Why are the leaves on my plant looking yellow and stained?

[GrowInTheDark]

Hi this is my second grow and i have a few plants all planted from seed straight into i believe 3 gallon pots, and they have been growing fine but one of them which happens to be my biggest grower, the first true leaves have started to get this yellow staining in the middle of the leaves and a little wilt, I am using Vigoro all purpose potting soil, and have a 2 32 watt = 100w cfl bulbs over them, so about 200w in total of 6500 kelvin daylight bulbs about 4 inches from the plant, the top leaves seem fine for now, its still growing new leaves, here are some pictures. I would appreciate some advice. Thank you. The potting mix nutrients are - Nitrogen - 0.07%, Phosphate - 0.04% , Potash - 0.03%,
it also has a portion of the nutrients above in slow release, nitrogen - 0.05%, phosphate - 0.014%, potash 0.03% .

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Looks like phosphorus deficiency possibly caused by cold soil if you have plants on a cold floor.

 

[GrowInTheDark]

Really? Because i do have them on the floor, the room temperature is warm but the soil does feel cold. Wouldn't the time release phosphorous in my soil prevent that? And the other 2 plants are doing fine, yet they all have some slow growth, that plant is about 20 days old

 

[Emilya Green]

How often do you water and how much water do you give each time? Have you been giving them anything else? It is a bit early in their life to already have a deficiency... I am thinking that it is something else.... let's figure it out! --Emmie

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Ok that's why I called you here Em, I wanted to make sure we figured it correctly. Thanks.

 

[Rifleman]

Did the leaves lay on the soil for a while? Early for a deficiency like Emilya said.

 

[GrowInTheDark]

Its been growing fine up until yesterday, I normally water it every 3 days, usually about a cup, maybe more, depending on how dry and how much drainage i see, my other plants seem to be doing great, with the same watering schedule, i noticed in the last couple of days that it hasnt been drinking much at all, and I have not provided anything other than light, water, i just checked on it and the yellowing leaves are starting to wilt and they are CRISPY

 

[Emilya Green]

Its been growing fine up until yesterday, I normally water it every 3 days, usually about a cup, maybe more, depending on how dry and how much drainage i see, my other plants seem to be doing great, with the same watering schedule, i noticed in the last couple of days that it hasnt been drinking much at all, and I have not provided anything other than light, water, i just checked on it and the yellowing leaves are starting to wilt and they are CRISPY

ok, that confirms what I saw then. 3 gallon containers with month and a half old monsters growing in them, will take about 3 days to get through a wet/dry cycle. Yet, you have little bitty newbie plants, planted into this ocean of soil. And, with all good intentions, you come along every 3 days and add a cup of water... or more.

When this plant first hit this huge container, its single purpose in life was to find out where the bottom was. It sent its main tap root down to the bottom, and then started to spread out from there. Most of the root activity was at the bottom, because that's what weeds do... they seek out the limits of where they are and try hard to establish themselves by attaching as deep as they can.

The problem is that your little sprig of a plant cant use a lot of water yet, and in 3 days it was unable to use up your cup or more, but because you (again with good intentions) saw that the surface was dry, you felt you needed to add more water. Because of gravity, what was happening down deep in that container was that the soil at the very bottom is saturated and the plant can use enough to dry it out, and each time you added water, the problem got worse, rising the water table even further up in the container.

So, since you water the top every three days, the top roots are still able to survive and have been keeping the plant alive. The bottom roots are a different story, because they think that they are in a flood! Weeds being very crafty plants, try to survive a flood by protecting the roots that remain underwater. We tend to assign human afflictions to our plants, and you will hear gardeners say that the roots are drowning, that they need oxygen. Yes, roots need oxygen in a regular cycle, but they are not literally drowning, they have protected themselves with a coating that will allow them to survive the flood... at least for a while. While they have this special protective coating however, they suck at doing root things, and all of a sudden, your plant that is trying to grow as fast as it can and who has an ever increasing nutrient need because of its ever increasing size, all of a sudden your poor plant finds that it can not get the nutrition it needs via its main feeder roots at the bottom.

Whatever happens below the soil, also happens above the soil. Since your lower roots are in distress, so are your lower leaves. The symptoms present as a mobile nutrient deficiency, because that is exactly what it is... the plant is not getting enough nitrogen to do what it wants to do, and it is beginning (again in an amazing survival technique) to cannibalize the lower leaves for the nutrients that it needs to build the new growth at the top.

The fix is to realize that this weed needs a clear wet/dry cycle to thrive, and your watering method is not allowing that to happen. I explain this process a lot around here it seems, and you might be well served to look at some of the other advice I and others have given recently on watering... I word it differently and give more details sometimes, it just depends on how much time I have and how wordy I feel at the time, but do some searching... i talk about watering to new growers of weeds all the time, and not always with a long hard to read term paper on the subject as you have been gifted with this morning.

Watering correctly is an art, and watering a weed correctly means mastering that art. You must learn to let your container dry out all the way to the bottom each time, before you water again. With the size of your plants, the fact that at least one is starting to show distress, and being in those 3 gallon containers presents you with a huge problem. Keep in mind that very little water leaves your container due to evaporation... your plants have to use the vast majority of that water. With a small sick plant in a 3 gallon container, this could take a week or more. Here is the problem. If you stop watering for a week to save the lower roots from "drowning" the upper roots are going to dry out and die. This is also not acceptable.

Generally we put small plants in small containers, just to avoid this situation. We want to be able to establish a wet/dry cycle and force the roots to fill the smaller container, and when they do, we up-pot to the next larger sized container. By the time I get my plants into a 3 or 5 gallon container, they have already been transplanted at least 3 times, again, just to avoid the problems you are having now.

Drastic measures are going to have to be taken to save this plant. It is not drinking the water, and you are in great risk of root rot, dampening off of the stem at the top surface of the soil and just plain expiration of your plant due to starvation.

Here is what I would do if you brought this plant to me to save. First, I would water that container completely, slowly soaking that soil with so much water that it could not hold another drop, and in fact it will start coming out of the bottom before you get very far, because all of that water is still sitting in the bottom of that container from your regular waterings. After a proper watering, the water table is located right at the top. After this, you need to find out if the plant is capable of drying that dude out. If you have one of those wet/moist meters, start using it, and try to determine each day where the top of the water table is in your container. Watch it go down, and try to extrapolate how long it will take to get down to the last inch of that container. If it looks like it is going to take more than 6 days, you will have to lightly water the top, just to keep the top roots alive.... while still letting the bottom dry out more. 1 cup would be about right if it comes to this, but we are hoping that the plant can use the water in this time so that you can begin to water normally in 5 or 6 days.

Each time you can get through a clear wet/dry cycle of completely soaking and then letting the plant seek and use all the water, your lower roots will get healthier. After an extended flood, it will take them 3 good wet/dry cycles to get back into full swing again. By that time, you will begin to see rapid growth and you will know you are on the right track, but this next 5 or 6 days is likely to be a real struggle for you. Just sit on your hands and watch that water table drop... the plant does not need you right now... it needs clear this water.

Each time you get through a wet/dry cycle, all the way to the bottom inch, you will find that the cycle gets shorter too. The more roots that become active, the more water can be used, the more aggressive the growth will become, and again more water will be used. You will find that if you can get her to survive the next 5 or 6 days, each time after that will knock off a couple of days, until you get to the normal wet/dry cycle for a 3 gallon container, of about 3 days.

I would say to learn the lift method to determine when to water, but you are in this large container, and not all of us are physically capable of lifting a 3 gallon container saturated with 20 lbs of water. Get one of those cheapy wet/moist meters... it is going to save your grow. Once you get the lower roots doing something again, and you see the wet/dry cycle starting to reduce in time, then you will be able to water normally. Instead of 1 cup spread around the top surface, you will want to saturate that soil to runoff, every time. Fill the soil with water, and then wait for the plant to drain it... that is how we water...

And now you know why a good gardener never puts a small plant in a huge container. I go from 1 inch starter cups, to beer cups, to 3 quart, to 3 gallon. The extra work is well worth the trouble, and the end result is much better.

Good luck... now is the time to ask questions. Lots of us are here to help. --Emmie

 

[GrowInTheDark]

Wow, Thanks for all that great info, i was always worried about sitting water, because of the big pots. I started off misting when they were little and slowly as the weeks went by added more and more water, but i was always afraid, so i never watered them enough to have any decent runoff water. I dug around half an hour ago and noticed it seemed really compacted half way down, which leads me to believe that, without runoff, all the salts were just sitting i there. So, i watered each of my plants more than i ever had untill finally(I think it was kind of clogged) water started pouring out of the holes of the bottom, but the water that came out was a murky brown colour(not a soil dirt brown) but a dirty brown, so i did it one more time and it flushed easily and came out almost clear with some soil mixed in, I hope this makes them feel better, Im worried P.s I was thinking now that now might be a good time to start some low nutes, is that a bad idea

 

[Emilya Green]

you should never give nutes to young weeds. Good job on removing the blockage... sometimes soil will compact like that without salts... sounds like you fixed it though... now let it dry out Read the last 2 lines of my signature stuff please.

 

[GrowInTheDark]

but you said it might have a nitrogen problem too, and its starting to look that way from what i've been reading in other posts, heres a recent pic

 

[Emilya Green]

you have a nitrogen problem because your roots are not working correctly and they just are not able to uptake the amounts of nitrogen that your plant needs right now, hence the symptoms. The nitrogen is in that soil, the plant just can't get to it because the roots are damaged. Adding more nitrogen will not help, the plant would not be able to get to that either. Never add nutes to a small weed like this... everything it needs, and more, is in that soil already.

 

[Thehalobluntm]

I'd move it to 2 inches bellow the light and check ph when u water check the run off. Mine was doing the same thing and found out ph was 8.2 u want 6.5 to 7

 

[Emilya Green]

I'd move it to 2 inches bellow the light and check ph when u water check the run off. Mine was doing the same thing and found out ph was 8.2 u want 6.5 to 7

got to jump in on this one so the OP does not get confused. 100w cfl's probably need a little more distance than 2"... the 4" you already have them at is just about right GTD.

regarding pH, just water correctly at 6.5 pH. Runoff can do whatever it wants to do... it has no bearing on the pH inside of that container. Water or water/nute at 6.5 pH every time, and the soil has no choice... it adjusts accordingly.

 

[GrowInTheDark]

I figured i would put some updated pictures to see if maybe you guys saw something else,

 

[Thehalobluntm]

I have 2 cfl 23 watt bulbs and have my pants 2 inch from them and look just fine wet

 

[Emilya Green]

I figured i would put some updated pictures to see if maybe you guys saw something else,

Looking better! Keep on it, your new growth looks great and I see green trying to come back as much as it can into the damaged leaves. The dead parts of the leaves will most likely not come back, but that is ok. Leave those damaged leaves alone and let the plant take them if she wants to, and that will give you a clear indication as to whether she is responding to your actions. If you pluck these leaves, she has no other way to talk to you, and if she gets in trouble again, she will have no choice but to pick another set of leaves to cannibalize. Let her work... she knows what to do, and if you watch very carefully, she IS communicating.

 

[GrowInTheDark]

I think I have fungus gnats, is this a fungus gnat?

there were a few flying around my plants, and then it landed on a leaf and it wouldn't come off, i had to severely blow it away, and then it flew on the dirt and buried into the soil , sorry the light is so bright in the pics, they need their light

 

[Emilya Green]

I really dislike bugs... get some of those colored sticky cards... i hear they work really well. I will try them when I run out of the sticky tape that i use to trap the little pests

 

[GrowInTheDark]

but is it a fungus gnat, am i now going to have little larvae worms crawling through my soil and eating my roots?