Do we need to pH adjust our nutrient solutions?

[Diatomacious]

But if your soil was out of ph wouldn’t it show with your plants not being able to use the nutes?

In the extreme it will show. Plants will adapt to a wide variety of soil pH if you give them a week or two. For soil-less a pH in the range of 5.5 to 6 works best (I prefer 6 on the dot) but I've had good luck growing with a pH of 7 so there is more to it than pH such as nutrient concentration.

It takes 0.5 to 1.5 oz (14,000 to 42,000 mg)of lime per gallon of peat based mix to achieve a pH of 6. It only takes about 100 mg of calcium carbonate in order for my nutrient mix to achieve a pH of 6. That is why peat buffers so well.

 

[InTheShed]

Anyone who tells you it is safe to eat and smoke is lying. This is from personal experience growing my own. Nitrate nitrogen will not give this effect.

Are you talking about ammonia or ammonium?

It's the real reason organic food is so much better for you than chemical. The soil microbes will process the ammonia and convert it into a safe form of nitrogen.

Since the soil microbes convert the ammoniacal nitrogen into a safe form, what's wrong with using it if you need to? No one in hydro need to use ammoniacal N and shouldn't. They also pH adjust their nutes.

So it appears that you now agree input pH can influence the media pH. I call that making progress.

Lose the sarcasm "boss." Given your education it seems like you should be better at this. But I'll give you a bit more of my time.

If you mix up a bunch of nutes and the resulting pH is 7 there is no need to lower it before feeding. That's "input pH" and that's the point of this thread. You're just looking for an argument based on some self-centered idea of what we're talking about in this thread.

You can have high pH water without high alkaline content and high alkaline content without a high pH. If you read the opening post it says: "It is the alkalinity of nutrient water and the potential acidity/basicity of the fertilizer(s) that influence the pH of the growing medium and root zone."

If you have highly alkaline water then eventually you might need to lower the pH of the substrate, more likely in peat mixes than in soil. You can do that with sulfuric acid if that's something you feel comfortable with, but it's not necessary to acidify your medium with every watering, only when it's out of range and until it's back in range.

Therefore it's not necessary to pH adjust your nutes. Feel free to do it obviously, but the title of this thread is "do we need to pH adjust..." and the answer is no. No one said "never pH adjust..."

And consider the grower who is adding acid to their nutes every time who doesn't have highly alkaline water. They could end up lowering the pH of their medium out of range with every watering, and will see the resulting toxicities.

And yes you did make false assumptions about my education.

I didn't but you're obviously hung up on your credentials.

Did you ignore the post where I did not adjust pH? The pH got too high at the end. Deficiencies occurred. The rest of my grows with the same water and same nutes with adjusted pH turned out great. So I continue to acidify my water.

I did not ignore it. You allowed the pH of your substrate to rise out of an acceptable range and ignored it and your plants suffered. Don't do that.

As stated in the opening post:
"It is more important to keep track of the pH of the growing medium than the pH of the nutrient solution we feed the plants."

You failed in that task and your plants suffered. Phat oof!

I'm telling that you shifting my nitrate to ammonium ratio is not something I'm willing to do.

As I have mentioned, that's one way to lower the pH of your medium if it gets too high for growing. Using acid is another. Either way, it only becomes necessary when it does. High nitrate fertilizers and high alkaline content will both increase the pH of the medium over time (sooner in peat mixes than soil) and might need to be dealt with during the course of the grow.

Promix says acidifying the water is totally normal.

Yes, in an article that recommends the following method:
"It is best to inject acid directly from a concentrate barrel into the irrigation line so there is no handling."
Sound like folks growing on this site?

The study he posted said soilless.

Soilless is what is considered peat mixes such as ProMix or Sunshine Mix #4.

After some further research, it turns out Dr Bruce Bugbee agrees with everything I said here.
He uses nutes AND acid to control the media pH of peat. How about that?
And he definitely thinks pH matters. According to Dr. Bruce Bugbee:

pH matters, as Dr Bugbee shows, in the growing medium. He knows that his tap water is high in bicarbonate content, so they test leachate to monitor pH of the medium to make sure it's not out of range even with the acid they use.

With that, I shall rest my case. There is nothing that can be said or linked that will refute my position.

Fair 'nuff.

i'm sure you can. there's never a problem until there is.

And if there is a problem there are ways to solve it, like most problems encountered in growing. If you believe that adding acid to water for buffered media is a good way to keep the pH of that medium pH in range, how do you know you're not lowering it out of range without knowing the alkaline content of your water and monitoring the pH of you media?

As I have said, feel free to pH your nutes for a buffered medium, but feel free not to.

Is that a fair comparison for my mind in relation to the lime that is added to many media?

"Lime will neutralize this acidity by dissolving, whereupon it releases a base into the soil solution that reacts with the acidic components, hydrogen and aluminum."
Source

Eventually that ability wears out, and since it's the only thing keeping the pH of peat mixes in check, they are more prone to pH swings. The organic matter in soil itself acts as a buffer, giving it much greater stability, which is why I went back to soil.

But if your soil was out of ph wouldn’t it show with your plants not being able to use the nutes?

It would, but the odds are better that there is something else going on, like you're over-feeding it phosphorus or potassium in flower. The only way to know if your plant has a pH problem is by testing the soil not reading the leaves. More plants will have disaster bite them in the ass in flower from following nute myths and force-feeding them what they don't need than a medium with the wrong pH. And testing that pH is easy.

 

[CaptainLucky]

Are you talking about ammonia or ammonium?

Since the soil microbes convert the ammoniacal nitrogen into a safe form, what's wrong with using it if you need to? No one in hydro need to use ammoniacal N and shouldn't. They also pH adjust their nutes.

Lose the sarcasm "boss." Given your education it seems like you should be better at this. But I'll give you a bit more of my time.

If you mix up a bunch of nutes and the resulting pH is 7 there is no need to lower it before feeding. That's "input pH" and that's the point of this thread. You're just looking for an argument based on some self-centered idea of what we're talking about in this thread.

You can have high pH water without high alkaline content and high alkaline content without a high pH. If you read the opening post it says: "It is the alkalinity of nutrient water and the potential acidity/basicity of the fertilizer(s) that influence the pH of the growing medium and root zone."

If you have highly alkaline water then eventually you might need to lower the pH of the substrate, more likely in peat mixes than in soil. You can do that with sulfuric acid if that's something you feel comfortable with, but it's not necessary to acidify your medium with every watering, only when it's out of range and until it's back in range.

Therefore it's not necessary to pH adjust your nutes. Feel free to do it obviously, but the title of this thread is "do we need to pH adjust..." and the answer is no. No one said "never pH adjust..."

And consider the grower who is adding acid to their nutes every time who doesn't have highly alkaline water. They could end up lowering the pH of their medium out of range with every watering, and will see the resulting toxicities.

I didn't but you're obviously hung up on your credentials.

I did not ignore it. You allowed the pH of your substrate to rise out of an acceptable range and ignored it and your plants suffered. Don't do that.

As stated in the opening post:
"It is more important to keep track of the pH of the growing medium than the pH of the nutrient solution we feed the plants."

You failed in that task and your plants suffered. Phat oof!

As I have mentioned, that's one way to lower the pH of your medium if it gets to high for growing. Using acid is another. Either way, it only becomes necessary when it does. High nitrate fertilizers and high alkaline content will both increase the pH of the medium over time (sooner in peat mixes than soil) and might need to be dealt with during the course of the grow.

Yes, in an article that recommends the following method:
"It is best to inject acid directly from a concentrate barrel into the irrigation line so there is no handling."
Sound like folks growing on this site?

Soilless is what is considered peat mixes such as ProMix or Sunshine Mix #4.

pH matters, as Dr Bugbee shows, in the growing medium. He knows that his tap water is high in bicarbonate content, so they test leachate to monitor pH of the medium to make sure it's not out of range even with the acid they use.

Fair 'nuff.

And if there is a problem there are ways to solve it, like most problems encountered in growing. If you believe that adding acid to water for buffered media is a good way to keep the pH of that medium pH in range, how do you know you're not lowering it out of range without knowing the alkaline content of your water and monitoring the pH of you media?

As I have said, feel free to pH your nutes for a buffered medium, but feel free not to.

"Lime will neutralize this acidity by dissolving, whereupon it releases a base into the soil solution that reacts with the acidic components, hydrogen and aluminum."
Source

Eventually that ability wears out, and since it's the only thing keeping the pH of peat mixes in check, they are more prone to pH swings. The organic matter in soil itself acts as a buffer, giving it much greater stability, which is why I went back to soil.

It would, but the odds are better that there is something else going on, like you're over-feeding it phosphorus or potassium in flower. The only way to know if your plant has a pH problem is by testing the soil not reading the leaves. More plants will have disaster bite them in the ass in flower from following nute myths and force-feeding them what they don't need than a medium with the wrong pH. And testing that pH is easy.

Makes sense to me, thanks for the knowledge.

 

[bluter]

I don’t want to jinx myself but my girl has been in flowering for several weeks now and a couple 2-3 till chop.

that far in i wouldn't even worry.

And if there is a problem there are ways to solve it, like most problems encountered in growing.

many of which are avoided to begin. preventative maintenance.

If you believe that adding acid to water for buffered media is a good way to keep the pH of that medium pH in range, how do you know you're not lowering it out of range without knowing the alkaline content of your water and monitoring the pH of you media?

due to the claims - or at least allusions - made by the same mfgrs that ph is not necessary. if not necessary the ph won't matter. it might negate the need for ph, but it won't harm to do it for the very same reasons.

either it doesn't matter in the media or it does. they can't have it both ways.


the truth is no media mfgr has the balls to specifically state if it requires ph or not. they'll dance around the statement, but no balls. that's what i read directly in to your interaction with promix as well.

some nute lines will make that distinction, but most piss around the pole the same as the media companies.

the truth is none of them can legally afford to make a guarantee. and that's what should inform you.

 

[CaptainLucky]

Makes sense to me, thanks for the knowledge.

Yeah I gotcha now so before trying to figure out if it’s a deficiency of nutes step 1 is to ph the medium.

 

[bluter]

Yeah I gotcha now so before trying to figure out if it’s a deficiency of nutes step 1 is to ph the medium.

is there a problem ? that's a huge leap and a wrong step 1 in most issues. it's all the same answer though, a proper flush and nute reset. ph your call. but it'll never hurt.

 

[InTheShed]

Yeah I gotcha now so before trying to figure out if it’s a deficiency of nutes step 1 is to ph the medium.

Like bluter said that seems backwards to me. If there's a problem in flower it's more likely that there's a nutrient issue than a pH issue.

 

[CaptainLucky]

is there a problem ? that's a huge leap and a wrong step 1 in most issues. it's all the same answer though, a proper flush and nute reset. ph your call. but it'll never hurt.

No problem

Like bluter said that seems backwards to me. If there's a problem in flower it's more likely that there's a nutrient issue than a pH issue.

no problem.

 

[Diatomacious]

Are you talking about ammonia or ammonium?

I am talking about ammonia NH4. Such as ammonia phosphate, ammonia nitrate, etc. This is the ammonia that is poisonous to animals and humans. It is pretty much in ALL chemical fertilizer.

Since the soil microbes convert the ammoniacal nitrogen into a safe form, what's wrong with using it if you need to? No one in hydro need to use ammoniacal N and shouldn't. They also pH adjust their nutes.

Normally in nature this is how it works. A dead animal or other decaying matter will give off ammonia and the microbes will convert it to a non poisonous form. With chemical fertilizer we are adding way way more ammonia than normally occurs in nature in a 100% water soluble form so it goes straight into the plant. It takes the microbes years to clean up a stretch of land that has been exposed to chemical ammonia as opposed to normal decay. This is why it washes out to the ocean where it causes dead zones and kills off our oxygen supply (phytoplankton and diatoms).

Add to that the fact it is poisonous to humans and it's a no brainer. DON'T USE AMMONIA

Of course the government will tell you it's Covid (or freon) so they can push trillions through congress. They don't make a dime by not selling ammonia.

 

[KeithLemon]

Although I do adjust my water temperature for highest oxygen molecules.

What temp do you use?

 

[KeithLemon]

Are you talking about ammonia or ammonium?

Since the soil microbes convert the ammoniacal nitrogen into a safe form, what's wrong with using it if you need to? No one in hydro need to use ammoniacal N and shouldn't. They also pH adjust their nutes.

Lose the sarcasm "boss." Given your education it seems like you should be better at this. But I'll give you a bit more of my time.

If you mix up a bunch of nutes and the resulting pH is 7 there is no need to lower it before feeding. That's "input pH" and that's the point of this thread. You're just looking for an argument based on some self-centered idea of what we're talking about in this thread.

You can have high pH water without high alkaline content and high alkaline content without a high pH. If you read the opening post it says: "It is the alkalinity of nutrient water and the potential acidity/basicity of the fertilizer(s) that influence the pH of the growing medium and root zone."

If you have highly alkaline water then eventually you might need to lower the pH of the substrate, more likely in peat mixes than in soil. You can do that with sulfuric acid if that's something you feel comfortable with, but it's not necessary to acidify your medium with every watering, only when it's out of range and until it's back in range.

Therefore it's not necessary to pH adjust your nutes. Feel free to do it obviously, but the title of this thread is "do we need to pH adjust..." and the answer is no. No one said "never pH adjust..."

And consider the grower who is adding acid to their nutes every time who doesn't have highly alkaline water. They could end up lowering the pH of their medium out of range with every watering, and will see the resulting toxicities.

I didn't but you're obviously hung up on your credentials.

I did not ignore it. You allowed the pH of your substrate to rise out of an acceptable range and ignored it and your plants suffered. Don't do that.

As stated in the opening post:
"It is more important to keep track of the pH of the growing medium than the pH of the nutrient solution we feed the plants."

You failed in that task and your plants suffered. Phat oof!

As I have mentioned, that's one way to lower the pH of your medium if it gets too high for growing. Using acid is another. Either way, it only becomes necessary when it does. High nitrate fertilizers and high alkaline content will both increase the pH of the medium over time (sooner in peat mixes than soil) and might need to be dealt with during the course of the grow.

Yes, in an article that recommends the following method:
"It is best to inject acid directly from a concentrate barrel into the irrigation line so there is no handling."
Sound like folks growing on this site?

Soilless is what is considered peat mixes such as ProMix or Sunshine Mix #4.

pH matters, as Dr Bugbee shows, in the growing medium. He knows that his tap water is high in bicarbonate content, so they test leachate to monitor pH of the medium to make sure it's not out of range even with the acid they use.

Fair 'nuff.

And if there is a problem there are ways to solve it, like most problems encountered in growing. If you believe that adding acid to water for buffered media is a good way to keep the pH of that medium pH in range, how do you know you're not lowering it out of range without knowing the alkaline content of your water and monitoring the pH of you media?

As I have said, feel free to pH your nutes for a buffered medium, but feel free not to.

"Lime will neutralize this acidity by dissolving, whereupon it releases a base into the soil solution that reacts with the acidic components, hydrogen and aluminum."
Source

Eventually that ability wears out, and since it's the only thing keeping the pH of peat mixes in check, they are more prone to pH swings. The organic matter in soil itself acts as a buffer, giving it much greater stability, which is why I went back to soil.

It would, but the odds are better that there is something else going on, like you're over-feeding it phosphorus or potassium in flower. The only way to know if your plant has a pH problem is by testing the soil not reading the leaves. More plants will have disaster bite them in the ass in flower from following nute myths and force-feeding them what they don't need than a medium with th

Are you talking about ammonia or ammonium?

Since the soil microbes convert the ammoniacal nitrogen into a safe form, what's wrong with using it if you need to? No one in hydro need to use ammoniacal N and shouldn't. They also pH adjust their nutes.

Lose the sarcasm "boss." Given your education it seems like you should be better at this. But I'll give you a bit more of my time.

If you mix up a bunch of nutes and the resulting pH is 7 there is no need to lower it before feeding. That's "input pH" and that's the point of this thread. You're just looking for an argument based on some self-centered idea of what we're talking about in this thread.

You can have high pH water without high alkaline content and high alkaline content without a high pH. If you read the opening post it says: "It is the alkalinity of nutrient water and the potential acidity/basicity of the fertilizer(s) that influence the pH of the growing medium and root zone."

If you have highly alkaline water then eventually you might need to lower the pH of the substrate, more likely in peat mixes than in soil. You can do that with sulfuric acid if that's something you feel comfortable with, but it's not necessary to acidify your medium with every watering, only when it's out of range and until it's back in range.

Therefore it's not necessary to pH adjust your nutes. Feel free to do it obviously, but the title of this thread is "do we need to pH adjust..." and the answer is no. No one said "never pH adjust..."

And consider the grower who is adding acid to their nutes every time who doesn't have highly alkaline water. They could end up lowering the pH of their medium out of range with every watering, and will see the resulting toxicities.

I didn't but you're obviously hung up on your credentials.

I did not ignore it. You allowed the pH of your substrate to rise out of an acceptable range and ignored it and your plants suffered. Don't do that.

As stated in the opening post:
"It is more important to keep track of the pH of the growing medium than the pH of the nutrient solution we feed the plants."

You failed in that task and your plants suffered. Phat oof!

As I have mentioned, that's one way to lower the pH of your medium if it gets too high for growing. Using acid is another. Either way, it only becomes necessary when it does. High nitrate fertilizers and high alkaline content will both increase the pH of the medium over time (sooner in peat mixes than soil) and might need to be dealt with during the course of the grow.

Yes, in an article that recommends the following method:
"It is best to inject acid directly from a concentrate barrel into the irrigation line so there is no handling."
Sound like folks growing on this site?

Soilless is what is considered peat mixes such as ProMix or Sunshine Mix #4.

pH matters, as Dr Bugbee shows, in the growing medium. He knows that his tap water is high in bicarbonate content, so they test leachate to monitor pH of the medium to make sure it's not out of range even with the acid they use.

Fair 'nuff.

And if there is a problem there are ways to solve it, like most problems encountered in growing. If you believe that adding acid to water for buffered media is a good way to keep the pH of that medium pH in range, how do you know you're not lowering it out of range without knowing the alkaline content of your water and monitoring the pH of you media?

As I have said, feel free to pH your nutes for a buffered medium, but feel free not to.

"Lime will neutralize this acidity by dissolving, whereupon it releases a base into the soil solution that reacts with the acidic components, hydrogen and aluminum."
Source

Eventually that ability wears out, and since it's the only thing keeping the pH of peat mixes in check, they are more prone to pH swings. The organic matter in soil itself acts as a buffer, giving it much greater stability, which is why I went back to soil.

It would, but the odds are better that there is something else going on, like you're over-feeding it phosphorus or potassium in flower. The only way to know if your plant has a pH problem is by testing the soil not reading the leaves. More plants will have disaster bite them in the ass in flower from following nute myths and force-feeding them what they don't need than a medium with the wrong pH. And testing that pH is easy.

e wrong pH. And testing that pH is easy.

Ya what he said

 

[Diatomacious]

It takes the microbes years to clean up a stretch of land that has been exposed to chemical ammonia as opposed to normal decay.

Ammonia is a poison to the soil microbes just like it is to people and animals. Applying large amounts of it to the soil will kill off their numbers just like it kills off the phytoplankton and diatoms.

Applying blood or other organic source of nitrogen to the soil will give them some form of nourishment and help to replenish their ranks.

We are looking at an extinction level event when the oxygen runs out.

 

[CaptainLucky]

Ammonia is a poison to the soil microbes just like it is to people and animals. Applying large amounts of it to the soil will kill off their numbers just like it kills off the phytoplankton and diatoms.

Applying blood or other organic source of nitrogen to the soil will give them some form of nourishment and help to replenish their ranks.

We are looking at an extinction level event when the oxygen runs out.

Ammonia = Bad, gotcha.

 

[CaptainLucky]

I only use organic nutes anyway.

 

[GreenFingaz]

In the extreme it will show. Plants will adapt to a wide variety of soil pH if you give them a week or two. For soil-less a pH in the range of 5.5 to 6 works best (I prefer 6 on the dot) but I've had good luck growing with a pH of 7 so there is more to it than pH such as nutrient concentration.

It takes 0.5 to 1.5 oz (14,000 to 42,000 mg)of lime per gallon of peat based mix to achieve a pH of 6. It only takes about 100 mg of calcium carbonate in order for my nutrient mix to achieve a pH of 6. That is why peat buffers so well.

So with a mainly peat based medium to test the ph do you just run water thru the medium and test the run off? Ive never tested medium before??

 

[Diatomacious]

So with a mainly peat based medium to test the ph do you just run water thru the medium and test the run off? Ive never tested medium before??

That's one way to do it. You could also collect the run off and pour it through the medium a time or two more before testing to make sure it has the same pH as the medium. They also sell testing pens for soil but you must make sure the medium is thoroughly moist and mixed homogenously or test in several different areas and take the average.

The pour through test is probably the easiest way for most home growers as this is basically the average soil pH for the entire pot.

Ammonia = Bad, gotcha.

Exactly. My experience with it has shown me ammonia has no nutritional value and is simply a poisonous contaminant in our food supply.

I only use organic nutes anyway.

Make sure to test them for ammonia contamination. Take a small amount of the fertilizer and get it moist then put your finger in it or hold it in your hand and see if it causes any pain or tingling sensation. If it begins to hurt or burn it probably is contaminated with ammonia and will kill off your soil microbes. If this is the case you are growing chemically and not organically.

Organic nutrients will not hurt or burn your skin they are simply dead plant or animal matter.

 

[Peat Phreak]

If you mix up a bunch of nutes and the resulting pH is 7 there is no need to lower it before feeding. That's "input pH" and that's the point of this thread. You're just looking for an argument based on some self-centered idea of what we're talking about in this thread.

That is exactly what Bugbee did in the example I provided. He mixed nutes including ammonium to 6.8 pH. This is NOT adequate to control the media pH, so he adds more acid to the input. Because Dr. Bugbee knows that input pH matters.

So your 'advice' to not pH with acid and use ammonium instead 'like the pros' is bad advice. Did you know that ammonium can reduce THC? No you didn't. You might want to look that up before ruining other people's grows with more bad advice. Ammonium is great for pH management of tulips. Not so great for weed.

By the way, only 4% of 'pros' actually use ammonium according to a recent survey of 'pros'. So once again, you are demonstrating that you do not have a firm grasp of reality.

Cannabis Media and Nutrient Use

I could continue to sort out all of your bullshit in this thread with easily verifiable facts. But quite frankly, I don't want to bruise your ego more than it already is.

 

[CaptainLucky]

That's one way to do it. You could also collect the run off and pour it through the medium a time or two more before testing to make sure it has the same pH as the medium. They also sell testing pens for soil but you must make sure the medium is thoroughly moist and mixed homogenously or test in several different areas and take the average.

The pour through test is probably the easiest way for most home growers as this is basically the average soil pH for the entire pot.

Exactly. My experience with it has shown me ammonia has no nutritional value and is simply a poisonous contaminant in our food supply.

Make sure to test them for ammonia contamination. Take a small amount of the fertilizer and get it moist then put your finger in it or hold it in your hand and see if it causes any pain or tingling sensation. If it begins to hurt or burn it probably is contaminated with ammonia and will kill off your soil microbes. If this is the case you are growing chemically and not organically.

Organic nutrients will not hurt or burn your skin they are simply dead plant or animal matter.

They’re O.M.R.I. certified if that’s any thing .

 

[CaptainLucky]

That is exactly what Bugbee did in the example I provided. He mixed nutes including ammonium to 6.8 pH. This is NOT adequate to control the media pH, so he adds more acid to the input. Because Dr. Bugbee knows that input pH matters.

So your 'advice' to not pH with acid and use ammonium instead 'like the pros' is bad advice. Did you know that ammonium can reduce THC? No you didn't. You might want to look that up before ruining other people's grows with more bad advice. Ammonium is great for pH management of tulips. Not so great for weed.

By the way, only 4% of 'pros' actually use ammonium according to a recent survey of 'pros'. So once again, you are demonstrating that you do not have a firm grasp of reality.

Cannabis Media and Nutrient Use

I could continue to sort out all of your bullshit in this thread with easily verifiable facts. But quite frankly, I don't want to bruise your ego more than it already is.

Brothers are Sisters can’t we just be nice.

 

[Peat Phreak]

Brothers are Sisters can’t we just be nice.

I can't sugar coat it any better than that.