A Base Treatment Regimen For Cancer

[KingstonRabbi]

Nobby, I hope all is going well.
I have been studying rectal administration and while it seems like the easiest and most effective method. I have read an analysis that cautions about the bio availability of rectal administration:
LATEST THOUGHTS ON RECTAL ADMINISTRATION - Greenbridge Medical Services

Good luck and God Bless

Thanks for sharing article. I liked that he didn't recommend that patients stop using suppositories if it's working for them.
Also, the studies (abstracts) he cites may not actually contradicts what I've been reading here and related threads.
The first study he cites compares bioavailability using different delivery bases. Some are better than others, which we already knew. One was 67% bioavailable according to study. That adds detail to what we know but doesn't really change it.
Second study I question mainly because it was designed for a range of delivery methods, so it cannot provide meaningful conclusions about any one method. It definitely raises questions about rectal absorbtion worth further study.
I appreciate having info from multiple perspectives. I'm letting this info sink in, trying to understand it and related ideas a little better.
Thanks again Amanita.
And of course hoping that Nobby's treatment is going well.

 

[nobby32]

Nobby, I hope all is going well.
I have been studying rectal administration and while it seems like the easiest and most effective method. I have read an analysis that cautions about the bio availability of rectal administration:
LATEST THOUGHTS ON RECTAL ADMINISTRATION - Greenbridge Medical Services

Good luck and God Bless

Hi Amanita, and thank you for the post.

I am/have been aware that certain studies have appointed out the inefficiency of the rectal route, and there is much data to corroborate this. There is also enough anecdotal evidence that rectal administration works to make this whole rectal administration subject worthy of consideration.

The Back door method is perfect for me - quick, easy, and I'm counting on it working! I'm in a full-time job, so the non-euphoria is probably the most important feature of its treatment, but if it doesn't work...well I'll find out won't I?

I'm having a PSA test in a fortnight, so we'll see whether or not I'm in trouble, in fact whether or not it's working. Hopefully the test will provide an answer for me one way or the other. It didn't work last year, but I believe my dosing protocol was wrong.

Oh for some scientific studies of our precious plant!!

Cheers, Nobby.

 

[nobby32]

....and while i'm in the neighbourhood - what are folks doing for MAINTENANCE doses?

Seemingly about 50mg per day is the dose most people are comfortable with.

I'm thinking of putting this 50mg all indica cc oil into a capsule mixed in an appropriate ratio, with coconut oil, and just swallow 2 hours before bed.

Is 50mg concentrated cannabis oil likely to get me too stoned to be comfortable?

I'm thinking that a capsule is much easier to hide/disguise than a syringe in case of a holiday plane flight, or similar. Just slip the cannabis pill in with other similar-looking medication and Bob's your uncle!

Any thoughts?

Cheers, Nobby

 

[SweetSue]

....and while i'm in the neighbourhood - what are folks doing for MAINTENANCE doses?

Seemingly about 50mg per day is the dose most people are comfortable with.

I'm thinking of putting this 50mg all indica cc oil into a capsule mixed in an appropriate ratio, with coconut oil, and just swallow 2 hours before bed.

Is 50mg concentrated cannabis oil likely to get me too stoned to be comfortable?

I'm thinking that a capsule is much easier to hide/disguise than a syringe in case of a holiday plane flight, or similar. Just slip the cannabis pill in with other similar-looking medication and Bob's your uncle!

Any thoughts?

Cheers, Nobby

I'm thinking you'd be asleep, so what's too stoned when you're asleep? You could test one earlier in the evening to see what effect it's having, but again, you'd be going to sleep.

Always good to have you stop by Nobby. That spirit's going to serve you well. A caution on traveling with the capsules, something I haven't tried myself. They have a distinctive cannabis smell, the very thing the dogs are trained to sniff out. Take that into consideration and do some research on how other travelers are handling this. I'm flying internationally next year and my daughter made me promise not to try taking any with me. *sigh*

If you learn any travel tricks, I'd appreciate a heads up. Not that I'll try with this trip, there'll be enough produce on hand there to compensate, but for possible future travels. Those capsules are my baseline for normal.

I anticipate that research we all yearn for may be just around the corner. Given the brainpower out there chomping at the bit to get at it we shouldn't have long to wait before results begin to be published. Much longer than it needs to be, but it is what it is. I have to find that silver lining.

 

[nobby32]

I'm thinking you'd be asleep, so what's too stoned when you're asleep? You could test one earlier in the evening to see what effect it's having, but again, you'd be going to sleep.

Yeah I know I'll be asleep.

But if the smoke alarm went off, or one of the kids was sick, for instance, would I be incapable of coherent thought/action?

I think I'll do a test - I'll buy an empty capsule, do my sums, fill it, swallow it and wait and see.

So I'll post the result some time soonish I hope.

Cheers, Nobby

 

[SweetSue]

Yeah I know I'll be asleep.

But if the smoke alarm went off, or one of the kids was sick, for instance, would I be incapable of coherent thought/action?

I think I'll do a test - I'll buy an empty capsule, do my sums, fill it, swallow it and wait and see.

So I'll post the result some time soonish I hope.

Cheers, Nobby

Very good points Nobby. I'll look for your report.

 

[Amanita]

Do we have anyone else using CCO for Ovarian Cancer?
I am helping my wife with RSO after 2nd round of chemo since diagnosis and surgery in 01/2015
Testing different sources and working on building tolerance for now.
I use disposable suppository molds and mixing with cocoa butter to create 0.2g cco per lozenge.
So far she reports strong response and sleepiness at this level. Oral administration led to stomach cramps. tacking has been ok but hard to get up to the required dosages.
So far I am buying oil from dispensaries and online but I want to make my own once time permits. Finding reliable / tested sources of oil that I trust has been difficult.
I just cannot be sure what is in it if I am not making it myself...
If anyone else has experience with RSO and Ovarian Cancer they can share, it will be appreciated!
A

 

[SweetSue]

Do we have anyone else using CCO for Ovarian Cancer?
I am helping my wife with RSO after 2nd round of chemo since diagnosis and surgery in 01/2015
Testing different sources and working on building tolerance for now.
I use disposable suppository molds and mixing with cocoa butter to create 0.2g cco per lozenge.
So far she reports strong response and sleepiness at this level. Oral administration led to stomach cramps. tacking has been ok but hard to get up to the required dosages.
So far I am buying oil from dispensaries and online but I want to make my own once time permits. Finding reliable / tested sources of oil that I trust has been difficult.
I just cannot be sure what is in it if I am not making it myself...
If anyone else has experience with RSO and Ovarian Cancer they can share, it will be appreciated!
A

Good morning Amanita, so sorry to have to meet under these conditions, but let's get right to it. The first thing that came to mind is how many suppository doses a day are you doing? It may be that you need to split the doses up a bit more and spread them through the day. This same principle would apply for capsules as well. You control the THC response mostly by spreading the daily load out so effectively that no single administration will be enough to cause euphoria, but the sum total for the day is therapeutic enough to be effective.

The second thought was how deeply are you inserting the suppository, because you really shouldn't be getting euphoric effects to that extent with proper insertion. However, having said that , we have to always be aware that every individual body will have its own reaction to cannabis, and this may be your wife's response. Check depth of insertion first and see if maybe that's your necessary adjustment.

Thirdly, what strain are you using? The sleepiness would be a good thing if this was a nighttime or late evening dose, would it not? There may be a need for two different oil mixes, one for daytime use and another for night.

Next, are you using any methods of competitive inhibition? You might be able to counter a fair amount of the euphoria by getting a crowd in there to distract the enzymes while the cannabinoids sneak past in the liver, avoiding metabolization of much of the THC. It's that metabolization that's causing her the uncomfortable euphoria, so this step is so necessary.

Finally, how long have you been using CCO and have you had any labs yet that give any indication as to the effectiveness of the current treatment? You're up to 200 mg per suppository now, and some patients have responded well to lower doses, so it helps to have some science behind you as you titrate the dose.

I have no experience with ovarian cancer. Hopefully someone else will step forward to offer you some much-needed support here.

We'll work with you until you're satisfied that you've gotten answers that meet your needs. Please don't hesitate to use us. My best to your wife.

 

[panacea]

I would stick with suppositories if comfortable with this method. The lady i was giving the oil to Started "back door method" after becoming to "high" from oral consumption. She would mix her oil with coconut oil and insert the syringe instead of using the molds. She has had no euphoria effects from this method. Besides treating if not curing her lung cancer she also has found a incredible relief from her COPD. I will now highly recommend this method to future individuals i treat. Regarding the stomach cramps , this could be to high levels of chlorophyll into the oil, so i would suggest producing your own oil when you can, internet oil is so risky.

 

[Mariamlu]

Many people can not take 1 gram per day orally.
Suggestion was then 25% orally and 75% with suppositories.
Tacking is also oral dosing. Most of the tack is in the end swallowed with food, making it a slow dose. Tacking involves extra benefits via gum absorption. I would always tack before a suppository.
Vaginal dosing has also been advised by some people. I can not remember, where I read about it. Why not use vaginal suppositories in case of ovarian cancer?

 

[KingstonRabbi]

I would stick with suppositories if comfortable with this method. The lady i was giving the oil to Started "back door method" after becoming to "high" from oral consumption. She would mix her oil with coconut oil and insert the syringe instead of using the molds. She has had no euphoria effects from this method. Besides treating if not curing her lung cancer she also has found a incredible relief from her COPD. I will now highly recommend this method to future individuals i treat. Regarding the stomach cramps , this could be to high levels of chlorophyll into the oil, so i would suggest producing your own oil when you can, internet oil is so risky.

Ah, so that's the reason for the quick wash. I thought it was a taste/smell issue with the chlorophyll.

 

[SweetSue]

Many people can not take 1 gram per day orally.
Suggestion was then 25% orally and 75% with suppositories.
Tacking is also oral dosing. Most of the tack is in the end swallowed with food, making it a slow dose. Tacking involves extra benefits via gum absorption. I would always tack before a suppository.
Vaginal dosing has also been advised by some people. I can not remember, where I read about it. Why not use vaginal suppositories in case of ovarian cancer?

I have to agree with Mariamlu, try vaginal suppositories. Theoretically, it's bioavailability that makes the most difference. SlowToke was told by Nathan Russo himself that bioavailability was more important than getting the dose close to the area of concern, but my thinking is, why not do both? Delivery close to the cancer with improved bioavailability through competitive inhibition and the addition of lecithin.

 

[KingstonRabbi]

I have to agree with Mariamlu, try vaginal suppositories. Theoretically, it's bioavailability that makes the most difference. SlowToke was told by Nathan Russo himself that bioavailability was more important than getting the dose close to the area of concern, but my thinking is, why not do both? Delivery close to the cancer with improved bioavailability through competitive inhibition and the addition of lecithin.

By 'close to the cancer' do you mean just physically close or distance through blood stream? I would think the latter but I've seen references to cannabis traveling in lymph system. So far I've only been thinking about movement via blood stream but not about how it moves locally once it's in the region and how it finally gets to the cell.
That could be it's own thread, and maybe I should focus my own research on that topic. I'm hoping you have a quick answer that can get me started.

 

[KingstonRabbi]

Amanita,
I'm very sorry to hear about your wife's ovarian cancer. We lost my mother-in-law 6 years ago. I wish I had known about this site back then. Her cancer was found very late, but I'm sure MMJ still could have been effective. Glad you're here and on the right track.
Sorry I didn't say this earlier but I get so caught up in the science and practice of treatment sometimes I forget the people part of the cure. Hugs and well wishes to you and your wife. (normally I'm not a hugger but the people here have changed me.)

 

[SweetSue]

By 'close to the cancer' do you mean just physically close or distance through blood stream? I would think the latter but I've seen references to cannabis traveling in lymph system. So far I've only been thinking about movement via blood stream but not about how it moves locally once it's in the region and how it finally gets to the cell.
That could be it's own thread, and maybe I should focus my own research on that topic. I'm hoping you have a quick answer that can get me started.

You start a thread like that and I may crawl through the screen and hug you Rabbit. I've been hoping someone'd get curious enough about this to look deeper.

We use olive oil and other long-chained fatty acids as carrier oils precisely because we expect they're absorbed into the lymphatic system and bypass the First Pass through the liver. I haven't had the time to get into what cannabis does at the cellular level. Triage nurse can be a busy calling at times and I'm already stretched in many directions.

When I spoke of placement close to the tumor cells I was thinking of physical proximity, but that statement you made about distance it needs to travel through the bloodstream would also be a prime consideration, since there will always be cancer cells you won't be able to get physically close to. So a combination.

I'm not sure if I cleared that up or made it more confusing.

I encourage you, start a thread. Get some of our resident geniuses to get excited with you. Think of the possible discoveries some creative brainstorming and in-depth research could uncover.


Hugs are a healing force all their own. A 20-second hug every day will do more to maintain your mental, emotional and spiritual health than just about anything. We're designed to love. Hugging is one of the finest expressions of this basic need in all human beings. It's one of my life goals to subtly turn other people into huggers.

Thank you for letting me know how effective it's been.

 

[KingstonRabbi]

I think logical place for me to start is looking up textbook info on lymph system and nutrient uptake in general. From what I've read cancer tumors don't need blood vessels until they reach a certain size, so there must be some travel either in intercellular fluid or from cell to cell at smallest level. Also should look at how topicals work, because it would probably be very similar to last step of cell uptake. I hope I will b able to find info specifically about cannabis and CB1/2 receptors, which is different from nutrient uptake.

I've talked to my oncologist about why my tumors will shrink to undetectable core but not completely go away with chemo. Her answer was I don't know (as it often is even though she's one of the best and brightest at a top 5 ranked facility.) I think the answer to that will be closely related to this question. It's kind of cool that I'm able to educate her on some details of cancer treatment and MMJ, and really disturbing that we have to.

This is exactly the kind of stuff I used to read about for fun, usually 5-6 books at a time so I could cross-reference as I read. I am such a geek that I have several textbooks at home already to get started with. My brain has healed a lot in the last month so I think I'm ready for a project like this.

By the way if I haven't said it before, my cancer is stage 4 metastatic head and neck squamous cell carcinoma with HPV-16 positive. HPV puts me in a higher survival category than my original prognosis because it takes longer for cancer to develop resistance to chemo. Not going to be an issue for me though because I've done 2 rounds of chemo and I'm not gonna need a 3rd.

 

[panacea]

Anyone out there know the best way to take the oil to treat "incurable", "terminal" brain cancer (Gliobastoma). I know we had the discussion on one of our threads in the past and something about tacking comes to mind. Possibly have someone i would like to treat but would like to follow the best protocol for the diagnosis.

 

[SweetSue]

Anyone out there know the best way to take the oil to treat "incurable", "terminal" brain cancer (Gliobastoma). I know we had the discussion on one of our threads in the past and something about tacking comes to mind. Possibly have someone i would like to treat but would like to follow the best protocol for the diagnosis.

It's circuit you want to make contact with panacea. His was removed by surgery, but he's been researching this for years now as he successfully keeps the cancer at bay. Do you have his Facebook info?

I don't recall the protocol you're asking about. The tacking recommendation may be due to the idea of getting delivery sites closest to the tumor. According to Nathan Russo, it's more important to improve bioavailability than to be concerned with delivery sites. I'm a fan of doing both.

 

[panacea]

Another reason is purer oil, That is why freezing your material and alcohol is crucial Imo. When you take it out the freezer be sure to filter as quick as possible so your alcohol oil mixture will not start to get to room temp and the chlorophyll & waxes will dissolve back into your alcohol. Once i filter i put back into the freezer to let the chlorophyll & waxes coagulate and so the sediments settle in the bottom, a few hours later i will take back out the freezer and repeat the method 2 times again. Set your freezer to the coldest temp possible. I also prefer SCET method. And my oil comes out golden color and very potent .

 

[CCOiler]

Another reason is purer oil, That is why freezing your material and alcohol is crucial Imo. When you take it out the freezer be sure to filter as quick as possible so your alcohol oil mixture will not start to get to room temp and the chlorophyll & waxes will dissolve back into your alcohol. Once i filter i put back into the freezer to let the chlorophyll & waxes coagulate and so the sediments settle in the bottom, a few hours later i will take back out the freezer and repeat the method 2 times again. Set your freezer to the coldest temp possible. I also prefer SCET method. And my oil comes out golden color and very potent .

Do you have any pictures of your 2nd & 3rd freeze & filter? I'm wondering if you did the 3 qwet is it worth freezing & filtering 2 more times. Thank you for any info you are willing to share panacea