OlderStoner - Indoor/Outdoor Grow

[OlderStoner]

No the white widows with the red streaks are the ones grown from feminized seeds and all are still in veg. They do not exhibit any of the yellowing that I'm seeing in the big White Widow X that's in flowering. These plants are the ones I call Alexis, Brenda, Cindy and Diane (A,B,C & D), in the hopes that since they are from feminized seeds they will all be females. And there is no curling of the leaves. These plants are all in the area I now call my veg table. The golden Miller Time glow is from the 600 watt HPS in the same room. It turns off just about now and I move the female into her dark room for the night. These stay under the fluoro lights for another 5 hours for their 12 hour shift. Soon I will switch all these to 12/12.

 

[OlderStoner]

One more time this evening and I promise to put it to rest. This is the White Widow X female that's showing some yellowing of the top leaves. It's hard to look at this thing all bushy and growing and to think anything could be wrong. But that's why I'm pressing this issue, I think there may be something wrong. If it is a Mg deficiency then the Open Sesame which went into the nutes for it yesterday should have taken care of it...or maybe not. Like AG said it could be a lockout of some kind. The run off from this pot yesterday was ph 6.5. So it must be something other than the water.

You know as I look at these photos which are not under that HPS light, I think I may have been incorrect in describing the problem. It does appear to be the outer edges of the leaves which are yellowing, not from the center. The centers are darker green that the edges.

 

[OlderStoner]

I may just be getting paranoid but I would hate to screw up all this hard work now that I'm in flowering. I read something this morning about the light bleaching the top leaves. This is a 600 watt HPS and it's about 18" to 20" above the top of the plant's top leaves. I held my hand out under it this weekend and it was a little hot but not unbearable, that's why I moved it up higher to the 18"-20" level. At that point it feels easy on my skin, only a little warm. Could it be that I possibly have this light too close for comfort?

BTW - The articles I read at another forum indicated their suspicions of FF nutes being the culprit.

 

[KingJohnC]

purple stems and fan leaves are a sign of a calcium and magnesium deficiency, others have suggested it is a phosphorous deficiency. I would progressively over several waterings work your nutrient strength up to full strength. the yellowing of your leaves most likely from either low nitrogen or improper pH. I would flush your pots with pH adjusted water until the runoff is pH 6.5. you want pH 5.8 for hydroponic and soiless (peat moss and coco coir) and pH 6.5 for soil.

here is a nutrient availability chart

here is a cannabis leaf deficiency chart

 

[OlderStoner]

The cannibus spirits must be fighting me. This beautiful plant which had a nice run off of 6.5 over a week ago now has run off of 7.3 and that's using 6.0 ph water. I gave it a good dose of FF nutes over this past weekend and I diluted that with another dose of 6.5 plain water. It does appear to be showing signs of some kind of lockout. I hated to do this only the 3rd week into flowering but I flushed the pot just now and I'm still seeing 7.2 ph and 910 ppm on the run off. More trouble is that all those yellowing leaves at the top are now curling down like claws. Not the entire plant, just the top 1/4 of it. The drainage is working so I'm hoping this curling will fade once the pot starts to dry out. The pot is still draining and under the HPS light for about 30 more minutes before it's lights out. Man, I don't understand what I'm doing so wrong. The nute mix I gave it was not full strength. From the chart above it looks like either sulfur or iron deficiency.

The male which was outside was getting blown by the wind when I noticed some of it's pollen sacks had burst the wind must have taken it all. I tried to shake the tops over the glass jar I'm using to collect pollen but nothing showed up. So I cut the tops off and placed all the remaining pollen sacks in the jar, closed it tightly and put it in the fridge. Then I pulled it out of it's pot and tossed the remains of it into the compost pile. That will be it for the male. Perhaps the female sensed this and is in mourning...I don't know what else to think. This plant was doing so good and then when feeding time came round, I must have overdone something. The mix I gave it was as follows:

1 gallon of 6.5 ph tap water which had sit for 48 hours in an open container
1 tsp Grow Big
1 tsp Tiger Bloom
1 Tblsp Big Bloom
1/4 tsp Open Sesame

This is approximately 1/2 of the strength shown in the chart I was given earlier for FF regime. And BTW, I showered and changed clothes after touching the male before going in with the female.

The first run off measure I took there was about 1 pint of water in the catch pan. That measure 7.2 ph and 910 ppm. I poured that away and let the pot continue to drain. The measurement I just took now is 7.8 ph and 880 ppm. I cannot understand how all I did was add water which was 6.5 or lower into a pot that was fine at 6.5 10 days ago. Now it's showing damn near 8.0 ph. Unless someone came into the house and poisoned this plant, I'm at a loss to understand how the ph keeps going up when I'm using 6.5 or lower for water and the only thing in the water was some of the FF nutes. I will take another measurement in the morning. The pot will continue draining through through the lights out phase tonight.

 

[AfricanGrower]

I would progressively over several waterings work your nutrient strength up to full strength. the yellowing of your leaves most likely from either low nitrogen or improper pH.

In my experience Nitrogen deficient plants exhibit signs of yellowing towards the bottom of the plant, not the upper top and new growth. I highly doubt this is a Nitrogen deficiency, not to say you are wrong KJC, but based on plant diagnoses it highly unlikely.

Also I agree with progressively working your way up in nutrient strength, BUT using Fox Farms at full strength WILL do more bad than good. The recommended feeding for the first week of flower (based on the Fox Farm schedule HERE suggests that the PPM range be between 1960-2100...KingJohnC, we both know that this is WAY too high of a range for a plant this size. Matter of fact, I never go above 1400 PPM during my ENTIRE grow.

>>> Could it be that I possibly have this light too close for comfort?

Highly doubt it Older, as light bleaching will either look like burn spots, or the leaves will exhibit a almost white tint to them.

Here is a pic of an example of light bleaching that shows a white, almost albino hue to it. Note that this was due to having the bud fairly close to the HPS. Based on the grower, he said it seemed to only remove the chlorophyll, but did not damage the bud.

My limit for how close I keep my HID from the tops is no less than 12-16 inches depending on ambient room temps. Ideally I keep them at 18-24 inches away for maximum light coverage of the canopy. You should be fine.

 

[OlderStoner]

She's in the dark now. All I can do is to keep my fingers crossed. I feel very depressed about this. To invest so much time only to have to watch as the plant goes down in flames. I hope by morning or at least over the next few days there are signs of recovery. Another reason why I have multiple plants as well as clones waiting in the wings.

Okay, so the signs point to an iron deficiency. But would that be due to no iron or lock out especially since the ph in this run off went up so much higher than the 6.5 it once was?

 

[AfricanGrower]

Don't worry too much about it bro. The best thing you can do with this situation is LEARN from it come next growing season! When life hands you lemons....you know what to do

 

[OlderStoner]

In reading up on this, I'm going to wager that the Open Sesame was the culprit to lock up the iron with it's 58 level of phosphorous. And as to why the ph level was going up....I don't believe this...man I really don't believe this. And dog-gone it if a few days ago I didn't try to get cute and use real lemon juice, squeezed by my own stupid hand to lower the ph in one of the batches of water. I cannot recall if this water was given to the female or not. With this many plants I went through about 7 gallons of water to get everyone of them covered. This may be an urban legend, maybe part of my problem or it may have been the cause all along. Another reason to learn as much as you can and then learn some more. The ph down product I'm using is not citrus based.

 

[AfricanGrower]

Older, that link and the other you provided previously are technically not allowed to be posted on this forum according to the rules. If you try clicking on it, the URL is missing

Oh man THOSE solubles......did you use the recommended dosage of those solubles? Yea they are VERY VERY concentrated. When I used them (which was RARELY) I barely used 1/4 strength in my solution. The only time I really implemented the solubles was when I was experiencing a P or K deficiency of some kind!

As for using Lemon Juice to lower pH, not a too big of a deal! Other home remedies like White Distilled Vinegar is also a viable option to lower the pH, especially at how high those prices are for pH buffering solutions! I have never used lemon juice, though I read that growers use it all the time as a pH down substitute. In my experience, I have used Distilled White Vinegar on multiple occasions to successfully lower my pH. Plus the fact that you are in soil provides a sufficient buffering against the acidity of the vinegar/lemon juice.

HAHA I just realized, you literally got handed lemons, and made Lemonade

 

[OlderStoner]

...HAHA I just realized, you literally got handed lemons, and made Lemonade

ROFL!. Yes, but I can tell you that having had bad luck n the past with too many nutes...it's like deja vu, all over again. This morning after last night's flushing the plant is at least still alive. And those leaves which were all curled downward like claws last night are all perked up again after 12 hours of darkness. Today is supposed to be a very mild and sunny day, so I placed it outdoors where it can recover with fresh air and natural sunlight. I will of course move it back inside around midday. I'm going to give it a day or two to adjust and then give it 1/4 maybe even less of the nute mix but that's it for me. I'm going to have to be very careful with this stuff. It's a real pain to put this much effort into a plant and then see it stress like this. You know you kind of get attached to these projects and failure is not easy to take. But this one is not over yet.

 

[stealthgrow]

I wouldn't worry too much older, you seem to be on top of it. Remember, the plants are weeds and want to grow, you have to do something pretty bad to kill them completely, she'll bounce back.
Good luck.

 

[AfricanGrower]

>>>The first run off measure I took there was about 1 pint of water in the catch pan. That measure 7.2 ph and 910 ppm. I poured that away and let the pot continue to drain. The measurement I just took now is 7.8 ph and 880 ppm. I cannot understand how all I did was add water which was 6.5 or lower into a pot that was fine at 6.5 10 days ago. Now it's showing damn near 8.0 ph. Unless someone came into the house and poisoned this plant, I'm at a loss to understand how the ph keeps going up when I'm using 6.5 or lower for water and the only thing in the water was some of the FF nutes.

I completely missed this post previously. As we said before your pH will never be steady due to the mix of soil you started off with. When preparing your medium, you always need condition it to the right pH before using. In soil this is less of a concern, BUT getting the right mix of amendments can keep your soil at a natural 6.5-7.0 pH. Based on your runoff, your soil's natural pH is VERY alkaline.

Same goes with hydro, for example, I soak my rockwool cubes in 4.0 pH adjusted water for 24 hours, and because of the natural 7 pH of the rockwool, it steadies out at 5.8-6.0 right on the mark for. Now I know my medium WILL always be that pH, causing minimal buffering to the nutrient feed's pH.

Sorry to say it, but you WILL be experiencing pH fluctuations for the plants that are in your soil.

 

[OlderStoner]

Yes, I chalk that one up to experience. It will be a few more hours before I can look at it again because it's in the dark room. But when I got home last night and examined it, I swear I could see a deep green color returning to those yellowing fan leaves at the top. I had to move her into darkness per the schedule.

As you can tell, I also went to the local hydro shop and purchased a TDS meter. Wasn't cheap but the lady and the other young man working there were so helpful in their advice I didn't want to leave without buying something from them. So I'm now able to measure ppm and the last reading I got out of that water when I flushed it was 650 ppm. As I understand it that's kind of low so I will give it a little time and then add the nute mix in but I'm going to be very sparing with it. I'll know more about what the plant needs when I can examine later this morning.

 

[AfricanGrower]

Nice to hear that they are recoevering finally!

And great choice in purchasing a TDS meter! The optimal range of PPM for veg is 300-900 (in soil) and in flowering (900-1400). You can go above this however you run the risk of locking up nutrients. In my opinion it is always easier to deal with a deficiency than a lockout!

 

[OlderStoner]

DAY 65:

Okay, now to be sure I understand the whole TDS theory. At this stage in flowering I'm shooting for 900 to 1400. This morning when I ran some more plain 6.0 ph water through it I got a reading of 940 on the TDS pen for the run off water. The water measured 300 before I poured it in. So that would mean that I subtract the 300 from 940 to get a real reading on the ppm in the soil? That would give me a reading of 640...so I should be ready to add more nutes??? to get the reading up higher in the 900 range. And if I pour more of the 300 ppm water in the pot I will be looking for a total reading of 1200 to 1700 on the pen in the run off water???

Is this the correct information on TDS measurements.

BTW - I checked on the plant again before I put it into the darkroom and while there is still some of that iron/sulfur deficiency appearance in some of the upper leaves, it's not as bad as it was. The plant has also increased it's height to now just over 36". That's up from 32" it was less than a week ago. So it's stretching for sure. The buds are filling in the colas but I don't see anything in the way of trichomes yet.

And AG what you've referenced in the past about the leaves being smooth like glass. I'm not sure I get what you mean by that entirely but yes, the leaves are smooth, with little or no texture to them at all. BUT...the leaves on the other plants which are still in veg are also the same to the touch. Only the Cotton Candy plant has some texture that's noticeably feelable when I touch it.

 

[AfricanGrower]

>>> So that would mean that I subtract the 300 from 940 to get a real reading on the ppm in the soil? That would give me a reading of 640...so I should be ready to add more nutes??? to get the reading up higher in the 900 range. And if I pour more of the 300 ppm water in the pot I will be looking for a total reading of 1200 to 1700 on the pen in the run off water???

Yes the subtracted number should be ROUGHLY the range of PPM in your soil. When I mentioned a range of 900-1400, it is still possible to harvest a plant in soil even at the lowest range of 900. This range is VERY strain-dependent, and should be adjusted cautiously, only if no signs of burnt tips are occurring.

I still would be a little wary of adding more nutrients, until your plant is showing full signs of healthy new growth. Remember that your soil has time release nutrients in it already, that may start to kick in now more than before, so take it slow with adjusting to a higher feeding regime!

>>> And AG what you've referenced in the past about the leaves being smooth like glass. I'm not sure I get what you mean by that entirely but yes, the leaves are smooth, with little or no texture to them at all. BUT...the leaves on the other plants which are still in veg are also the same to the touch. Only the Cotton Candy plant has some texture that's noticeably feelable when I touch it.

That is exactly what I mean by smooth. Little to no texture, to the point where it feels like there is no moisture in the leaf. It can also feel similar to a white sheet of paper in dryness. This is a sign that your plant is not getting a specific nutrient, and in most cases that nutrient is Mg. The most common deficiency to most growers, IMO, is Mg and in all the cases I experienced an Mg deficiency, this 'glass-like' feeling on NEW GROWTH was the first tall tell signs before it started getting worse.

 

[KingJohnC]

your leaf damage appears to be from a pH lockout. when you take a measurement of the soil runoff you want to take the first liquid that runs off, not a large volume of water.

 

[OlderStoner]

KJC, I'm sure you're spot on. The question becomes how do I lower the ph in that pot. I've poured 6.0 ph water and lower but the run off remains above 7 no matter what.

 

[KingJohnC]

it appears your soil prefers to be above pH 7. I would water with a pH 5.5 nutrient mixture.