Help with lights

[Ambition]

Hello all, my last grow, my first actually, wasn't very much a success. I yielded about 15-20 grams... I was hoping for 4-6 ounces so you can see my disappointment. I think I gave her way too much nitrogen as some of her leaves felt really leathery and turned a dark green. Anyways to the point, I was using CFLs, and I've heard these are not the best when it comes to growing herb but everytime I look at the local hydroponic shops around here HPS setups are anywhere from 260-320$ and I really don't have that. I know you have to spend money to get good shit but are there any online sites with better deals or anyone selling used ones? I'm looking for a 1000watt HPS and MH. My roomate is hopefully going to be aquiring a grow card, which means we can grow up to 12 plants. I figured eventually I'd need two setups but for now I'll just get one and grow 6 plants. A 1000watt HPS and MH should be very efficient for 6 plants correct? And the MH and HPS can both be used in the same ballast and everything? Thank you for any help, it's much appreciated. Also, in our basement there are 40 watt ecolux lights, are these T12's or something? And if so would they be better than the CFLs for growing? Thanks you and please excuse my lack of knowledge, you gotta' start somewhere.

 

[BootUmAll]

Hello all, my last grow, my first actually, wasn't very much a success. I yielded about 15-20 grams... I was hoping for 4-6 ounces so you can see my disappointment. I think I gave her way too much nitrogen as some of her leaves felt really leathery and turned a dark green. Anyways to the point, I was using CFLs, and I've heard these are not the best when it comes to growing herb but everytime I look at the local hydroponic shops around here HPS setups are anywhere from 260-320$ and I really don't have that. I know you have to spend money to get good shit but are there any online sites with better deals or anyone selling used ones? I'm looking for a 1000watt HPS and MH. My roomate is hopefully going to be aquiring a grow card, which means we can grow up to 12 plants. I figured eventually I'd need two setups but for now I'll just get one and grow 6 plants. A 1000watt HPS and MH should be very efficient for 6 plants correct? And the MH and HPS can both be used in the same ballast and everything? Thank you for any help, it's much appreciated. Also, in our basement there are 40 watt ecolux lights, are these T12's or something? And if so would they be better than the CFLs for growing? Thanks you and please excuse my lack of knowledge, you gotta' start somewhere.

I have been growing for awhile. I learned most of what I believe from this rag and growing. I use CFL's exclusively for Veg. I buy them cheap at Home depot. I use 100 watt 5000k spectrum. I use 12" parabolic Dome (Home Depot) with an extension in its socket, a y there and an two additional y's there allowing for the use of 4 100 watt bulbs at each fixture site.

For Bloom I use 600 watt HPS they are available, with hood at HTG Supply for $195.00

When I use DWC I yield from 10 to 12 oz. per plant sometimes more depending on the strain. For ease of care I have recently gone from DWC to ProMix and my grow room ceiling got lowered in a bloom room move. Because of restricted height and a change in growing medium my yields are now 4 to 6 oz per plant. I am currently growing Northern Lights and UK Cheese.

 

[WizHigh]

Great advice

 

[BootUmAll]

Great advice

Thanks

 

[WizHigh]

I had to come back and rep you for this. You kept it simple and good info.

 

[BootUmAll]

reps back at ya

 

[BootUmAll]

I have done some investigating into LEDs. The information that I have gleaned from my investigations are that to cover the spectrum of light necessary to fulfill a plants needs it would cost about $40K. Now I can pay for a lot of electricity for that kind on $$. In addition the LEDs need to be replaced annually. To my way of thinking this operation is not feasible. If I'm wrong please correct me with what you consider the necessary LED lighting needs, a cost for same and how much of an improvement I would realize in my plants.

 

[cgkone]

how far away do you keep the led away from the plants

 

[WizHigh]

5 inches to a max of 1 foot

 

[Hosebomber]

I have done some investigating into LEDs. The information that I have gleaned from my investigations are that to cover the spectrum of light necessary to fulfill a plants needs it would cost about $40K. Now I can pay for a lot of electricity for that kind on $$. In addition the LEDs need to be replaced annually. ...

I'm not sure exactly what you researched, but your figures are grossly off. Likewise, you shouldn't have to replace your LEDs more than once every 4-6 years. Yes the tech and radiometric flux does increase every year, but that is no need to replace them. I generally replace mine... well I've actually yet to replace one in almost 5 years of testing. I tend to burn them up by testing something that I know is going to damage them or the drivers just to see how far I can push them. I still have some old 1 watt prolight opto's that I've been running for 5 years+ now with less than 15% degradation. HPS bulbs can have as much as 30% degradation in as little as 5 months.

To purchase the LED's needed to cover 6 square feet (more than enough area for 6 very large plants) would cost you around $600 for the LED's alone. Then you would need the drivers heat sinks and tools to assemble it. The process is not that complex. Knowing the wavelengths to use, ratios, and placement is a different story.

 

[cgkone]

so mr hosebomber you use LEDs

 

[Hosebomber]

I've been testing LED's for years now. I currently run a 100 watt HPS, a 250 watt HPS, a 400 watt switchable HPS/MH, some T5's and (at any given time) 5-15 test panels of LEDs. Covering everything from nettle to tomatoes to basil to clones to fish tanks. Most of the HPS lighting is for testing my panels against a known "normal" media.

 

[BootUmAll]

I've been testing LED's for years now. I currently run a 100 watt HPS, a 250 watt HPS, a 400 watt switchable HPS/MH, some T5's and (at any given time) 5-15 test panels of LEDs. Covering everything from nettle to tomatoes to basil to clones to fish tanks. Most of the HPS lighting is for testing my panels against a known "normal" media.

So what are the results and your conclusions so far?

 

[cgkone]

long run wise is it worth it to go LED

 

[Perfect Sun LED]

See my post cfl vs hps to see why cfl doesn't produce much bud.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

See my post cfl vs hps to see why cfl doesn't produce much bud.

To be honest the kelvin difference between cfl and a hps is quite different !


CFL for flowering are 2700k

HPS are normally 2100k some are 2050k


Thats quite a difference in colour spectrum aviable for plant growth in flowering !


The fact is cfl don't nearly pump out enough red spectrum thats purely why they lack on total yield of bud when compared to hps...

 

[Hosebomber]

So what are the results and your conclusions so far?

That's a rather vague question. I have a lot of different conclusions and results. If you've been around these forums enough you probably have a good idea of my thoughts.

1) R&D is very expensive!
2)You will get better overall results with a fuller spectrum.
3)Each species/strain has slightly different photo-receptors and ratios of them.
4)No one has found the magic ratio and blend of antic LEDs as of yet.
5)You can grow decently with white LEDs only (results may be limited).
6)LED growing requires different techniques than HPS or CFL growing does.
7)Good heat sinks are hard to find.
8)It is nearly impossible to be competitive in the market place without using a Chinese manufacturer for mass production.
9)Nearly all panel producers will lie or exaggerate their products claims and people believe them.
10)You can get better results with lower wattage from a custom panel built for your grow area than with a standardized panel.
11)The max power draw savings you can get over HPS is 50% and still produce (roughly) the same quantity and quality, with the current tech. (You can save additional power based on your specific room needs on cooling, exhaust fans, CO2 inputs, etc.)
12)Your drivers will (almost always) fail before your diodes.
13)Thermal management design is harder than circuitry design.
14)Optical design is harder than thermal management design.
15)It's cost prohibitive to embed advanced lighting control cycles (on a small scale).
16) Microprocessor programming is much harder than android, iphone, java, sql, pearl, ruby on rails, php, c, c++, or c#. (at least for me)
17)Having injection modes made is very expensive....
18)R&D is expensive! (Yes, I know I already said this but damn. I could have bought that new plane by now if I would have chosen to stick with flying.)

That's just a few of the many many lessons I have learned.

In the long run is it worth it? The is no easy answer for this.
For micro to medium size grows? Yes for sure.
For extremely large commercial grows? Only If you make your own panels and make them for you room. That is with the current cost of LEDs and heat sinks.

 

[WizHigh]

I agree with this. I told lots of ppl LED to me are for huge grows which will benefit with saving shit load of money on your electric bill and save you money further down the line. Its just like your paying for everything right now instead of 5 years later. To me its a pay now or pay later type of thing. But you break even regardless. So your grow better be huge to cover the cost with in your first harvest. maybe 2nd to break even.

 

[Perfect Sun LED]

To be honest the kelvin difference between cfl and a hps is quite different !


CFL for flowering are 2700k

HPS are normally 2100k some are 2050k


Thats quite a difference in colour spectrum aviable for plant growth in flowering !


The fact is cfl don't nearly pump out enough red spectrum thats purely why they lack on total yield of bud when compared to hps...

If you check the color spectrum of relative energy output of an HPS 2100k, they produce hardly any red spectrum 700nm, about 5% in 400w and 600w. 1000w the 700nm is almost nothing. Orange isn't much better 670nm is about 15% on a 600w, even lowe on 1000w and 400w.

Also, I will have to find the relative energy for a full spec cfl, but I am most sure they produce like 60% 700nm or 650nm.

 

[Hosebomber]

If you check the color spectrum of relative energy output of an HPS 2100k, they produce hardly any red spectrum 700nm, about 5% in 400w and 600w. 1000w the 700nm is almost nothing. Orange isn't much better 670nm is about 15% on a 600w, even lowe on 1000w and 400w.

Also, I will have to find the relative energy for a full spec cfl, but I am most sure they produce like 60% 700nm or 650nm.

You really need to do a lot more study on basic lighting. Light will give you some of the basic info you are missing. 700nm is the very far red and getting close to near IR. You don't want more than 5% of your light above 660nm. 660-670nm is often called Deep red not orange (which is closer to 610nm). No CFLs output will be less than 20% in the red region.