I completely disagree with these statements. From my understanding when tumors become large enough they need to develop their own blood supply, subsequently, I would think that if you're trying to treat this scenario then getting it in to your bloodstream is the best place for delta-9-thc, preferably with regular dosing so the delta-9-thc is replaced as it's metabolised.
Olive oil extract update
- Thread starter PsyCro
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I completely disagree with these statements. From my understanding when tumors become large enough they need to develop their own blood supply, subsequently, I would think that if you're trying to treat this scenario then getting it in to your bloodstream is the best place for delta-9-thc, preferably with regular dosing so the delta-9-thc is replaced as it's metabolised.
Welcome to the conversation fookinel. The cells we're trying to destroy aren't in the bloodstream. One of the ways cannabinoids destroy tumor cells is through antiangiogenesis. The cannabinoids inhibit the tumor cell's ability to grow any new blood vessels, effectively starving the tumor cell as the rest of the destructive agenda gets played out for the dismantling of the cell components (apoptosis - programmed cellular suicide). The cannabinoid receptors aren't in the bloodstream, they're in the CNS and the immune system. It's those receptors we're sending those phytocannabinoids to find. Our hope in using carrier oils and lecithin is to more swiftly fascilitate the absorption from the bloodstream into these systems.
Thank you, SweetSue!
I can see where I made a mistake in my post. I meant in the treatment of tumors that already have their own blood vessels! My apologies.
With that out of the way, my understanding is that angiogenesis is the formation of new blood vessels. Antiangiogenesis is stopping the formation of new blood vessels. Subsequently, antiangiogenesis will aid in slowing or possibly halting the growth of a tumor, however, I don't see how this will kill cancer cells. Apoptosis, as you mentioned, is the process of cell death that cannabinoids have been shown to induce in cancer cells in vitro.
The instance I meant to describe was a sufficiently large tumor that has undergone angiogenesis and has already created its own blood vessels. Here, I would expect that getting delta-9-thc in to the bloodstream would be most effective as the antiangiogenesis properties of cannabinoids won't help shrink the tumor, they will stop it growing, sure, but getting delta-9-thc in to the bloodstream and delivered to the tumor's blood supply should deliver delta-9-thc right to the tumor cells and hopefully induce apoptosis.
The point I was trying to make is that I don't agree with a blanket statement that the bloodstream is the second worst place to get the cannabinoids in to.
Ideally by now we would know exactly what we need by way of cannabinoids/terpenes/etc., know where they need to be delivered, and how best to deliver them there. However, the research side of this seems to be seriously lacking and people who want to help are forced to make these best guesses and use logical reasoning to try and reach the best solutions. I'm simply using my logical reasoning to suggest that I think there are instances where you want cannabinoids in the bloodstream.
Hence why I was trying to see what people thought about combining extraction methods and using liposomal encapsulation to help deliver the extracts to wherever they're needed. I'm hoping I can get my Blue Blood, Aurora Indica, and Black Destroyer seeds to germinate so I can try combining an ethanol extraction with an olive oil extraction and liposomal encapsulation for the person I would like to help out. I'm still not sure what ratios of each I should be aiming for and have been having trouble getting a decent lecithin (around here it's all soy based and in granules).
I looked back at the thread and saw that you and PsyCro started off questioning in a very civil, and more importantly, constructive tone. Ideally I want to see that return as I believe what PsyCro has done is impressive, if we can combine it with what others have done (which is also at least as impressive) then perhaps we can work towards even better and more reliable treatment methods. Wouldn't we all like to be able to stick a properly prepared cannabis extraction in a capsule for the patient to swallow (as opposed to other delivery options) and be confident it will help them?
I couldn't agree with you more on the importance of keeping this discussion going in a civil manner. I too believe the greatest benefit may come from a combination of oils, or, at the very least, a protocol that uses doses that are varied in the oil chosen for each dose. I've not been able to reconcile using only CCO when the process destroys Myrcene, possibly the most valuable player on the team, not to mention the other components destroyed in the process. I suppose we add myrcene in with the inclusion of mangoes in the protocol, but it still makes me uneasy to not have its cannabis configuration as part of the meds.
I think we'd be smart to include as many different delivery systems into the healing plan as possible.
I get your point about the bloodstream and I agree there too. I amend my statement to include the bloodstream as a desirable pathway to the tumors. Hadn't thought of it that way. The value of having more brains thinking it all through. Thank you for opening my mind.
It's unfortunate that the grant proposals to study cannabis sit waiting for our politicians to catch up to the urgent need. Thankfully we work with a plant that can't negatively impact your health, but it behooves us to keep learning all we can out here in the trenches. People are fighting to live out here while they play power games in our legislatures.
Liquid sunflower lecithin is available on line. I haven't been able to find it in local stores, and I live in a major metro area, so I'd look on line for that. I'd be interested in hearing how your treatment goes when you get around to doing so. Please track me down at that point. I'm easy to find.
I'd encourage you to look up Cajun when you're ready to start for possible assistance in working out those ratios and setting a protocol for your friend. I'm sure there's a way to do what you suggest, but you might be better off using the mixes separately, at different dosing times.
I'm still new to this, hence my recommendation that you speak to someone who's actually trained to do this professionally.
My last resounding "YES!" is to your thought that a well-designed, strongly bioavailible capsule makes everyone's life so much simpler. That's what I think many of us, myself included, are hoping to work out.
I think we'd be smart to include as many different delivery systems into the healing plan as possible.
I get your point about the bloodstream and I agree there too. I amend my statement to include the bloodstream as a desirable pathway to the tumors. Hadn't thought of it that way. The value of having more brains thinking it all through. Thank you for opening my mind.
It's unfortunate that the grant proposals to study cannabis sit waiting for our politicians to catch up to the urgent need. Thankfully we work with a plant that can't negatively impact your health, but it behooves us to keep learning all we can out here in the trenches. People are fighting to live out here while they play power games in our legislatures.
Liquid sunflower lecithin is available on line. I haven't been able to find it in local stores, and I live in a major metro area, so I'd look on line for that. I'd be interested in hearing how your treatment goes when you get around to doing so. Please track me down at that point. I'm easy to find.
I'd encourage you to look up Cajun when you're ready to start for possible assistance in working out those ratios and setting a protocol for your friend. I'm sure there's a way to do what you suggest, but you might be better off using the mixes separately, at different dosing times. I'm still new to this, hence my recommendation that you speak to someone who's actually trained to do this professionally.
My last resounding "YES!" is to your thought that a well-designed, strongly bioavailible capsule makes everyone's life so much simpler. That's what I think many of us, myself included, are hoping to work out.
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- #125
Woohoo.. gettin' right down rowdy in here! Definitely need to slow it down a notch, step back, breathe, and get back to it with more info. I feel we're feeling for something in the dark, when it might be better to sit back and wait for daylight. The metaphor meaning get back to it once we have some more literature for all of us to look over and plug into the equation. At least that's what i need to make sense of it all. As someone mentioned earlier, to understand to mechanism..
I only just now realized that you guys are actually using lecithin.. but up until now i thought that was actually popular combined with MCFA coconut oil for a quicker and stronger buzz. I'll have to look into that it seems as well, to understand it better.. along with scrounge around for a looot of other stuff.
But just to make something clear, i don't believe anyone here is doing it 'wrong', as stated before, many methods are working for many people, for all types of illnesses. But anyone who wants to really participate in this thread needs to bring something concrete to the table, something we can all look at and study. I apologize if i've missed and went over something already stated as fact, without doing the research to understand it.. when i get a chance i WILL try to dig something up, but i hope i won't be the only one trying to do so, even though i fully understand that that's not an easy task and not everyone has the time to sit in front of a screen.. i know i certainly won't have very much time in the next week or two.
I only just now realized that you guys are actually using lecithin.. but up until now i thought that was actually popular combined with MCFA coconut oil for a quicker and stronger buzz. I'll have to look into that it seems as well, to understand it better.. along with scrounge around for a looot of other stuff.
But just to make something clear, i don't believe anyone here is doing it 'wrong', as stated before, many methods are working for many people, for all types of illnesses. But anyone who wants to really participate in this thread needs to bring something concrete to the table, something we can all look at and study. I apologize if i've missed and went over something already stated as fact, without doing the research to understand it.. when i get a chance i WILL try to dig something up, but i hope i won't be the only one trying to do so, even though i fully understand that that's not an easy task and not everyone has the time to sit in front of a screen.. i know i certainly won't have very much time in the next week or two.
I'm with you. I have a massive project of my own getting off the ground tomorrow, but part of that project includes pinning down what we're trying to learn about the efficacy of tacking without a carrier. That is what we're questioning here, isn't it? IMO, what would be most helpful here are some lab reports with serum levels. Not that we're likely to find such a gold mine in today's political atmosphere, but somewhere out there must be doctors and clinics compiling this information.
I'll keep an eye out for future posts and I'll be here with bells on if I find anything relevant to the discussion.
I just learned that the Bio Bomb adaptation we use for capsules (incorporating flaxseed oil and lecithin) can also be used with suppositories and tacking. Now, I've personally not made oil yet, still waiting on the harvest, so I haven't had the opportunity yet to test these combinations. That's a future goal. But yes, PsyCro, some of us will be at least trying this tweak with tacking. I may be the only one, come to think of it.
It's not a quicker, stronger buzz we're working for. Again, feeling high does not equate to effective therapeutic dose. We're working for a therapeutic dose with a controlled, almost imperceptible level of euphoria.
I'll keep an eye out for future posts and I'll be here with bells on if I find anything relevant to the discussion.
I just learned that the Bio Bomb adaptation we use for capsules (incorporating flaxseed oil and lecithin) can also be used with suppositories and tacking. Now, I've personally not made oil yet, still waiting on the harvest, so I haven't had the opportunity yet to test these combinations. That's a future goal. But yes, PsyCro, some of us will be at least trying this tweak with tacking. I may be the only one, come to think of it.
It's not a quicker, stronger buzz we're working for. Again, feeling high does not equate to effective therapeutic dose. We're working for a therapeutic dose with a controlled, almost imperceptible level of euphoria.
oh. I think you only partially disagree. probably because I thought i had editted a phrase in one place and added it in another - but instead I left it out!
you quote "I don't think that is the right question. Bioavailability is measured as delivery to the bloodstream. If the liver is the worst place for Delta9 THC, the bloodstream is the second worst place for Delta9 THC. Unless one is trying to get high."
What I thought I said was "If the liver is the worst place for Delta9 THC to hang around, the bloodstream is the second worst place for Delta9 THC to hang around."
Sorry for not being clear. Bioavailabiliity is about circulating in the blood so it can be available where needed.
Our most important goal is delivery. How much is circulating on the blood highway is a slightly crude way of measuring how much gets delivered. With the 'liver tax' each lap around the blood highway, we want to get those delivery trucks off the highway and out for final delivery as soon as possible. - Sorry for muddying the waters.
You see, you may not think you're experienced but you may be more than you give yourself credit for! I don't know much about the terpenes, I've obviously heard about the entourage effect and the claims that they work with the cannabinoids. I can't dispute these claims and have decided that instead of trying to understand which ones are most important and how it all works I'd rather focus on methods that keep the terpenes intact and ideally add back in the cannabinoids which the CCO extraction methods seem to be particularly efficient at extracting (I realise it's through the decarboxylation process, but I think we understand what I mean!).
Absolutely!
My thoughts exactly. I would like nothing more than to see the most experienced and knowledgeable ones around here working to improve their methods. They're all on the same team and all trying to achieve the same goals. There's no point in arguing about who has the better method, instead we should all be trying to see how we can incorporate information from all these methods to move forward.
Don't get me started on modern medicine and bureaucracy! I could rant on for ages, but it would not be productive so I'll spare you all that one
I'm in Australia and the only place I've found liquid sunflower lecithin is online. For now I'm going to see how we go with the granules to keep us going until I can get the liquid sunflower lecithin as it'll take a little while to deliver
I'd be interested in hearing how your treatment goes when you get around to doing so. Please track me down at that point. I'm easy to find.
It'll most likely be a long way off. While I've managed to get CCO and will talk to this person about an olive oil extract, I'm still just trying to get my first seed to germinate. Once I get one to germinate I can then try more and, well, I'm guessing you already know how long it'll take from there!
You're more experienced than I am!
Agreed! One thought I had was the possibility of enteric coating to protect the contents (be it a CCO/olive oil extraction/combination of the two) through the acidic environment found in the stomach. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of anything off the shelf like your average gelatin capsule that provides an enteric coating.
If only it was available! I believe it will be difficult (if not impossible) to get to the bottom of all this without adequate studies. By that I mean enough people to remove dietary/lifestyle/genetic factors, proper control of what goes in, and proper testing of how whatever goes in is absorbed/metabolised/distributed/etc.
I'd also like to see a lot more information on lecithin and liposomal encapsulation. In cajuncelt's thread the suggestion is to combine the CCO, flaxseed oil, and lecithin and refrigerate for 24 hours. When it comes to liposomal vitamin c they tend to use a blender and ultrasonic cleaner. It makes me wonder if the ultrasonic cleaning process would help with the encapsulation in cajuncelt's method. From memory cajuncelt also mentioned much earlier in this thread that olive oil is a good carrier, which has me thinking if we can combine all of this we use your olive oil extract as a sort of "pre-charged" carrier oil for a CCO with cajuncelt's liposomal encapsulation to get it all where it's needed
One of the big things I see with the method you've outlined is efficiency. If my maths is correct and the information I'm reading is correct then it's a big improvement in yield!
To put things in perspective you've suggested that you use ~400 grams of fresh material in ~ 1 litre of olive oil. I'm guessing you get close to the full litre of oil back and your mother in law was taking ~15 ml/day. This equates to around 66 days from 400 grams of fresh material.
You've also stated that ~400 grams of fresh material equates to ~100 grams of dried material. From my understanding, ~454 grams (1 pound) of dry material can be converted to ~60 grams of CCO. At a dose of 1 gram/day CCO this equates to 60 days from ~454 grams of dried material or ~1800 grams of fresh material!
I would have thought that at the very least sacrificing some fresh material to make an olive oil extraction and then using the rest to dry and make a CCO before finally combining the two would make a huge increase in the amount of usable medicinal compounds
I don't think anyone is doing the wrong thing, but I also think there's a lot of passion and some miscommunication when talking about what different people are doing. I'm very interested in seeing any research I can get my hands on. I have the time and am happy to look, however, I'll need some direction as to what I'm looking for and where
I understand what you're saying and particularly like your terminology (which I'm going to steal)! Down here we have what we call the "Australia Tax"
We often look at what Americans pay for things (especially tech items) and after the exchange rate work out our "Australia Tax" that we have to pay on top So this raises interesting points. The way I see it pretty much no matter what method is chosen it seems to have to enter the bloodstream at some point and once it does that we have to pay the liver tax, so, how do we best avoid this? For example, liposomal encapsulation has been shown to improve bioavailability of various compounds, does it do this purely through improving absorption or can it also help with reducing or possibly even eliminating the liver tax for a period of time? If it's only via absorption could we then continue taking supplements such as apigenin and amentoflavone to promote competitive inhibition over a longer period of time, keeping the liver busy so the cannabinoids/terpenes/etc can continue to circulate until they find their intended target? In fact, is it possible that this is one of the mechanisms that terpenes help, the entourage effect?
I understand what you're saying and particularly like your terminology (which I'm going to steal)! Down here we have what we call the "Australia Tax"
So this raises interesting points. The way I see it pretty much no matter what method is chosen it seems to have to enter the bloodstream at some point and once it does that we have to pay the liver tax, so, how do we best avoid this? For example, liposomal encapsulation has been shown to improve bioavailability of various compounds, does it do this purely through improving absorption or can it also help with reducing or possibly even eliminating the liver tax for a period of time? If it's only via absorption could we then continue taking supplements such as apigenin and amentoflavone to promote competitive inhibition over a longer period of time, keeping the liver busy so the cannabinoids/terpenes/etc can continue to circulate until they find their intended target? In fact, is it possible that this is one of the mechanisms that terpenes help, the entourage effect?
The Bio Bomb mix (flaxseed oil and lecithin mixed with the CCO) causes enzymes to react, freeing the access of the mix into the membrane lipid bilayer of the blood-brain barrier. Super absorption. I have no knowledge of the mix having any special effect on the liver, but what a provocative thought.
Since most treatments are dosing close enough together to keep pressure on the diseased cells, if you're pre-dosing with the supplements I'd assume the levels of apigenin and amentoflavone would be fairly high all the time, wouldn't you?
We're just now beginning to learn how truly important the terpenes are. It's looking like the terpenes tell the cannabinoids what to do. There's an interesting thought.
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- #132
Fookinel: If you want to read up on extractions, take a look at Skunk Pharm Research LLC | Research and Development one safety meeting at a time
Either way, ethanol or olive oil, you're getting a very complete extraction, just figure out what works better for you. With olive oil you're not extracting chlorophyll which is a plus, and it prooobably protects some terpenes better than ethanol. But with ethanol, you can later mix the CCO with olive oil for much smaller dosing, and it makes any kind of mixing more flexible, up to you. Can't really go wrong either way.
Other than that, with olive oil, from 1L of starting material you will end up with 0.85L.. i do, every time. Alcohols and esters, or whatever volatile part of the oil thats in there, evaporate, and if you strain the finished material using hot water as i do, no worries about leaving any oil behind, maybe a few drops.
Either way, ethanol or olive oil, you're getting a very complete extraction, just figure out what works better for you. With olive oil you're not extracting chlorophyll which is a plus, and it prooobably protects some terpenes better than ethanol. But with ethanol, you can later mix the CCO with olive oil for much smaller dosing, and it makes any kind of mixing more flexible, up to you. Can't really go wrong either way.
Other than that, with olive oil, from 1L of starting material you will end up with 0.85L.. i do, every time. Alcohols and esters, or whatever volatile part of the oil thats in there, evaporate, and if you strain the finished material using hot water as i do, no worries about leaving any oil behind, maybe a few drops.
SAMtheAPman
New Member
Any idea if the vegetable oil that you use for this extraction technique matters? I don't really like heating olive oil much and would prefer to use coconut oil. Does anyone know if this will affect the potency, bioavailability, etc?
The choice of oil determines where the cannabinoids get absorbed.
Coconut oil is a medium chained fatty acid, so it gets sent straight to the liver, so if you're treating liver cancer then coconut oil is the way to go.
Otherwise you want a long-chained fatty acid (LCFA) like olive or flaxseed or grape (if the disease is estrogen based, as in some breast cancers, you want to avoid flaxseed). Long-chained fatty acids are absorbed into the lymphatic system, and so they avoid the first pass of the liver and are more bioavailable.
Liver cancer, coconut oil. Anything else use a LCFA.
Sam, are you using supplements to create competitive inhibition?
I should have realised that myself! I'd been thinking about less frequent dosing and forgot that the regimens around here are often 5 or so times a day, if you added additional supplements you wouldn't have time to do anything else!
Okay, so you get about 0.85L, that only reduces the original 66 days to 56 days, that's still pretty impressive from 400 g of fresh material!
What was the dosage recipe from start to finish? From memory you said your mother in law was on 15 ml of this olive oil extract a day, however, what did she start out on? How much per dose and how many doses per day? If it was less to begin with how did you increase the dose up to 15 ml/day?
I'd already looked at Skunk Pharm Research! I had another look and did find something I think is interesting
This page refers to a paper I found here which looks at the serum levels of some cannabinoids and metabolites from Dronabinol and extracts (both heated and unheated).
The interesting part is that the unheated extraction with lower cannabinoids and higher cannabinoid acids had a greater Cmax, AUC, and Tmax for THC and CBD than the heated extraction (as well as lower levels for 11-OH-THC and THC-COOH).
Having said that I'm not sure if those higher values of THC/CBD refer to the cannabinoid or the cannabinoid + cannabinoid acid (earlier in the paper THCtot = THC + THCA-A and CBDtot = CBD + CBDA). If THC/CBD in the results just refer to the cannabinoid then it means that the unheated extraction achieved a higher peak level of cannabinoids in the plasma and a greater area under the curve than the heated extraction even though it had less cannabinoids in the extract.
Unfortunately the paper didn't describe the heated and unheated extraction methods....
To add on what SweetSue said, you may also like to consider what temperature you're planning to heat the oil to. This page should give you some information including a link to the smoke points of various oils. The only note I would add is depending on what you plan to do you may prefer to follow that page and use dried material or follow PsyCro and use fresh material. The fresher material should be higher in terpenes than dried material.
Additionally, the supplements for competitive inhibition (apigenin and amentoflavone) are potent cytochrome inhibitors which means they may interact with other medications.
When the person I'm helping spoke to the doctors they couldn't guarantee that those supplements wouldn't interact with other medications, which is a shame as apigenin looks to be useful in cancer treatment in and of itself.
The regimens are like that to keep constant pressure on the errant cells. The cannabinoids only have a 4-5 hour window of opportunity so continual renewal is desirable. That means a continuous cycle of dosing, either with oil or supplements.
It does seem a little crazy, doesn't it? It certainly demands a high level of dedication, but then it's a matter of life and death for many. That would be a strong motivator.
I wonder though, how long the supplements are active in the system? Would it be possible to dose them less frequently but in higher doses? That would make life a bit easier. I'll have to look into that tomorrow.
PsyCro, I have a comment about your olive oil extraction product.
You take 400 g of fresh weed, which is roughly 100 g of dry weed, and extract it with 1 liter of olive oil.
If we make CO from 100 g of dry weed we get ca 14 g of CO.
Say the amount of goodies is still 14% from your 100 g of dry weed. So you will have 14 g in 1 liter of olive oil, which makes the final concentration to be 1,4% (14 in 1000). So in 1 g suppository there would be 14 mg (0,014 g) of cannabinoids. It is too diluted. We can not use 10 gram suppositories, they would be too big.
Or am I wrong?
You take 400 g of fresh weed, which is roughly 100 g of dry weed, and extract it with 1 liter of olive oil.
If we make CO from 100 g of dry weed we get ca 14 g of CO.
Say the amount of goodies is still 14% from your 100 g of dry weed. So you will have 14 g in 1 liter of olive oil, which makes the final concentration to be 1,4% (14 in 1000). So in 1 g suppository there would be 14 mg (0,014 g) of cannabinoids. It is too diluted. We can not use 10 gram suppositories, they would be too big.
Or am I wrong?
I wouldn't say crazy, there's a lot of logic in frequent dosing, it's certainly hectic though! I think most people would rather multiple dose cannabis oil than more traditional treatments and the associated side effects
My gut feeling would be smaller more frequent supplement doses are better.
