Nitrogen deficiency in seedlings? Pics

[fortphoenix]

hey guys, i transplanted these into hydroton on december 30th and even though i overwatered them for the first week or so theres been real slow growth and the bottom leaves (theres only 3 or 4 sets of leaves) have been drooping/drying and turning yellow/white/brown and dying off and the new growth keeps coming up with yellowish tips. and the older the growth is, the more yellowish and light green the part of the plant seems to get.. its hard as hell to find picture comparisons of deficiencies for plants this small, i think its a nitrogen deficiency (or maybe magnesium?) but they're so small its hard to tell and id hate to give them the extra nitrogen and be wrong, any thoughts?

strain- ak-48 by nirvana
water temp - 67, sterile res with 35% h2o2, 2 airstones, 20gal res
nutes - maxigro (i have "calmag plus" though)
ph- 5.8-5.9
ppm- 300
flood &drain in rapid rooter and hydroton, 1gal pots, flood 4x per day (every 6 hours)
400w hps on 24/7
canopy temps 74-78 humidity 35-60%

the one thing I've noticed is the 1 plant i re-transplanted (to check out the roots after overwatering) is now bigger and growing more then the other plant and the difference is the one i retransplanted is deeper in the pot then the other and the rapid rooter stays moist 24/7 whereas the other plants rapid rooter is bone dry, any comments or thoughts on that? also, the one i retransplanted has a few tiny red spots on one of the leaves if that means anything...either way, they're both showing the same type of deficiency. any help is appreciated!!

 

[fortphoenix]

please people, not all at once!!

 

[Prouncer]

I think it is not nutrient deficiency because they still don't need it. I would try without adding nutrient some time.

 

[Papageno]

pH issues still ...

The seedlings have plenty of nutes for longer than that. They do not need or want nutes until they are taller to begin with.

But the pH is wrong so the nutes that are already there are not getting up there.


How well did you wash out the medium before using it?

 

[fortphoenix]

pH issues still ...

The seedlings have plenty of nutes for longer than that. They do not need or want nutes until they are taller to begin with.

But the pH is wrong so the nutes that are already there are not getting up there.


How well did you wash out the medium before using it?

how could a 5.8-5.9 ph be wrong in hydro? although, someone did recommend i bring the ph down to 5.5... but i washed the hydroton very thoroughly, i washed then dried them 3 times so they're quite clean. I've even cleaned/sterilzied my tray twice to make sure there was no hydroton sediment hanging around in the tray. another thing, I'm also afraid the plant that has the rapid rooter deeper in the pot (the one growing way faster) is going to get overwatered once i start flooding more often. you think i should take the plant out and reposition it or you think should just keep both plugs where they're at and see how they make out? sort of like an experiment, even though I'm really not trying to lose anymore seeds lol the plant thats clearly barely growing is the one with a super dry rapid rooter that isn't touching the water but that one was also way smaller/slower from the start, any thoughts on that? thank you for all your tips and help thus far

 

[Papageno]

Naw you are good I thought you were reposting. The bad leaves wont recover so worry about the new growth. That looks good I think. A little nute burn but not bad yet. You should be in just pHd water at that age.

In hydro you want closer to 6.2 fore veg as that aids in the correct nute absorption and closer to bloom it drops down and by near end of bloom we want it fairly low. It is about trying to get the right nutes in there so lots of Nitrogen early on and less later. Below I will post a chart with lots of stuff on proper enviro conditions through the grow. ph starts High for Nitrogen and ends low to try and not allow so much in and aid in the others. Also take note of the EC line and how fast it drops off.

And over watering is a concern. There are a lot of variables but let the rooting plug dry out between watering for now. not dry out for day. wait until you think it is dried out and then give some. But you want the rots to go searching for water. When you over water the least you are doing is making an underdeveloped root ball. Very bad long term but easily overcome in hydro.

 

[neon green]

Mine seems not to have posted..... I looks like a calmag issue. Its going from bottom to top. The leaves that feed your seedling are wax it looks like to me. That means it will NOT transfer to the plant. You need to feed that baby. Very lightly but since your food leaves are not doing what they were designed to do since they are wax.

 

[fortphoenix]

Naw you are good I thought you were reposting. The bad leaves wont recover so worry about the new growth. That looks good I think. A little nute burn but not bad yet. You should be in just pHd water at that age.

In hydro you want closer to 6.2 fore veg as that aids in the correct nute absorption and closer to bloom it drops down and by near end of bloom we want it fairly low. It is about trying to get the right nutes in there so lots of Nitrogen early on and less later. Below I will post a chart with lots of stuff on proper enviro conditions through the grow. ph starts High for Nitrogen and ends low to try and not allow so much in and aid in the others. Also take note of the EC line and how fast it drops off
And over watering is a concern. There are a lot of variables but let the rooting plug dry out between watering for now. not dry out for day. wait until you think it is dried out and then give some. But you want the rots to go searching for water. When you over water the least you are doing is making an underdeveloped root ball. Very bad long term but easily overcome in hydro.

i like that chart and i have noticed my ph likes to drift up but that could be because of a little bacteria/algae problem i been having but I'm just worried about overwatering the plug thats deeper into the pot once i start flooding more often and I'm afraid the plants going to have a lot of size once i finally do have to transplant but now i have another issue with the northern lights i just sprouted like a week ago. which i wanted to ask you, what does the curling up of leaf tips mean? one of my northern lights was severely underwatered (leafs drooping and touching the stem) so watering them and in about an hour they popped back but their tips seem like they're drying out and they're pointed up which happened to me on a previous plant and i cant find any info on it. i took these pics yesterday, 2 of them are updates on the ak and 2 are pics of the Northern lights in question

 

[fortphoenix]

Mine seems not to have posted..... I looks like a calmag issue. Its going from bottom to top. The leaves that feed your seedling are wax it looks like to me. That means it will NOT transfer to the plant. You need to feed that baby. Very lightly but since your food leaves are not doing what they were designed to do since they are wax.

yeah from bottom to top and the leaf tips are yellowing with very slow growth but what do you mean it looks like wax and "it will not transfer to the plant"? are you saying i cant foliar feed or something?

 

[neon green]

I can't really tell from the pics but the first set of leaves, the half circle ones. They look like they are wax. Am I mistaken? I've had seeds from bomb seeds that were yellow as soon as they poped, they were a thick yellow wax. I had to feed those right from the drop. The only difference that makes is you have to feed earlier. Either way if the very bottom leaves are wilted, you need to feed. Its eating its self from the bottom up to buy time untill it finds what it needs.

 

[Papageno]

Curling up can happen for a few things. At that age they are very sensitive and lots of things look similar. Commonly it can be from too intense OR too hot of a light. But they are robust and will make it through if you make sure the room is humid and warm.

I failed to ask about the seed stock but Neon made me think maybe you are using Femed seeds. If so those are genetically inferior and have some issues. Not a big deal and the work decent enough just I have heard of some really messed up things and very poor looking seeds from both the seed banks and growers about them. I have only used them once on Autos which is even worse. They work fine I have a friend who grows them exclusively and has done some for many many years and never had a problem.


Anyway If you were using good healthy seed you would still be to early to need nutes.

But again you will be fine. Seeds have enough in them to get the plant fairly far otherwise plants wouldn't grow in the wild. Keep them on medium light in warm humid conditions and very lightly watered until we have some real fan leaves and you will be good to go.

Flood and Drain is a more advanced technique, not recommended for beginners. So have patience as you are taking a drink from a fire hose.

 

[neon green]

Just hope they grow faster than the deficiency if you don't feed. The choice is yours. I think you'll be fine either way judging by the pics. But if it starts outrunning your growth, feed. I'm a firm believer that in nature, nature has nutes already in the soil. Soil isn't a sterile media like a flood and drain system. If its there naturally, there's nothing wrong with it being there in an artificial environment. They will only take up what they need in ratios they need. Just make sure your ratios are right. I don't have as much rep but, as you can see I go kind of against the grain.

 

[smokeloot]

why not just use normal ground dirt. always works for me

 

[fortphoenix]

Curling up can happen for a few things. At that age they are very sensitive and lots of things look similar. Commonly it can be from too intense OR too hot of a light. But they are robust and will make it through if you make sure the room is humid and warm.

I failed to ask about the seed stock but Neon made me think maybe you are using Femed seeds. If so those are genetically inferior and have some issues. Not a big deal and the work decent enough just I have heard of some really messed up things and very poor looking seeds from both the seed banks and growers about them. I have only used them once on Autos which is even worse. They work fine I have a friend who grows them exclusively and has done some for many many years and never had a problem.


Anyway If you were using good healthy seed you would still be to early to need nutes.

But again you will be fine. Seeds have enough in them to get the plant fairly far otherwise plants wouldn't grow in the wild. Keep them on medium light in warm humid conditions and very lightly watered until we have some real fan leaves and you will be good to go.

Flood and Drain is a more advanced technique, not recommended for beginners. So have patience as you are taking a drink from a fire hose.

yeah I'm using feminized seeds, the AK is from nirvana and the northern lights is from sensi the ak seeds were small and light brown and probably shouldve been returned but fuck it i guess it just sucks seeing other grows have fan leaves like 3 inches long on the first set of leaves and mine are only like a half in and growing slow as fuck lol i actually took the AK that was growing super slow (the one with the rapid rooter higher in the pot) to look at the roots and they weren't white but they werently really like slimy and they didnt smell like nothing either but they were kinda brownish so i soaked the entire pug the submerged all the roots in peroxide and poured peroxide water over all the hydroton and re planted them a little deeper back in the pots. even though i fucked up overwatering the roots are absolute shit for a 3.5 week old plants (as in size) but ill post some pics of them anyway

 

[fortphoenix]

Just hope they grow faster than the deficiency if you don't feed. The choice is yours. I think you'll be fine either way judging by the pics. But if it starts outrunning your growth, feed. I'm a firm believer that in nature, nature has nutes already in the soil. Soil isn't a sterile media like a flood and drain system. If its there naturally, there's nothing wrong with it being there in an artificial environment. They will only take up what they need in ratios they need. Just make sure your ratios are right. I don't have as much rep but, as you can see I go kind of against the grain.

what do you mean? are you suggesting i bump up the ppms more? and i agree with you which is why I'm confident they'll survive but i just want to get down to the bottom of whatever deficiency I'm having id say my nutes are pretty balanced, i used maxigro by GH but nah i asked on another site and theres people who told me to bump up my ppms more to like 4-5 hundred so i bumped it up to 400 to be safe and when i change my res tomorrow I'm probably going to bump the ppms to 500, I'm just confused on if i should add my cal-mag plus because people keep telling me its a nitrogen deficiency or a magnesium deficiency and the cal mag plus has nitrogen in it

 

[neon green]

Is there a reason you wouldn't add your calmag? That's your plants sunscreen and builds chlorophyll. That's why the deficiency goes from bottom to top if I'm not mistaken. Its taking mag from the oldest leaves to protect the new growth and build more of its self closer to the light. I don't know a lot about flood and drain systems, I use drain to waste. I also think you'll be fine at 1200 ppm. I don't think you can foce the lady to take up more than she can use. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[neon green]

Also just to clarify, when I say something like "I think you'd be ok at 1500ppm." That doesn't mean just toss furts in there with crazy ratios. You have to use common sense. I've seen some people do WEIRD stuff on here, and am trusting that you've dome a bit of research on your own and didn't sleep through science class in school.

 

[Papageno]

I don't do flood and drain so I am out...but in DWC 1500 is like at peak photosynthesis levels with very bushy plants and a very good setup. Most people get by not going over 800.

I have seen many seeds get full big 3 sets of fan leaves without nutes in DWC. I don't run fems though...I have done 2 auto fems and I still have 3 from the 5 pack. Not very impressed with how they work myself. I have a buddy who only runs fems but he has a small grow just for himself so it is not a big deal...and he runs non autos so he can veg them as long as it takes to get them big enough to yield like a regular.

Best of luck and if you do want to ask me a question later on not related to Flood and Drain just PM me.

 

[fortphoenix]

Also just to clarify, when I say something like "I think you'd be ok at 1500ppm." That doesn't mean just toss furts in there with crazy ratios. You have to use common sense. I've seen some people do WEIRD stuff on here, and am trusting that you've dome a bit of research on your own and didn't sleep through science class in school.

Is there a reason you wouldn't add your calmag? That's your plants sunscreen and builds chlorophyll. That's why the deficiency goes from bottom to top if I'm not mistaken. Its taking mag from the oldest leaves to protect the new growth and build more of its self closer to the light. I don't know a lot about flood and drain systems, I use drain to waste. I also think you'll be fine at 1200 ppm. I don't think you can foce the lady to take up more than she can use. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

no after my research i would never put 1500ppm on a seedling this small and from everywhere i read the plants can and will overfeed themselves which is where nuteburn comes from, correct? an analogy i read was plants are like dogs, they'll keep eating until they make themselves sick but i havent added the cal mag because Ive been under the impression its a nitrogen deficiency