Adding products that contain beneficial microbes, bacteria, teas is a myth: change my mind!

[MackMurder]

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm already convinced it's a a scam and or extremely misleading to growers.
I'm curious to see who can convince me otherwise with scientific studies, or side by side grows.

I see alot of these "beneficial bacteria/microbe/fungi/nematode products saying they'll recharge your depleted soil or "get your living soil going again"

I'm curious about the science of this and if you can provide that considered me surprised.

Each handful of organic living super soil has millions of beneficial bacteria, microbes, nematodes and fungi. They feed on the organic matter and drop NPK for your plants.

Ok so that's established.
but here's the kicker.......

Microbes die out in unfavorable soil conditions example environmental conditions or they run out of food. They don't multiply if the soil can't sustain them.

So adding more life to a medium that can't support it in the first place isnt gonna do anything.
Logic or common sense would suggest that the medium couldn't preserve its microbes to beging with so what does adding more solve? Nothing.
Now that's just common sense.

Now alot of these companies tell you they add only the proper bacteria, fungi, and microbial life.....but that is an actual lie. They ballpark it.

These soil companies and nutrient companies claim they have X amount of years doing studies and growing and this and that..but it is actually IMPOSSIBLE for these people to know exactly which bacteria, microbes, fungi their adding.. IMPOSSIBLE. There are MILLIONS.
Good and bad. It's a shot in the dark. Like when. You make tea. You can't possibly know if your breeding good or bad.

I'm sorry but adding a product with bacteria and microbes and fungi with a bit of kelp and molasses or oatmeal for them to feed on.......THAT IS DEPLETED within hours....... That is not a sustainable food source once a week for a dying soil.
This is where they make their money.
It's like making tea. You have to do it multiple times a week for it to have any effect. Doing it once a week does not do anything. It doesn't hurt but your not getting the added benefit you think you are. And if you swear you are. Link me to multiple studies or side by side grows and prove me wrong.

A handful of compost top dressed in your living soil or worked into the top will add MORE microbes then 7 teas a week possibly could.
Now alot of you are asking yourselves Mack why would these organic nutrient companies lie to me? It's not that their lying. Their just jumping on the bandwagon of what's trending..AACT is a bandwagon. Making teas is a bandwagon with little science behind it..and the amount of work that goes into it and money makes no sense when a handful of compost as top dress will do more.
You seen the price of these products? They cost more than A bottle of synthetic.

Like I said. If your able to convince me with science data or studies I'd be extremely impressed.

 

[Emilya Green]

You are totally overlooking a couple of things in the organic feeding cycle. Yes, molasses and all the other things you mentioned can help to feed the microbes, but that is not the only thing they eat to sustain themselves, not by a long shot. Their natural food is the raw nutrient itself that is cooked into the soil and different microbes specialize in different elements. They ingest and process these raw nutrients and their byproduct of this feeding is the nutrient in a new and available form to give to the plant.

But it doesn't stop there. The plant produces exudates that it sends out via the roots, that have two purposes. First, messages are encoded in the exudation that tell the microbes what it is that the plant needs and wants. When a microbe comes along and dumps its load of processed nutrient, it also feeds on some of this exudate. The plants and the microbes are in a symbiotic relationship, feeding and supporting one another.

So to your point, if you are in a synthetic or veganic grow, you are supplying all the plant needs in your nutrient mix. The plant wants for nothing, so it does not produce exudates, calling for any specific nutrients. The plant stops feeding the microbes. With the feeding circle broken the microbes can not thrive and they will indeed die out rather quickly. Since they may still try to feed the plant, you can get some benefit from adding them periodically, but not nearly enough to justify the expense of adding them in there. If you are going to run synthetic or veganic nutes, then rely on them... not the temporary microbes.

Fungi are a little different, and don't rely as much on the feeding cycle as the microbes do, since they embed themselves in and among the roots, and their process of helping the roots gather nutrients is a bit different. Myco added to potting soils can actually be very effective in helping the plant gather up phosphorus especially, simply because of the way P is absorbed into the tips of the roots.

 

[MackMurder]

You are totally overlooking a couple of things in the organic feeding cycle. Yes, molasses and all the other things you mentioned can help to feed the microbes, but that is not the only thing they eat to sustain themselves, not by a long shot. Their natural food is the raw nutrient itself that is cooked into the soil and different microbes specialize in different elements. They ingest and process these raw nutrients and their byproduct of this feeding is the nutrient in a new and available form to give to the plant.

1. I think you missed the point Emylia.
2. I didnt overlook anything
I am fully aware of the difference between how organic works and synthetic but that wasn't the topic (or the question)

In fact I mentioned exactly what you did if you managed to read my post. I mentioned the exact same thing just with different wording.

Each handful of organic living super soil has millions of beneficial bacteria, microbes, nematodes and fungi. They feed on the organic matter and drop NPK for your plants.

Ok so that's established.

I'm aware of how microbes, bacteria, fungi and nematodes give nutrients to your plant.
The title of the thread is "ADDING products that contain microbes and bacteria is a myth"

Certain products (not trying to single anyone out so I'll leaves brands out of this) claims it has bacteria and fungi and kelp and molasses. And this will recharge your soil. That is a lie. That will not recharge your soil if the soil cannot sustain the original set of microbes it had to begin with then what does adding more microbes to a dead medium gonna do? Nothing.

A handful of compost as a top dress has more life in it to sustain a plant than a tea, or adding a beneficial microbe product.

When farmers grow organic gardens and make a soil..they don't add tea for the next 30 years or products that contain microbes and fungi to keep it alive. They work more compost into it or amendmens every single year.

So again can anyone prove me wrong. That products that "add beneficial microbes and bacteria" or "compost tea" actually does what it says it does for the money it costs or is it just a placebo that makes nutrient companies money

 

[The Celt]

OK, I wasn’t going to even think about this until I seen how it went, compost teas and the like were a touchy subject when I was here years ago and knew nothing of horticulture.

I don’t know what products you are speaking of specifically, I make all my own mixes, but I tend to agree with your statement @MackMurder. Chances are that any bottled “tea” or “recharge” is more of a money grab than anything.

Now if we consider home made AACTs, then that if a different bird all together. Contrary to opinions stated here a number of years back, ACCTs do NOT feed the soil, they feed the plant. Soils (or other mediums) do NOT eat. When you make an ACT, the microbes are digesting the amendments you put in, same as happens in a compost heap, just at an accelerated rate. When you water with the ACT, those microbes then feed the plant.

In an organic system, nitrogen uptake by the plant is NOT in the form of ammonia, not nitrites, not nitrates, not any form of NOx, but by ingesting bacteria at the roots. The shells of these bacteria are high in nitrogen and it is striped from them, in the root, before they are expelled back into the soil to digest more raw material and repeating the cycle. Other microbes preform similar functions for other nutrients.

So in this way, yes an ACT can feed plants in an inert medium. ACTs/recharge in a bottle, highly unlikely.

 

[Weaselcracker]

That products that "add beneficial microbes and bacteria" or "compost tea" actually does what it says it does for the money

While it’s not the main question of your thread as far as I can see- there is definitely a useful place for beneficial bacteria in the grow room, including in hydroponics. I am a lot more skeptical about the fungal products. Mycorrhizae needs time to establish and seems to me to be less likely to come out of a bottle but I’m just speculating.

But when it comes beneficial products which destroy slime, they can be a real godsend in the grow. Though maybe less suited to soil.

Often the myco/bacteria/enzyme products are packaged together. They aren’t the same thing obviously and there are usually a whole pile of different organisms lumped together in the same product, many of which may or may not survive bottling, and may not even have any beneficial impact even if they did.

I figure the marketing guys just tell the lab guys ‘Find whatever sorta fungus or crap you can dig up that sounds like it could possibly be beneficial and stick that shit in. Whadya mean it will die? Gimme some of them mushroom seeds or whatever. And some of them friendly germs’.

I confess I have never read the labels to see what the claims are on some of these products, and barely bother to read the ingredients, and I’ve never had the ambition to ‘replenish soil life’, but certain beneficial products have absolutely saved my ass in the cloning department after years of battling against slime issues.

 

[Odjob]

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm already convinced it's a a scam and or extremely misleading to growers.
I'm curious to see who can convince me otherwise with scientific studies, or side by side grows.

I see alot of these "beneficial bacteria/microbe/fungi/nematode products saying they'll recharge your depleted soil or "get your living soil going again"

I'm curious about the science of this and if you can provide that considered me surprised.

Each handful of organic living super soil has millions of beneficial bacteria, microbes, nematodes and fungi. They feed on the organic matter and drop NPK for your plants.

Ok so that's established.
but here's the kicker.......

Microbes die out in unfavorable soil conditions example environmental conditions or they run out of food. They don't multiply if the soil can't sustain them.

So adding more life to a medium that can't support it in the first place isnt gonna do anything.
Logic or common sense would suggest that the medium couldn't preserve its microbes to beging with so what does adding more solve? Nothing.
Now that's just common sense.

Now alot of these companies tell you they add only the proper bacteria, fungi, and microbial life.....but that is an actual lie. They ballpark it.

These soil companies and nutrient companies claim they have X amount of years doing studies and growing and this and that..but it is actually IMPOSSIBLE for these people to know exactly which bacteria, microbes, fungi their adding.. IMPOSSIBLE. There are MILLIONS.
Good and bad. It's a shot in the dark. Like when. You make tea. You can't possibly know if your breeding good or bad.

I'm sorry but adding a product with bacteria and microbes and fungi with a bit of kelp and molasses or oatmeal for them to feed on.......THAT IS DEPLETED within hours....... That is not a sustainable food source once a week for a dying soil.
This is where they make their money.
It's like making tea. You have to do it multiple times a week for it to have any effect. Doing it once a week does not do anything. It doesn't hurt but your not getting the added benefit you think you are. And if you swear you are. Link me to multiple studies or side by side grows and prove me wrong.

A handful of compost top dressed in your living soil or worked into the top will add MORE microbes then 7 teas a week possibly could.
Now alot of you are asking yourselves Mack why would these organic nutrient companies lie to me? It's not that their lying. Their just jumping on the bandwagon of what's trending..AACT is a bandwagon. Making teas is a bandwagon with little science behind it..and the amount of work that goes into it and money makes no sense when a handful of compost as top dress will do more.
You seen the price of these products? They cost more than A bottle of synthetic.

Like I said. If your able to convince me with science data or studies I'd be extremely impressed.

I'm in total agreement. All a healthy microbial population needs is a constant supply of organic material, moisture and warmth. Most phosphorus is bound in soil in stable and labile forms. Very little is soluble and easily available to plants. Other than mostly compost and worm turds I use phosphorus solubilizing
bacteria. Some interesting stuff going on there.

 

[Emilya Green]

I give you this grow journal which is documented proof that you can take a supersoil prepared container and get all through the grow without adding any AACT. Simply water and RealGrower's Recharge was supplying the necessary microbes to make everything happen. In a TLO grow, the soil is not living or self sustaining, and microbes are constantly needing to be added every week via actively aerated compost teas. Without the teas, a small container grow like this, using supersoil, will die. I successfully substituted making my own teas by using the Recharge. I got a great grow out of it too! You now need to convince me that it didn't work.

Emmie's Berry D'licious 2019 True Living Organic: No AACT, SCROG, COB, SuperSoil Production Grow & Seed Run

I will be growing out a special gift that came just for me from @santero, the well known German breeder, called Berry D-licious ... a cross between Shishkaberry x Sour Diesel. Thanks San! From Leafly: Shishkaberry, or “Kish,” is an indica-dominant hybrid that came about from crossing DJ Short...

www.420magazine.com

 

[Dankman_420]

 

[Odjob]

I'm a big fan of compost tea, works for me. The real advantage from adding lots of compost is tilth that it gives to soil.

 

[Dankman_420]

@MackMurder I've enjoyed reading this thread. It's really got my stoned brain cells turning
Anyway I'll bite and give you my opinion from my personal experience.
I veg in #1's filled with fox farm ocean forest. Once or twice I'll water with a bit of real growers recharge. In my humble opinion it's really helped me keep my veg girls happy Without feeding. Also I never make tea's. I've only done it once in 7 years.

Now when I up pot to final pot right at flip ( day before ) I put the plant in my super soil ( Subcools recipe ) filled to the top. Not bottom third like Sub recommend. If it's a #5 then it gets 4 gals of super soil.

Water only from seedlings to harvest, every run.

Weather or not the recharge helps, not sure. But I'll not use it for my next round. As matter of fact I just put some clones in #1's today. I'll do my normal system without the recharge to see how it goes.

I encourage you to stop by my "quest for dankness" journal to see my garden.
Again thanks for the thread. It's good to think about the shit we drop our hard earned cash on

 

[Odjob]

Good tea needs really strong agitation to strip bacterial slime from compost. It's like the slime on your teeth.

 

[RetiredRN]

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm already convinced it's a a scam and or extremely misleading to growers.
I'm curious to see who can convince me otherwise with scientific studies, or side by side grows.

I see alot of these "beneficial bacteria/microbe/fungi/nematode products saying they'll recharge your depleted soil or "get your living soil going again"

I'm curious about the science of this and if you can provide that considered me surprised.

Each handful of organic living super soil has millions of beneficial bacteria, microbes, nematodes and fungi. They feed on the organic matter and drop NPK for your plants.

Ok so that's established.
but here's the kicker.......

Microbes die out in unfavorable soil conditions example environmental conditions or they run out of food. They don't multiply if the soil can't sustain them.

So adding more life to a medium that can't support it in the first place isnt gonna do anything.
Logic or common sense would suggest that the medium couldn't preserve its microbes to beging with so what does adding more solve? Nothing.
Now that's just common sense.

Now alot of these companies tell you they add only the proper bacteria, fungi, and microbial life.....but that is an actual lie. They ballpark it.

These soil companies and nutrient companies claim they have X amount of years doing studies and growing and this and that..but it is actually IMPOSSIBLE for these people to know exactly which bacteria, microbes, fungi their adding.. IMPOSSIBLE. There are MILLIONS.
Good and bad. It's a shot in the dark. Like when. You make tea. You can't possibly know if your breeding good or bad.

I'm sorry but adding a product with bacteria and microbes and fungi with a bit of kelp and molasses or oatmeal for them to feed on.......THAT IS DEPLETED within hours....... That is not a sustainable food source once a week for a dying soil.
This is where they make their money.
It's like making tea. You have to do it multiple times a week for it to have any effect. Doing it once a week does not do anything. It doesn't hurt but your not getting the added benefit you think you are. And if you swear you are. Link me to multiple studies or side by side grows and prove me wrong.

A handful of compost top dressed in your living soil or worked into the top will add MORE microbes then 7 teas a week possibly could.
Now alot of you are asking yourselves Mack why would these organic nutrient companies lie to me? It's not that their lying. Their just jumping on the bandwagon of what's trending..AACT is a bandwagon. Making teas is a bandwagon with little science behind it..and the amount of work that goes into it and money makes no sense when a handful of compost as top dress will do more.
You seen the price of these products? They cost more than A bottle of synthetic.

Like I said. If your able to convince me with science data or studies I'd be extremely impressed.

Interesting

 

[Odjob]

Maybe see who can do it the cheapest.

 

[RetiredRN]

Maybe see who can do it the cheapest.

His way will probably be cheaper

 

[Odjob]

I've got a home made steamer for steralizing compost before I use it indoors. It's great the way it is but an inoculation gets it moving alot quicker. When you delve into old time gardening I really don't think there's to much new under the sun.

 

[meffa]

I've got a home made steamer for steralizing compost before I use it indoors. It's great the way it is but an inoculation gets it moving alot quicker. When you delve into old time gardening I really don't think there's to much new under the sun.

Can you tell me about your steamer? I spent a small fortune and a bit of time with my current grow dealing with fungus gnats. I just baked some soil in tins on my gas grill, but I'd love to have options. I have a portable steamer that we bought to take the wrinkles out of curtains.

 

[Odjob]

OK, it's really low tec. I use half an oil tank and also half a 45 gallon barrel. Set either one on cinder blocks so you can have a fire underneath. A good bed of hot coals works best. Put in a few inches of water and about a foot of compost. The water steams through the compost. It's easy to tell when you cook it to much, it smells real bad.

 

[meffa]

OK, it's really low tec. I use half an oil tank and also half a 45 gallon barrel. Set either one on cinder blocks so you can have a fire underneath. A good bed of hot coals works best. Put in a few inches of water and about a foot of compost. The water steams through the compost. It's easy to tell when you cook it to much, it smells real bad.

Wow that sounds smart, I like it! I don't have those exact items but it gives me some ideas.

 

[DeanWest89]

No one can prove it wrong , their is scientific research backing compost teas and microbiology and living soils ,when added to a system that has everything it needs to support life. But we amend or medium with amendments , not only to support the plants needs but also all microbial life needs ; you need to provide food for the life , you cannot throw life into something without food ; and in a tlo style grow , there is no shortage in a food source ; I can guarantee you that
we have all been taught pour the nutrients and feed the plants , this is not the case in a tlo system. Now I will be investing in a microscope so I can start testing samples, things may get interesting.
I also feel like it’s very hard to teach people things when they’ve been taught one thing their whole life. Somewhere along the way we as people thought we knew what’s best for the plants and took away the plants ability to make its own decisions and we thought synthetic salt based solutions and chelated sludges high in amino acids and other toxic things to microbial life , which is the foundation of life was the answer , this stuff is polluting farming communities water sources , to the point they can’t drink it . this is not sustainable .
When getting into living soils is you need to have an understanding of biology. But it’s also very simple once you understand the fundamentals of true living organics.
open your minds people , we need to start thinking sustainability if we want our kids and their kids to be able to do the things we are doing , and in a synthetic style grow to waste grow , it’s just not sustainable.

I plant to pass the soil I am using down to my kids one day, now I won’t be using compost teas weekly but I will be using 3 teas in a plants life cycle in conjunction with kbs endo Nucor + bacteria and also raw npks line up of microbes , which I only have to add a few times in a plants cycle. But if your soils in check your microbiology will be in check in turn keeping your plant healthy through the process of what was said in the above posts

 

[Regrowth]

Look up the wood wide web