Dutch Bato Bucket Experimentation

[multiVortex]

So I'm curious on Dutch buckets, and am planning an experimental run at some point to see how it goes. Then I got to thinking (yes, here I go again. ) about certain aspects of this and that.

So for a quick recap/overview, you take a bucket, put an overflow on it so there is a 2" or so water level in the bottom. Then you fill the bucket with perlite, and water it 4-6 times per day. This replaces the bottom water, plus hydrates the perlite. (That's the big picture concept.)

So the main parts from this I get are that the bottom water level is sort of a way to mimic the bottom of a normal pot that usually holds a constant moistness.

Perlite being inert, and holding moisture, works well and cannot be over watered. As it's not constantly watered, plenty of O2 for the roots. It also wicks up moisture from the bottom, etc.


All this I get. But here is where my mind started to wander on the "what if's" and such.


The big thing for this is the water in the bottom. OK, cool. One of the tips for a system like this is to use a paint strainer bag (mesh bag that fits in a 5gal bucket) to keep the perlite in. Put strainer in bucket, add perlite to that. Easy peasy cleanup, and perlite doesn't escape or clog the overflow drain. Nice.

This part is where my deviation comes in. "What if" I were to take say, a 3" or 4" tall tray that was 14"-16" either square or diameter, and then put a fabric pot inside of that?

Now taking the nuances aside for a minute (like light on the outside tray, etc), could that work?

The idea would be to have that water res, just the same as the bucket, but you're simply taking the sides down and using a fabric pot. So you get the benefit of air pruning, plus the benefit of the dutch bucket. It almost becomes like an octo-pot concept, but a bit different.


In my feeble mind, this could work. Bringing a fabric pot into play, the number of watering cycles may need increased to combat the quicker drying out. However, the perlite should be wicking up from the bottom, so maybe it's not so bad.

At face value, the biggest issue I see is light and its introduction to the outer tray. Would have to find a way to block that, either by finding a tray with a lid, or making some kind of cover/sock to go around the pot that covers the gap between the edge of the pot and the tray. Could be felt, could be reflective sheeting, whatever.

So other than the change for the fabric pot, the rest of the Dutch bucket concept is the same. I'm thinking that a 2"-3" gap around all edges should be sufficient, but maybe the answer to the light issue is to just have the pot fit the tray without a gap. You would probably lose the air pruning in the bottom 4" though, so probably not a great idea.


Now for the plumbing of the overflow.

Pretty simple, no glue needed. I'm thinking of a slight deviation from the standard Dutch bucket due to the fabric pot. The outside is the same, but once it comes into the tray, I think into a tee, and then have the drains there. This would make for 2 drains instead of 1, but would also help curb overflow situations. With a 2" water level, and only a 3"-4" high tray, you want to make sure it drains faster than the max input.


Thinking for fabric pot size, either a 7gal square (which is ~12" on all sides), or 5gal round (which is 12" diameter and 10" high.)

That would make for a 16"-18" tray to give a 2"-3" gap all the way around. I'm just guessing on the 2"-3" gap and it being sufficient enough for an air gap so that air pruning works. Heck, a 1" gap may work, but I'm not sure.


So, am I nuts?

 

[TurboBucket]

Like this? Lol

Turbo-Closet Test Run - Autos - Boards & Pro-Mix HP

This will be the first partial run in the nearly completed turbo-closet. The space is a basement walk-in closet that's been slightly upgraded to contain two 42"*28"grow spaces. My first run in the closet was a pretty good success I yielded 10.5 ozs with one side in a scrog and the other a 2l...

www.420magazine.com

It worked. The problem was keeping light away from the nutrient solution in the perlite. Created a bit of algae but nothing major. They worked. If I had more money to put into the system it may have worked better. Now I just use a drain to waste setup with multiple irrigation cycles per day.

 

[multiVortex]

Like this? Lol

Turbo-Closet Test Run - Autos - Boards & Pro-Mix HP

This will be the first partial run in the nearly completed turbo-closet. The space is a basement walk-in closet that's been slightly upgraded to contain two 42"*28"grow spaces. My first run in the closet was a pretty good success I yielded 10.5 ozs with one side in a scrog and the other a 2l...

www.420magazine.com

It worked. The problem was keeping light away from the nutrient solution in the perlite. Created a bit of algae but nothing major. They worked. If I had more money to put into the system it may have worked better. Now I just use a drain to waste setup with multiple irrigation cycles per day.

Thanks! That's kind of close, but not quite. The only perlite exposed would be at the top of the fabric pot. It wouldn't be like a SWIK where the container sits on top of the perlite to wick up. However, some of the same grow principles apply, and it's excellent to know I'm not quite off my rocker just yet.




Here is an example of a basic Dutch bucket setup:

Now, imagine the plastic bucket is replaced by a fabric pot, and then set inside a slightly wider container that is 3"-4" tall.

That outer container is what keeps the water in place, while the fabric pot contains the perlite, etc.

Instead of the overflow/drain being in the pot, it would be in the outer container.

So it's doing the same overall as a standard Dutch bucket, but we're replacing the bucket with a fabric pot and moving the water containment to an outer shell.





Something else I though about is cleanup. Pretty easy, and you'll keep the fabric pots much cleaner without the dirt.


So far I've managed to find an oil change pan that is a 16" diameter and 4" tall for $3 a pop at the auto parts store.

I've also considered a storage tote, and cutting the height down to size. Benefit there is it comes with a lid.

Also found a 4'x1' flood tray that is 3" tall but a little pricey for something like this. Also too much room in it as well.

If I can find something 16"x16"x4", or even 18x18x4, that would be ideal.

Something I'm wondering about with this is back to the air pruning and the entire reason for thinking of this in the first place. If the bottom 2" is underwater, is another 1"-2" going to make that big of a difference? Thus, a 12x12x3 or 12x12x4 could work as well, as may be easier to find something in those dimensions.

 

[10gal]

so they will be sat in a table?

 

[TurboBucket]

Thanks! That's kind of close, but not quite. The only perlite exposed would be at the top of the fabric pot. It wouldn't be like a SWIK where the container sits on top of the perlite to wick up. However, some of the same grow principles apply, and it's excellent to know I'm not quite off my rocker just yet.




Here is an example of a basic Dutch bucket setup:

Now, imagine the plastic bucket is replaced by a fabric pot, and then set inside a slightly wider container that is 3"-4" tall.

That outer container is what keeps the water in place, while the fabric pot contains the perlite, etc.

Instead of the overflow/drain being in the pot, it would be in the outer container.

So it's doing the same overall as a standard Dutch bucket, but we're replacing the bucket with a fabric pot and moving the water containment to an outer shell.





Something else I though about is cleanup. Pretty easy, and you'll keep the fabric pots much cleaner without the dirt.


So far I've managed to find an oil change pan that is a 16" diameter and 4" tall for $3 a pop at the auto parts store.

I've also considered a storage tote, and cutting the height down to size. Benefit there is it comes with a lid.

Also found a 4'x1' flood tray that is 3" tall but a little pricey for something like this. Also too much room in it as well.

If I can find something 16"x16"x4", or even 18x18x4, that would be ideal.

Something I'm wondering about with this is back to the air pruning and the entire reason for thinking of this in the first place. If the bottom 2" is underwater, is another 1"-2" going to make that big of a difference? Thus, a 12x12x3 or 12x12x4 could work as well, as may be easier to find something in those dimensions.

That sounds an awful lot like what I did lol. I put 3 inches of perlite in the bottom and only left half an inch of water in them. The pots are then surrounded with an inch or two of perlite. The bins are plumbed together under the work surface and drained into my floor sump. The idea was to see if a full table of perlite would work as an extra reservoir for any size or number of fabric pots being grown on top of it. The flaw in mine was not enough watering cycles to keep the solution in the bottom fresh. I thought I had to let the medium dry out more than you actually do.

Now I just use a 4*4 table and fabric pots on drain to waste. About as simple as it gets.

 

[TurboBucket]

Your getting dangerously close to an auto pot. Lol

 

[10gal]

Your getting dangerously close to an auto pot. Lol

i thought he was getting pretty close to a recirculating table
2

 

[TurboBucket]

i thought he was getting pretty close to a recirculating table
2

That too haha

 

[multiVortex]

Your getting dangerously close to an auto pot. Lol

i thought he was getting pretty close to a recirculating table

It is sort of a mashup of principles, yes.

This wouldn't be on a table, as in a flood table, but obviously has to sit on top of something so the water can drain back to the res.

But, if you think of it in terms of a bag sitting in a flood tray, then yes. Although the flood tray is much smaller, and there will always be a 2" water level in the bottom.


In its purest sense, it's still just a Dutch bucket with an outer container to hold the water in, so you can use a fabric pot for the inner liner.



Oh, and I found some restaurant bus bins that are 18"x15"x5" at $20 for a 4-pack. So getting close to finding a workable outer shell.

 

[Stltoed]

BG hydro in Pasadena Ca. has " saucers that go up to 25 inches with 3.2" sides $5,99. They are pretty beefy and have matching elevators but it doesn't sound like you need them. They have other trays but they get spendy. I have a picture for you but I'm having a very hard time with this site right now.

Your grow is interesting. I hope it works for you. Sou is a lot like hempy only automated a bit. Nice

Did you make your drawings? What program is that? Pretty cool, and easier than Solidworks I'm sure.

 

[Stltoed]

BG hydro in Pasadena Ca. has " saucers that go up to 25 inches with 3.2" sides $5,99. They are pretty beefy and have matching elevators but it doesn't sound like you need them. They have other trays but they get spendy. I have a picture for you but I'm having a very hard time with this site right now.

Your grow is interesting. I hope it works for you. Sou is a lot like hempy only automated a bit. Nice

Did you make your drawings? What program is that? Pretty cool, and easier than Solidworks I'm sure.

If you ever talk to someone named David at BG (the owner) be sure to tell him Tod said hello

 

[multiVortex]

Your grow is interesting. I hope it works for you. Sou is a lot like hempy only automated a bit. Nice

Did you make your drawings? What program is that? Pretty cool, and easier than Solidworks I'm sure.

Thanks. It's just a concept right now, and something that had crossed my mind to tinker with just for the hell of it.

I like the Dutch bucket concept, but wondered if it could be improved at all. Kind of like going from a plastic pot to a fabric pot. You know how that works out, so why couldn't that be applied to a Dutch bucket? It might be easier to find a bucket that is close in size, and just cut it down. Not real sure, but who knows.


As for programs, I just used photoshop for that one.

 

[Stltoed]

Thanks. It's just a concept right now, and something that had crossed my mind to tinker with just for the hell of it.

I like the Dutch bucket concept, but wondered if it could be improved at all. Kind of like going from a plastic pot to a fabric pot. You know how that works out, so why couldn't that be applied to a Dutch bucket? It might be easier to find a bucket that is close in size, and just cut it down. Not real sure, but who knows.


As for programs, I just used photoshop for that one.

That's cool. Can't wait to see it.

I draw for a living. I had never seen a drawing like that... I had to know!

 

[Stltoed]

When you gonna pull the trigger on this thing?

 

[multiVortex]

Won't be until at least spring, as the tent it would go in is occupied until at least mid-Feb. It might not be until next fall, even. It just depends. I have a couple 7-10 day stretches out of town already for next summer, which isn't exactly conducive to a grow. (Unless you're a particular Hyena, lol.)

I'm alright with that though, as it gives me time to refine and figure out the system without a rush on picking the parts. If I could find round, or square buckets on the cheap that would snugly fit a fabric pot, I'd pick em up and cut off about the bottom 4" or so. Round, square, don't really matter. Maybe I'm thinking too small.

Typically, a dutch bucket is like a 4gal square bucket. Those are more tall than wide. I might be able to look a little wider, maybe a 10gal fabric pot, and something to go around it. Which really, all I'm looking to do here is make a hybrid dutch bucket where the pot is fabric instead of a plastic bucket. Get the air pruning of roots, but retain the rest of the dutch bucket aspects. Problem being, still need 3"-4" at the bottom to hold that pool of water that's in a dutch bucket. Get too much space around it, and now you're just basically doing something like an autopot or SIP.

If I can't line up the pieces right, I may do either standard dutch buckets or even a flood/drain setup.

At some point I'll get an autopot setup to give a go. If I do that then I'll want to run it a few times in a row, which limits all my tinkering on the side with different styles and such.

(Not that I'm tinkering now, since my "lab" tent is just auto's in promix.)

 

[multiVortex]

If you ever talk to someone named David at BG (the owner) be sure to tell him Tod said hello

I did put in an order through them the other day. Not for this, but I picked up an Under Current solo module, 8x5.5" lid, and 8 pots for it.

Going to be the base for my seedling/clone/mini-veg/whatever else setup.

Prices are good, and seems to be a good business. Shipping is for shit, but other than amazon it's going to be.

Which reminds me, once it ships and gets here, I should make a transformer thread for it. I'm kinda stoked, if you can't tell. It's going to be a lot of fun, and can do so much with it by just changing out the lid.

 

[Stltoed]

I did put in an order through them the other day. Not for this, but I picked up an Under Current solo module, 8x5.5" lid, and 8 pots for it.

Going to be the base for my seedling/clone/mini-veg/whatever else setup.

Prices are good, and seems to be a good business. Shipping is for shit, but other than amazon it's going to be.

Which reminds me, once it ships and gets here, I should make a transformer thread for it. I'm kinda stoked, if you can't tell. It's going to be a lot of fun, and can do so much with it by just changing out the lid.

Oh good! They are the very best in my opinion. Smart folks that really care about their customers. My hydro system is a repurposed Rainforest aeroponic system. It was my first real growing method. But, the power cord was wrong, they changed vendors and wound up with a bunch of returns. Anyway it didnt work. They replied to my email by phone in the early evening, on Sunday by phone. They got me the correct cord, but I had no time and started a DWC. I bought a chiller off of them. It showed up broken. I drove it to their shop, about 40 miles away, took it back and spent the next 20 minutes trying to find another. Their shipping is hit and miss. I usually have things shipped, but 4 gallons of nutrient ain't cheap to ship.

I always wanted an Under Currant system. I patterned my system after their under current design. Super simple. Yeah, the lid design is really clever. My only issue was the 6 site system was a little big for my space... just barely fit. What I would really like is a 4 site system with the larger pots and wider spacing

 

[Stltoed]

I did put in an order through them the other day. Not for this, but I picked up an Under Current solo module, 8x5.5" lid, and 8 pots for it.

Going to be the base for my seedling/clone/mini-veg/whatever else setup.

Prices are good, and seems to be a good business. Shipping is for shit, but other than amazon it's going to be.

Which reminds me, once it ships and gets here, I should make a transformer thread for it. I'm kinda stoked, if you can't tell. It's going to be a lot of fun, and can do so much with it by just changing out the lid.

I've probably written half of the reviews on the BG website. It's really not that big a deal, there aren't many on there. If you get a chance, take a look

 

[multiVortex]

I would love to have a real UC system too.

Here's the messed up thing about those.

I bought the Current Culture parts for what is an Under Current Solo Pro (8-site lid). The only piece I don't have that comes with it is the air pump and air line. For the whole "kit" Current Culture wants $499 for it, and most online retailers reflect that same price.

So I bought the individual parts: tub module, lid, net pots. Cost? $255, plus shipping. I figure shipping is a wash, as you'd pay that for the other too.


I can get 2 more lids (which I will get at least 1 more, if not 2) and still be under the cost of buying it as a full kit.

I can't see the air pump and air line being worth $250, can you?


So if you know what you're after, you can definitely cut some of the cost on one of their systems down.


The CC stuff is nice, but if you want it all bundled together, there's a price for it.

If someone were making a profit, then sure I could see the investment. But for a hobby? Meh, piece it together from their catalog and save a bit.

 

[Stltoed]

I would love to have a real UC system too.

Here's the messed up thing about those.

I bought the Current Culture parts for what is an Under Current Solo Pro (8-site lid). The only piece I don't have that comes with it is the air pump and air line. For the whole "kit" Current Culture wants $499 for it, and most online retailers reflect that same price.

So I bought the individual parts: tub module, lid, net pots. Cost? $255, plus shipping. I figure shipping is a wash, as you'd pay that for the other too.


I can get 2 more lids (which I will get at least 1 more, if not 2) and still be under the cost of buying it as a full kit.

I can't see the air pump and air line being worth $250, can you?


So if you know what you're after, you can definitely cut some of the cost on one of their systems down.


The CC stuff is nice, but if you want it all bundled together, there's a price for it.

If someone were making a profit, then sure I could see the investment. But for a hobby? Meh, piece it together from their catalog and save a bit.

It's too bad theres no break in price to buy the unit as a whole. 500 bones for an airline kit is shameful. I have a pump that does 1365 GPH at 2 PSI and it's about $225 last I checked. I can't imagine the tubing is so high tech that it warrants half the price. I considered using UC bulkheads, but I opted for heavier versions from Hayward.

Yeah. I like the fact you can build exactly what you want. Mine started as a DWC out of necessity. While asking questions at another forum I made it a RDWC. I learned a ton while over there, but it was a bit of a shark tank. There are a few things about mine that I like more than their configuration. No external return line for one. UC has scalability which is nice, but theres something to be said about DIY.