A Base Treatment Regimen For Cancer

[SweetSue]

I saw her Summit presentation, and she sure seems to know what she's talking about. But on the other hand, Cajun is very specific about using both THC and CBD at the same time, and has gotten great results for himself and the people he is helping. There is a subtle distinction here that we seem to be missing. Or else it's an honest difference of opinion between two very knowledgable practitioners in the field.

I have the Summit videos but I haven't watched her presentation yet. I'll make it a point to do so today. She certainly has the credentials and experience behind her. Let me look closer.

The CB1 receptors are in the central nervous system and the CB2s are in the immune system. I don't see the problem with competition here. I see a likelihood for THC to be able to get to areas outside the CNS when the need arises to lend a hand in a particularly stubborn cell. It's a simplified idea, but it makes sense to me. Let's see what the science reveals.

 

[jennyj]

I have the Summit videos but I haven't watched her presentation yet. I'll make it a point to do so today. She certainly has the credentials and experience behind her. Let me look closer.

The CB1 receptors are in the central nervous system and the CB2s are in the immune system. I don't see the problem with competition here. I see a likelihood for THC to be able to get to areas outside the CNS when the need arises to lend a hand in a particularly stubborn cell. It's a simplified idea, but it makes sense to me. Let's see what the science reveals.

Hum, that's interesting. or you could do both. take THC/CBD together, then a separate dose of just the CBD. win win???

 

[SweetSue]

Hum, that's interesting. or you could do both. take THC/CBD together, then a separate dose of just the CBD. win win???

The oil is such a valuable resource though Jen and to waste in unnecessarily feels unseemly to me. I'm already coming across information posted by doctors working with CCO who are coming to the conclusion that smaller daily dose totals actually become more therapeutic. This is new to me, so I've much more digging to get through. We've reached a point where doctors are putting labs in their practices so they can get the blood serum levels and fine-tune protocols. The next year or so is going to drastically modify our approach, I suspect.

 

[jennyj]

The oil is such a valuable resource though Jen and to waste in unnecessarily feels unseemly to me. I'm already coming across information posted by doctors working with CCO who are coming to the conclusion that smaller daily dose totals actually become more therapeutic. This is new to me, so I've much more digging to get through. We've reached a point where doctors are putting labs in their practices so they can get the blood serum levels and fine-tune protocols. The next year or so is going to drastically modify our approach, I suspect.

yeah, i have to agree with you on the price YOWZA! We haven't felt the true pain of that yet, because we are in the ramp up phase. I will be looking for money in the couch when it come to a gram a day. The CBD is very expensive too! one shop is asking 80 a gram for it. (cough) If you find any info, please pass it along. I have NO idea! LOL I need all of your brains to help me!!!

My daughter has her biopsy for confirmation tomorrow. Then about a week after, they will start pushing the standard of care cocktail. UGGG that's cisplatin/taxol/avastin I still don't think she understands her condition and how serious it is. It's because her nodules are small and she still feels good! She's feeling like her old self and doesn't realize she is worse, NOT better. I don't want to scare her, but I told her this is a top priority.

 

[Dave Groomer]

I have the Summit videos but I haven't watched her presentation yet. I'll make it a point to do so today. She certainly has the credentials and experience behind her. Let me look closer.

The CB1 receptors are in the central nervous system and the CB2s are in the immune system. I don't see the problem with competition here. I see a likelihood for THC to be able to get to areas outside the CNS when the need arises to lend a hand in a particularly stubborn cell. It's a simplified idea, but it makes sense to me. Let's see what the science reveals.

How about the fact the strains (Like my Blue Blood) are 2 to1 THC to CBD in the plant. I make oil and I am dosing at the same time.

 

[SweetSue]

yeah, i have to agree with you on the price YOWZA! We haven't felt the true pain of that yet, because we are in the ramp up phase. I will be looking for money in the couch when it come to a gram a day. The CBD is very expensive too! one shop is asking 80 a gram for it. (cough) If you find any info, please pass it along. I have NO idea! LOL I need all of your brains to help me!!!

My daughter has her biopsy for confirmation tomorrow. Then about a week after, they will start pushing the standard of care cocktail. UGGG that's cisplatin/taxol/avastin I still don't think she understands her condition and how serious it is. It's because her nodules are small and she still feels good! She's feeling like her old self and doesn't realize she is worse, NOT better. I don't want to scare her, but I told her this is a top priority.

You keep breathing mom. I know it looks dire. Your early in, but you have that whiff of hope that'll serve you well. We still need to wait on Cajun, and he may be a few days. Hang tight.

 

[jennyj]

You keep breathing mom. I know it looks dire. Your early in, but you have that whiff of hope that'll serve you well. We still need to wait on Cajun, and he may be a few days. Hang tight.

yeah, hopefully he'll jump in!!

thanks for all of your kind words!!!

 

[SweetSue]

SweetSue, look up Mara Gordon's videos in Youtube. Also she had a presentation in Green Flower's Cannabis Health Summit. She sais, keep thc and cbd as separate doses by two hours. In more than one of her videos.

Mariamlu, I did some research and watched her Summit video, and my understanding is that this is a technique they utilize to "keep the doses a little bit lower," in her own words. She explains that they still work within your body in synergy, but that they may gain some advantage by giving them a bit more time on their own. I couldn't find any evidence of more than an expectation that it could help. If you were inclined to try, it certainly couldn't hurt, could it?

 

[jennyj]

Mariamlu, I did some research and watched her Summit video, and my understanding is that this is a technique they utilize to "keep the doses a little bit lower," in her own words. She explains that they still work within your body in synergy, but that they may gain some advantage by giving them a bit more time on their own. I couldn't find any evidence of more than an expectation that it could help. If you were inclined to try, it certainly couldn't hurt, could it?

. Hum, I will have to watch them. I stay confused...lol

 

[SlowToke]

I have two concerns that may or may not have merit, but I'll throw them out there any way. One is basic logistics. We know that the recommendation is to dose 5 times per day to keep the level of medication high throughout the day, at least for prostate cancer. Dosing CBD and THC separately would require a four hour schedule for each med (2 hours between each med dosing). That wouldn't allow 5 doses of both THC and CBD without interrupting a reasonable sleep period. The other concern is the effect the staggered dosing schedule would have on the entourage effect you get with using both meds at the same time. I wonder if it wouldn't provide less benefit if one drug is allowed to dissipate to some degree before application of the other.

I am also finding some research which indicates that THC and CBD may target different types of a cancer (different "strains" if you will, of the same basic cancer type. And CBD for the most part appears to be delivered using different receptors than the CB1 and CB2 receptors that THC adheres to so effectively. I found one paper that has a table showing which receptor (CB1 and CB2) is used by which cannabinoid, and CBD wasn't even included on the list! Clearly we have a lot to learn about CBD.

It's too bad Mara was limited to a short 20 minute presentation (+ another 20 minutes or so of additional backstage questions and answers). I would really love to hear a more detailed discussion of her dosing protocol, and what they observed with their patients that lead them to go with this approach. Still looking through what literature I can find through google, but so far nothing comes up to explain the need for separate dosing.

BTW, here are links to a couple decent papers I found that have led me to the above. I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this information. I am no expert, just a guy trying you learn everyone possible about treating cancer with cannabis. Additional sets of eyes on the information I have would be great.

Cannabis For the Treatment of Cancer

Medicinal Use of Cannabis: History and Current Status (PDF Download)

And Here's My Google Search As you can see, I started off asking the question about dosing THC and CBD. No concrete answers, but some pretty good information nonetheless.

 

[Radogast]

BTW, here are links to a couple decent papers I found that have led me to the above. I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this information. I am no expert, just a guy trying you learn everyone possible about treating cancer with cannabis. Additional sets of eyes on the information I have would be great.

Cancer For the Treatment of Cancer

Thanks for the book - It might take me days to read.

I'm on the skeptical side when it comes to suggesting seperate CBD and THC based treatments. I'd want proof, or at least a really good theory, before I considered it as a medical approach.

 

[SweetSue]

I'd certainly like to see the medical proof that this approach is as beneficial as they believe, but she has experience behind what she says, and it's not a separation of the cannabinoids, so much as keeping the strain doses separate - high THC for this dose, high CBD for that one. So there's always both cannabinoids in each dose, just different levels. The more I consider it, the sounder it appears. Isn't that what we're doing with our daytime and nighttime oils?

I did like her description of dosing with small grains wrapped in rice paper and placed under the tongue. I can see this working, possibly as well as, if not better than tacking. One for future investigation.

 

[jennyj]

I have two concerns that may or may not have merit, but I'll throw them out there any way. One is basic logistics. We know that the recommendation is to dose 5 times per day to keep the level of medication high throughout the day, at least for prostate cancer. Dosing CBD and THC separately would require a four hour schedule for each med (2 hours between each med dosing). That wouldn't allow 5 doses of both THC and CBD without interrupting a reasonable sleep period. The other concern is the effect the staggered dosing schedule would have on the entourage effect you get with using both meds at the same time. I wonder if it wouldn't provide less benefit if one drug is allowed to dissipate to some degree before application of the other.

I am also finding some research which indicates that THC and CBD may target different types of a cancer (different "strains" if you will, of the same basic cancer type. And CBD for the most part appears to be delivered using different receptors than the CB1 and CB2 receptors that THC adheres to so effectively. I found one paper that has a table showing which receptor (CB1 and CB2) is used by which cannabinoid, and CBD wasn't even included on the list! Clearly we have a lot to learn about CBD.

It's too bad Mara was limited to a short 20 minute presentation (+ another 20 minutes or so of additional backstage questions and answers). I would really love to hear a more detailed discussion of her dosing protocol, and what they observed with their patients that lead them to go with this approach. Still looking through what literature I can find through google, but so far nothing comes up to explain the need for separate dosing.

BTW, here are links to a couple decent papers I found that have led me to the above. I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this information. I am no expert, just a guy trying you learn everyone possible about treating cancer with cannabis. Additional sets of eyes on the information I have would be great.

Cancer For the Treatment of Cancer

Medicinal Use of Cannabis: History and Current Status (PDF Download)

And Here's My Google Search As you can see, I started off asking the question about dosing THC and CBD. No concrete answers, but some pretty good information nonetheless.

Hey slowtoke, nice response. i just read the "drugpolicy" article yesterday as a matter of fact...(small world) and it does suggest different cancers respond differently. my daughter has cervical cancer and it was totally different and complicated. I wish there were more studies. jen

 

[SweetSue]

Hey guys, jump back in and edit your posts. The link should read "Cannabis for the treatment......" All three of you can make the change in your own posts. I know, I know, but it's only a little housecleaning. Indulge me.

 

[SlowToke]

Hey guys, jump back in and edit your posts. The link should read "Cannabis for the treatment......" All three of you can make the change in your own posts. I know, I know, but it's only a little housecleaning. Indulge me.

You have been indulged! Sorry about the momentary mental hiccup!

 

[SlowToke]

I'd certainly like to see the medical proof that this approach is as beneficial as they believe, but she has experience behind what she says, and it's not a separation of the cannabinoids, so much as keeping the strain doses separate - high THC for this dose, high CBD for that one. So there's always both cannabinoids in each dose, just different levels. The more I consider it, the sounder it appears. Isn't that what we're doing with our daytime and nighttime oils?

I don't think it is very similar to the daytime/nighttime dosing. With that, aren't we still using 2:1 THC:CBD for both times of day; just switching indica for sativa at night to leverage the sleep enhancing properties of the indica type? It doesn't seem like competitive inhibition would come into play either, if both cannabinoids don't use the same receptors for the most part.

Personally, I'm leaning toward sticking with the Cajun protocol until there is more specific information to support the Aunt Zelda approach.

 

[shazzy]

Hi everyone

Thanks for posting all these amazing resources.

Cajun if you happen to be reading, and when you find a few minutes please could you ever so kindly tell me more about the phenolic oil mix you mentioned earlier. Thank you for all you do.

Chewey congrats on your friends great results. Long may it be so! I also contacted Bud Buddies, but regarding sourcing oil.

 

[CajunCelt]

High All,
Still in hospital. Having stomach problems due to infection. Been puking since Wed & am a lil wore out. Feel like I've gone 3 round with Connor McGregor.
I'm gonna try & get caught up, but forgive me for keeping it short. The wifi here sucks.

Thought I would pop over here to say hello on this thread. I also haven't met Cajun yet! Thought he may have some advice regarding my daughter and her cervical cancer. ( spreading like a wild fire!
We have some oil, not sure if it the best but it's 71 % THC... 60/40 sati a Dom. (Sky walker OG ) They were out of cbd oil so I will have to pick that up somewhere else. We got some cbd chews In case she gets a little too heady. So at least we have something! Jen

Awesome call on the CBD chews.
The most common dosing method I know for cervical cancer is vaginally suppositories with anal suppositories.
I'll add that cervical cancer is one of those beginning to see great results with cannabis.

Smelling fresh ground pepper and smelling the essential oil, Right?

I've heard it is very good for paranoid feelings.

That's right. People joke about it, but lots of patients come near a sheer terror/panic if od'ing on especially sativa.
Pepper will keep them calm.

SweetSue,
Thank you for posting these two videos about first pass metabolism and competitive inhibition!

Now I understand, why we should take Apigenin and Amentoflavone (Ginko Biloba). Cajuncent told us that before, but it was too complicated to understand. Magic words: competitive inhibition. Ensyme needs to bind with something and it prefers some substances to the others, and it can only bind with one at a time.

Can anybody explain Demethylation the same way?

Second question is bothering me for a quite long time by now.

Some experts are telling us to take THC and CBD oils separately from each other by 2 hours.
That they are antagonists, fighting each other for receptor cells, and we should give them both the best change by itself.
Can this be explained with competitive inhibition? How serious this subject is ?

Since I'm affiliated with 99% of the folks from the Summit, I have to say I disagree 110%, with all due respect to to Mara. She is well aware of my opinions on this.
The combined synergy of THC, CBD & all terpenes is 50 fold of any cannabinoid, terpenes, terpenoids, flavonoids combined.
1+1=3.... Not 2 when using synergistic effects. This is not new & is very well documented.
I'll post soon why this is my opinion when I can.
It's up to you, but if ask you to trust me on this issue.

Already covered. I know it's a few pages back here, but I have a link to my blog.

Thoughts on Demethylation and the Methylation Cycle

Thanks Sue.

SweetSue, look up Mara Gordon's videos in Youtube. Also she had a presentation in Green Flower's Cannabis Health Summit. She sais, keep thc and cbd as separate doses by two hours. In more than one of her videos.

As I stated, I disagree with Mara for many, many reasons on this subject.
We need every cannabinoid, terpenes, well....you get it, that we can get. The combined effects of these are what the professional field is currently trying to nail down better. But, there is & has been lots of info on the synergistic effects of all of there combined verse singling out any 1 cannabinoid.
I can show enough to convince you.

Thank you

I have the day off today so i'll be making some oil and proceeding with the diet change recommended by Cajun. Along with 200mg per day split into 4-5 tacks unless i hear any different. How long he should keep this up for? Who knows, but, we must get started. I made a test batch around a week ago with this CBD critical mass and 28 grams gave me 4ml/grams so very pleased with that

200mg is a perfect beginning/intermediate dose. Push it though at least every 7 days minimum for life threatening illnesses.

yeah, i have to agree with you on the price YOWZA! We haven't felt the true pain of that yet, because we are in the ramp up phase. I will be looking for money in the couch when it come to a gram a day. The CBD is very expensive too! one shop is asking 80 a gram for it. (cough) If you find any info, please pass it along. I have NO idea! LOL I need all of your brains to help me!!!

My daughter has her biopsy for confirmation tomorrow. Then about a week after, they will start pushing the standard of care cocktail. UGGG that's cisplatin/taxol/avastin I still don't think she understands her condition and how serious it is. It's because her nodules are small and she still feels good! She's feeling like her old self and doesn't realize she is worse, NOT better. I don't want to scare her, but I told her this is a top priority.

Ouch.
First, leave that place & never go back. You should not pay anywhere near that. That's disgusts me.
If she's on Avastin, the disease is metastatic. I'm very sorry to hear that, but keep hope.
You won't be starting her @ a full gram a day.
She's feeling good because most don't die of cancer. They die of chemo- causing infections & side effects. That's just a fact.

Hi everyone

Thanks for posting all these amazing resources.

Cajun if you happen to be reading, and when you find a few minutes please could you ever so kindly tell me more about the phenolic oil mix you mentioned earlier. Thank you for all you do.

Chewey congrats on your friends great results. Long may it be so! I also contacted Bud Buddies, but regarding sourcing oil.

Hey gal. Hope you're hanging in there. What do you need to know about the oil's? Are you demethylating? Sounds like it. I thought I answered about this, but fire away.

 

[jennyj]

Thanks Cajun for your reply. Hope you feel better soon! These lovely people have helped me get my daughter started on dosing! We are all thinking of you! newbie Jen

 

[SweetSue]

Be well mon ami.