put a wrap on this so we can get the thread back on topic. I'm not advocating for high levels of Ammoniacal Nitrogen. It's been shown that higher levels can reduce THC, stem elongation, decreased yield, and is an environmental pollutant. Some of the same can be said about excessive P. I've proven you can grow 11oz auto using as little as 19ppm P throughout the grow. 30ppm is ample and anything over 50 is straight polluting the waterways with the excess. It has been shown to be a contributor in Red Tides. There's no need for these crazy "bloom boosters" that are like 10-50-20. Bottom line, no need to go overboard with anything. Use as little Ammoniacal Nitrogen as you can get away with. Many cannabis nutes are already very low in that source. The same cannot be said about Miracle Grow and some of the lower end Jacks products. Mainly Nitrate Nitrogen can drive up the substrate pH if you have higher alkalinity water. If you decide to use the Ammoniacal Nitrogen method of correcting high pH, do so no longer than required. That's what @InTheShed does. It's just a few waterings before he's back to base and using his primarily Nitrate Nitrogen fertilizer again. Don't use excessive P products either. They're a waste of money and doing nothing but pollute. Know what you're feeding your plants and why if using synthetic nutes (a term I hate but will use at this juncture because it's commonly accepted).
I'll climb off my soapbox now.
I'll climb off my soapbox now.
