A Base Treatment Regimen For Cancer
- Thread starter CajunCelt
- Start date
This was my first thought. The vegan capsules won't hold oil. The beef gelatin capsules are what I use. My second thought was to wonder if your CCO was made with an ethanol extraction, and was the alcohol completely purged. Alcohol will dissolve the capsules.
Other than that I have no idea CCSC. Maybe someone else has another thought.
This confuses me. It's been their policy all along, and the chief reason I've been able to determine is a possibility of reduced doses. The idea that CBD will act as an antagonist and block the CB1 receptors is bad science, and I'm a bit disappointed to hear Mara's crew perpetuating this erroneous thought.
CBD doesn't activate any receptors directly. What is does is work through alternative pathways, using auxiliary receptors that modulate the GP receptors used by the other cannabinoids, and even non-receptor pathways. But it won't directly block THC from its own receptor.
The truth of the matter is that our federal government has steadfastly blocked the very research that would tell us what's going on in the human body. To be perfectly honest, none of us knows what's really going on. And now you know why I'm so pushy about getting us to understand that it's your thoughts and the emotions they engender with the accompanying neurotransmitter cascades that are probably making the most difference. I believe we have much more control over the way our bodies heal than we're led to believe.
Nixie said:
You're correct in your assumption. A novice cannabis user has to gently introduce THC to build up a resistance. The basic process is to start very low and increase slowly, giving the body at least three days in between each dose increase to adjust to the new levels.
What you're looking for in most cases is a CBD-rich regimen with as much THC as the patient can comfortably tolerate. When you use oral doses you can only get so much THC into the system with comfort. When you treat cancer you sometimes need more THC than the patient will tolerate. That's when we move to suppositories.
Nixie said:
The gram a day protocol was developed at a time when we had no guidance to fall back on. Now that there are numerous clinicians at work with canna meds we're learning that many cancers respond to 300 mg a day or less. It's the odd case that needs more. This is good news for all of us. Cannabis is not inexpensive to grow or process and horrendously expensive to purchase.
Nixie said:
I've sometimes wondered if Mara had a loved one who died trying to use suppositories. There's an irrational vehemence against them that she's recently modified. Fact is, some patients respond well to suppositories and some don't. Even Mara will admit that, although I can see it bothers her not to understand why this works. This is the way with all administration pathways. Some patients will respond and others won't.
My theory is that it's what you believe going in. If you have faith in the protocol your ECS will respond accordingly.
Nixie said:
*sigh* Why would we attempt to make the expensive and difficult to source medication more bioavailable by introducing some simple additions to the regimen?
Nixie said:
I suspect this has more to do with your limited access than anything else. Cannabis heals. Terpenes can be used to fine-tune a regimen, but cannabis heals, with or without all our special tweaks.
Nixie said:
The field of oncology is beginning to get excited about being able to use cannabis to dial back chemo drugs. It'll be a while, for sure, but oncologists do what they do because they desire to help their patient heal. They get a bad rap because they peddle poison. As the word spreads they'll be able to use far less of it for greater effect, and cannabis will protect the healthy cells from unnecessary damage at the same time.
The field is torn about suppositories. There are canna physicians who swear by them, and others who insist it's physically impossible to have THC in your system to those levels and not feel it.
So let's toss this around a bit. Oils don't absorb well through the lower gut. We surround our cannabinoids with lecithin, which is absorbed into the system from anywhere you introduce it. So is it reasonable to expect that those cannabinoids are indeed being absorbed? Is it possible that once absorbed into the system the reason that you don't feel the effects of the metabolized THC is that a struggling system will have a desperate need for those cannabinoids, and they don't make it to the liver to be converted precisely because the majority of them did exactly what we hoped they'd do when we introduced them?
I don't have the answers. What I have are members that have used suppositories and found relief, from cancer, from arthritis, from IBS,...... the list goes on and on. For whatever reason, suppositories work. And knowing that, we recommend you consider adding in a dose or two of suppositories. You can't be hurt by the addition, since there's none of the dreaded euphoria to be feared if you do shallow insertions. It might be the game-changer we believe it can be. The choice is yours, and we'll support you no matter what you choose.
Thank you for sharing this information with us. We're out here without the legitimacy and experience Mara's crew has, and it helps to get as much inside information as possible on particular regimens. Your share is someone's salvation.
Thank you Nixie, SweetSue, Kingston Rabbi for your replies.
I've had no internet for 2 days so I'm a bit behind here.
I've registered with Aunt Zelda's for a consultation but that may take a while, so I'm continuing my present protocol for the moment.
KR, I have a mango a day, plus 3 or 4 green teas per day.
Sue, as I've made the BioBombs I've not noticed any separation or layers in the mixture. I'm gently heating the CCO and the lecithin, then mixing the CCO with the Olive oil until mixed, then adding the heated Lecithin. It seems to mix quite well and I see no evidence of the layering that's been spoken of.
Sorry. just realised I'm late for an appointment. Cheers, Nobby
I've had no internet for 2 days so I'm a bit behind here.
I've registered with Aunt Zelda's for a consultation but that may take a while, so I'm continuing my present protocol for the moment.
KR, I have a mango a day, plus 3 or 4 green teas per day.
Sue, as I've made the BioBombs I've not noticed any separation or layers in the mixture. I'm gently heating the CCO and the lecithin, then mixing the CCO with the Olive oil until mixed, then adding the heated Lecithin. It seems to mix quite well and I see no evidence of the layering that's been spoken of.
Sorry. just realised I'm late for an appointment. Cheers, Nobby
Hello, hope everyone is doing well.
Can I just ask a quick question regarding an issue I am having with my FECO separating from the olive oil I am using as a carrier. I understand from getting feedback from Sue that olive oil is the best carrier for lung cancer, but at the moment it seems like once I have made the capsules, I can see that the FECO collects at the bottom of the capsules. I therefore doubt that I am emulsifying the FECO with the olive oil and lecithin properly. Just wondering if anyone has any pointers on where I may be going wrong. Thanks
Can I just ask a quick question regarding an issue I am having with my FECO separating from the olive oil I am using as a carrier. I understand from getting feedback from Sue that olive oil is the best carrier for lung cancer, but at the moment it seems like once I have made the capsules, I can see that the FECO collects at the bottom of the capsules. I therefore doubt that I am emulsifying the FECO with the olive oil and lecithin properly. Just wondering if anyone has any pointers on where I may be going wrong. Thanks
KingstonRabbi
Well-Known Member
Hi Gagsy,
I usually need to mix, chill, and re-mix/chill at least once even with olive oil. 5-10 minutes of mixing is not too much. The chill phase is when the oils bond, at least 12 hours if not 24. You can allow it to warm up to room temp for remixing but don't heat it or you may break the bonds that have formed.
Also be sure you are using extra-virgin olive oil. Lighter processed olive oils have fewer long-chained fatty acids that make EVOO such a good carrier.
And liquid sunflower lecithin bonds better than soy lecithin in addition to being better for you and the environment.
KingstonRabbi
Well-Known Member
I've sometimes wondered if Mara had a loved one who died trying to use suppositories. There's an irrational vehemence against them that she's recently modified. Fact is, some patients respond well to suppositories and some don't. Even Mara will admit that, although I can see it bothers her not to understand why this works. This is the way with all administration pathways. Some patients will respond and others won't.
My theory is that it's what you believe going in. If you have faith in the protocol your ECS will respond accordingly.
*sigh* Why would we attempt to make the expensive and difficult to source medication more bioavailable by introducing some simple additions to the regimen?
The field is torn about suppositories. There are canna physicians who swear by them, and others who insist it's physically impossible to have THC in your system to those levels and not feel it.
So let's toss this around a bit. Oils don't absorb well through the lower gut. We surround our cannabinoids with lecithin, which is absorbed into the system from anywhere you introduce it. So is it reasonable to expect that those cannabinoids are indeed being absorbed? Is it possible that once absorbed into the system the reason that you don't feel the effects of the metabolized THC is that a struggling system will have a desperate need for those cannabinoids, and they don't make it to the liver to be converted precisely because the majority of them did exactly what we hoped they'd do when we introduced them?
Regarding the suppository conundrum I want to expand on two points Sue made.
1) I suspect the naysayers are not taking into account the effect of adding lecithin. CCO without lecithin does not absorb well because the body is mostly water. The lecithin has a hydrophilic head (attracted to water) that that does absorb well, and a hydrophobic tail (attracted to oil) that attached to the CCO and drags it along. If we used plain CCO without lecithin the suppository nay-sayers would be right that it's not being absorbed effectively. This is why it is so important to thoroughly blend/chill the biobomb mix and wait to be sure it doesn't separate.
2) When we feel the euphoric effects of cannabis it's because it is attaching to receptors on cells in the central nervous system. When cannabinoids attach to cells other than the CNS we feel little or no effect, but that doesn't mean it isn't present and working where we want it. They spend very little time in the blood stream and move toward lipid-friendly targets like the cell membranes. Furthermore, by avoiding first pass through the liver very little gets metabolized into 11-hydroxy-THC that is a) 4 times more intoxicating than delta-9-THC and b) stays in blood stream longer so more of it can reach the CNS and be felt as euphoria.
Most people including doctors are so familiar with cannabis as a recreational drug that they assume if it doesn't cause intoxication/euphoria that it must not be present and active. The irony is that any euphoria we feel means that cannabinoids are not treating cancer or other physiological conditions. Likewise blood tests do not correlate directly with the amount of cannabinoids active at the cellular level where we want them.
I hope that makes sense. In determining absorption and effectiveness of suppositories we need to 1) distinguish between properly prepared CCO (i.e. Bio Bombs) and plain CCO, and 2) ignore assumptions that equate euphoria with effectiveness level.
Thank you KR. That made so much sense. We may be close to the response that meets those inquiries more effectively. We know suppositories work, at least the ones made as biobombs. It's a matter of being able to explain it in a way we can all accept as rational. Without proper testing and imaging there's so much that's still a mystery.
Thank God we all care enough to do our best to figure it all out.
Thank God we all care enough to do our best to figure it all out.
CCOiler
Well-Known Member
I have the same results nobby32, I put the Olive Oil into a hot water bath bringing the water to a boil then I turn the heat off. I put the CCO into the Virgin Olive Oil, once the CCO heats up I mix for several minutes and then I do the same with the Lecithin, then I put it into the fridge for 24hrs, take out and mix good, then back into the fridge for 12-24hrs.........time to make Biobombs!!
KISS....Keep It Simple Silly Yes I'm using gelatin capsules 00 and the CCO is CO^2 extracted.....huh....not sure whats going on.
On a side note, my mom is doing very well. She had her second cycle of chemo and has only had minor discomfort...we are so happy for that(four more to go)
CCSC
Hi everyone. First and foremost, I want to say thank you to everyone that participates and supports one another on these tough situations. Stronger together.
I'll be honest - there is so much information here, my head is kind of spinning and I'm having trouble distilling it down to an actionable plan. So if you don't mind a quick background story, maybe some of you can help point me in the right direction to get things started.
I'm actually doing all this research for my wonderful mother. She was first diagnosed with OC in 1999. She's still going strong fighting this terrible disease off and on for over 18 years - so you can do it! Unfortunately, the OC keeps coming back. She has had multiple surgeries, multiple rounds of chemo, but those treatments only beat the cancer back so much. At some point the OC becomes untraceable, but due to the nature of the disease it's always there in small traces and eventually makes its way back to a size that's detectable once again. Then we start the process over with more surgery, more chemo, etc. She has been through that cycle 5 times. It's tough to watch.
OC is known for invading the lining of your organs. This time it's in the lining of her lungs, which is even more troublesome than before. I have done tons of reading about how THC/CBD oil can actually kill cancer and help with some of the tougher chemo symptoms. I just recently convinced my mother to give it a try because what does she have to lose. It has taken me years to convince my mother to even have interest in taking cannabis oil, so I'm trying to figure out what's the easiest way to administer the oil and ease someone into the THC when they have barely even touch a drop of alcohol. I'm worried that suppositories and complex administration will scare her back away trying this.
Where do I even begin? Please help. Thank you
I'll be honest - there is so much information here, my head is kind of spinning and I'm having trouble distilling it down to an actionable plan. So if you don't mind a quick background story, maybe some of you can help point me in the right direction to get things started.
I'm actually doing all this research for my wonderful mother. She was first diagnosed with OC in 1999. She's still going strong fighting this terrible disease off and on for over 18 years - so you can do it! Unfortunately, the OC keeps coming back. She has had multiple surgeries, multiple rounds of chemo, but those treatments only beat the cancer back so much. At some point the OC becomes untraceable, but due to the nature of the disease it's always there in small traces and eventually makes its way back to a size that's detectable once again. Then we start the process over with more surgery, more chemo, etc. She has been through that cycle 5 times. It's tough to watch.
OC is known for invading the lining of your organs. This time it's in the lining of her lungs, which is even more troublesome than before. I have done tons of reading about how THC/CBD oil can actually kill cancer and help with some of the tougher chemo symptoms. I just recently convinced my mother to give it a try because what does she have to lose. It has taken me years to convince my mother to even have interest in taking cannabis oil, so I'm trying to figure out what's the easiest way to administer the oil and ease someone into the THC when they have barely even touch a drop of alcohol. I'm worried that suppositories and complex administration will scare her back away trying this.
Where do I even begin? Please help. Thank you
KingstonRabbi
Well-Known Member
Hi everyone. First and foremost, I want to say thank you to everyone that participates and supports one another on these tough situations. Stronger together.
I'll be honest - there is so much information here, my head is kind of spinning and I'm having trouble distilling it down to an actionable plan. So if you don't mind a quick background story, maybe some of you can help point me in the right direction to get things started.
I'm actually doing all this research for my wonderful mother. She was first diagnosed with OC in 1999. She's still going strong fighting this terrible disease off and on for over 18 years - so you can do it! Unfortunately, the OC keeps coming back. She has had multiple surgeries, multiple rounds of chemo, but those treatments only beat the cancer back so much. At some point the OC becomes untraceable, but due to the nature of the disease it's always there in small traces and eventually makes its way back to a size that's detectable once again. Then we start the process over with more surgery, more chemo, etc. She has been through that cycle 5 times. It's tough to watch.
OC is known for invading the lining of your organs. This time it's in the lining of her lungs, which is even more troublesome than before. I have done tons of reading about how THC/CBD oil can actually kill cancer and help with some of the tougher chemo symptoms. I just recently convinced my mother to give it a try because what does she have to lose. It has taken me years to convince my mother to even have interest in taking cannabis oil, so I'm trying to figure out what's the easiest way to administer the oil and ease someone into the THC when they have barely even touch a drop of alcohol. I'm worried that suppositories and complex administration will scare her back away trying this.
Where do I even begin? Please help. Thank you
Welcome!
The place to start is cajun's first entry on page one. It seems complicated at first, but after you read that a couple times we can break it down into easily managed pieces and work on them one at a time. Put as simply as possible:
We use a blend of cannabis oil, extravirgin olive oil and liquid sunflower lecithin (aka the Bio Bomb) that maximizes the bioavailability of the cannabinoids.
We use combination of tacking (placing cannabis oil on gums) and suppositories (gel caps, no mess) to maximize absorption and avoid 1st pass by the liver to keep cannabinoids in most effective form/avoid euphoria.
We use supplements to keep the liver busy and increase the effectiveness of cannabinoids against cancer.
It can seem daunting to get started but once you do start the day to day routine is very simple.
I understand your resistance to using suppositories. I was the same way at first. Link below is to page I created to show just how easy and normal it can be. I made the video in my office at work. With gel caps it really can be done anywhere anytime without fuss. It is truly amazing how much cannabis oil one can take as suppository with minimal psycho-active effect.
How to take a CCO capsule suppository
First step would be to obtain and prepare your cannabis oil. Sue has a page dedicated to that, but first read and re-read cajun's first post and first few pages to get general understanding of the regimen, then we can start answering your questions in more detail step by step.
And give Mom a hug from me.
NeedtoHeal
New Member
Hello everyone
Another new person here. I have been reading these forums for several months, the information you thoughtful, intelligent people provide is incredible. I am a member of several other medicinal cannabis forums and nothing even comes close to the amount of valuable information found here.
I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, here is my story;
I am the caregiver to my husband , diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer at the age of 41, almost exactly a year ago to the day. Spread was extensive, liver, lungs, abdominal wall, lymph nodes. Several doctors at diagnosis gave us a month!
We reluctantly did 5 months of the standard Folfox chemotherapy, until the neuropathy in hands and feet became unbearable.
While going through chemo treatment I began to research more and more about using cannabis oil to help with symptoms and it's potential to put cancer into remission
As with all newbies we spent several weeks and several hundreds of dollars trying to work out what on earth we were doing with the oil. Much trial and error and then stumbling upon this forum allowed us to better perfect the method.
We did 5 months of the year on chemo, with very little change in the size of any of the tumors.
Then 4 months on cannabis oil, taken orally in capsules with oils added to increase bioavailabilty, we made sure to drink plenty of green tea for demethylation.
Cannabis is not legal in our state so we had to source the plant from friends and make our own oil which we did from a variety of high THC strains. We also used some good quality CBD separately.
So, while we were doing chemo alone there was little difference in the size of the tumors, with maybe just a little shrinkage to the ones on the liver. Tumor markers went way down and then started to rise.
On the cannabis oil for 4 months, everything has remained fairly stable with maybe just a little growth to some of the tumors,
We would like to continue but over the last 2 months every time my husband ingests the oil he gets excruciating pain in the areas where the tumors are. Agonizing, teeth grinding pain regardless of which strains we use
It got to the point where last week he decided that he just wasn't able to continue on the oil anymore and we are now faced with the possibility of having to return to chemo
We had a scan this past weekend which again showed mostly stability although his tumor marker has gone sky high
All his blood work and liver enzymes are excellent
I don't know what we did wrong. I'd love to think we were doing something right and all that pain corresponded to tumor death, but I think that is extremely wishful thinking
He also has lost a lot of weight over the past few months becasue he just has no appetite and a chronic low level pain
I am devastated becasue he is now taking opiates, anti nausea medication, anti constipation, an appetite stimulant and is thinking about taking an anti depressant. It makes my cry to look at all these medication bottles on the nightstand when I believe that cannabis could replace every one of them
We must be doing something wrong?, or is he just one of those people for whom cannabis will do nothing beneficial?
He did get euphoria, an increase in appetite , no pain and was certainly feeling the high for the first couple of months, but as time has gone on all those positives disappeared and all he was getting was pain
We tried deceasing the dose but this made no difference. We tried micro dosing through the day , still so much pain
Everything we did was orally in capsule form, with some vaping which again, used to bring pain relief and help with appetite but now does nothing
I understand the receptors need cleaning , we have been thinking we were doing that with all the green tea and the occasional mango! and I understand maybe you need to stop and take a break sometimes, but now he is so afraid of the pain that he is very reluctant to try again
Maybe we should try suppositories or tacking? do you think either would make a difference to the pain?
I'd be so, so grateful for any advice you lovely people could offer?
Just as an aside, I have a degree in plant biochemistry albeit from many moons ago, but I completed a final year project on an extract from sage and peppermint plants as a potential HIV medication precursor.I'm very rusty and don;t remember many details anymore but all this cannabis research this year has rekindled my passion for the subject, I have absolute faith in the plant to heal. I just wish I could find a way for it to work for my husband
Another new person here. I have been reading these forums for several months, the information you thoughtful, intelligent people provide is incredible. I am a member of several other medicinal cannabis forums and nothing even comes close to the amount of valuable information found here.
I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, here is my story;
I am the caregiver to my husband , diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer at the age of 41, almost exactly a year ago to the day. Spread was extensive, liver, lungs, abdominal wall, lymph nodes. Several doctors at diagnosis gave us a month!
We reluctantly did 5 months of the standard Folfox chemotherapy, until the neuropathy in hands and feet became unbearable.
While going through chemo treatment I began to research more and more about using cannabis oil to help with symptoms and it's potential to put cancer into remission
As with all newbies we spent several weeks and several hundreds of dollars trying to work out what on earth we were doing with the oil. Much trial and error and then stumbling upon this forum allowed us to better perfect the method.
We did 5 months of the year on chemo, with very little change in the size of any of the tumors.
Then 4 months on cannabis oil, taken orally in capsules with oils added to increase bioavailabilty, we made sure to drink plenty of green tea for demethylation.
Cannabis is not legal in our state so we had to source the plant from friends and make our own oil which we did from a variety of high THC strains. We also used some good quality CBD separately.
So, while we were doing chemo alone there was little difference in the size of the tumors, with maybe just a little shrinkage to the ones on the liver. Tumor markers went way down and then started to rise.
On the cannabis oil for 4 months, everything has remained fairly stable with maybe just a little growth to some of the tumors,
We would like to continue but over the last 2 months every time my husband ingests the oil he gets excruciating pain in the areas where the tumors are. Agonizing, teeth grinding pain regardless of which strains we use
It got to the point where last week he decided that he just wasn't able to continue on the oil anymore and we are now faced with the possibility of having to return to chemo
We had a scan this past weekend which again showed mostly stability although his tumor marker has gone sky high
All his blood work and liver enzymes are excellent
I don't know what we did wrong. I'd love to think we were doing something right and all that pain corresponded to tumor death, but I think that is extremely wishful thinking
He also has lost a lot of weight over the past few months becasue he just has no appetite and a chronic low level pain
I am devastated becasue he is now taking opiates, anti nausea medication, anti constipation, an appetite stimulant and is thinking about taking an anti depressant. It makes my cry to look at all these medication bottles on the nightstand when I believe that cannabis could replace every one of them
We must be doing something wrong?, or is he just one of those people for whom cannabis will do nothing beneficial?
He did get euphoria, an increase in appetite , no pain and was certainly feeling the high for the first couple of months, but as time has gone on all those positives disappeared and all he was getting was pain
We tried deceasing the dose but this made no difference. We tried micro dosing through the day , still so much pain
Everything we did was orally in capsule form, with some vaping which again, used to bring pain relief and help with appetite but now does nothing
I understand the receptors need cleaning , we have been thinking we were doing that with all the green tea and the occasional mango! and I understand maybe you need to stop and take a break sometimes, but now he is so afraid of the pain that he is very reluctant to try again
Maybe we should try suppositories or tacking? do you think either would make a difference to the pain?
I'd be so, so grateful for any advice you lovely people could offer?
Just as an aside, I have a degree in plant biochemistry albeit from many moons ago, but I completed a final year project on an extract from sage and peppermint plants as a potential HIV medication precursor.I'm very rusty and don;t remember many details anymore but all this cannabis research this year has rekindled my passion for the subject, I have absolute faith in the plant to heal. I just wish I could find a way for it to work for my husband
Hello everyone
Another new person here. I have been reading these forums for several months, the information you thoughtful, intelligent people provide is incredible. I am a member of several other medicinal cannabis forums and nothing even comes close to the amount of valuable information found here.
I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, here is my story;
I am the caregiver to my husband , diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer at the age of 41, almost exactly a year ago to the day. Spread was extensive, liver, lungs, abdominal wall, lymph nodes. Several doctors at diagnosis gave us a month!
We reluctantly did 5 months of the standard Folfox chemotherapy, until the neuropathy in hands and feet became unbearable.
While going through chemo treatment I began to research more and more about using cannabis oil to help with symptoms and it's potential to put cancer into remission
As with all newbies we spent several weeks and several hundreds of dollars trying to work out what on earth we were doing with the oil. Much trial and error and then stumbling upon this forum allowed us to better perfect the method.
We did 5 months of the year on chemo, with very little change in the size of any of the tumors.
Then 4 months on cannabis oil, taken orally in capsules with oils added to increase bioavailabilty, we made sure to drink plenty of green tea for demethylation.
Cannabis is not legal in our state so we had to source the plant from friends and make our own oil which we did from a variety of high THC strains. We also used some good quality CBD separately.
So, while we were doing chemo alone there was little difference in the size of the tumors, with maybe just a little shrinkage to the ones on the liver. Tumor markers went way down and then started to rise.
On the cannabis oil for 4 months, everything has remained fairly stable with maybe just a little growth to some of the tumors,
We would like to continue but over the last 2 months every time my husband ingests the oil he gets excruciating pain in the areas where the tumors are. Agonizing, teeth grinding pain regardless of which strains we use
It got to the point where last week he decided that he just wasn't able to continue on the oil anymore and we are now faced with the possibility of having to return to chemo
We had a scan this past weekend which again showed mostly stability although his tumor marker has gone sky high
All his blood work and liver enzymes are excellent
I don't know what we did wrong. I'd love to think we were doing something right and all that pain corresponded to tumor death, but I think that is extremely wishful thinking
He also has lost a lot of weight over the past few months becasue he just has no appetite and a chronic low level pain
I am devastated becasue he is now taking opiates, anti nausea medication, anti constipation, an appetite stimulant and is thinking about taking an anti depressant. It makes my cry to look at all these medication bottles on the nightstand when I believe that cannabis could replace every one of them
We must be doing something wrong?, or is he just one of those people for whom cannabis will do nothing beneficial?
He did get euphoria, an increase in appetite , no pain and was certainly feeling the high for the first couple of months, but as time has gone on all those positives disappeared and all he was getting was pain
We tried deceasing the dose but this made no difference. We tried micro dosing through the day , still so much pain
Everything we did was orally in capsule form, with some vaping which again, used to bring pain relief and help with appetite but now does nothing
I understand the receptors need cleaning , we have been thinking we were doing that with all the green tea and the occasional mango! and I understand maybe you need to stop and take a break sometimes, but now he is so afraid of the pain that he is very reluctant to try again
Maybe we should try suppositories or tacking? do you think either would make a difference to the pain?
I'd be so, so grateful for any advice you lovely people could offer?
Just as an aside, I have a degree in plant biochemistry albeit from many moons ago, but I completed a final year project on an extract from sage and peppermint plants as a potential HIV medication precursor.I'm very rusty and don;t remember many details anymore but all this cannabis research this year has rekindled my passion for the subject, I have absolute faith in the plant to heal. I just wish I could find a way for it to work for my husband
NeedtoHeal. While WGL08 catches up with the first page I'll see what I can do to help you feel this out. Quite a mystery you have on your hands. I have no explaination for why this pain has occured, but I find it significant that your dosing has been oral throughout. If it were me, I'd be switching to suppositories, with tacking as a preparatory dose.
I find myself wondering if there's not a connection between his pain and the inflammation that must be going on in his gut from the chemo. Mara once stated that she never met a chemo patient that wasn't inflammed from lips to anus. The gut has the wonderful ability to spread that inflammation throughout the body,
and if this is what's going on you'll need to tend to reducing the gut inflammation with probiotics and anything you can think of. Acacia powder is a great additive. Do you know the chemovar, or strain used for the oils, and could you be more descriptive of the process you used to prepare your oil for capsules?
Lung cancer has been known to respond to a 4:1 THC:CBD ratio, and in your case I'd get that CBD as high as I could. At the very least shoot for a 2:1 ratio, if you're not already there. It sounds like your husband may have a fair amount of inflammation going on.
A thought: do you have any topicals available? It suddenly occured to me that a strong topical might be a way to get cannabinoids into the body in a pinch, or as an additional pathway. I believe we underestimate the healing potential of a strong topical. For one, it can do miraculous things for neuropathy over time. It can take months, but we're hearing happy rumblings from the trenches. Allied to the palms and the bottoms of the feet it may mute the pain he's now getting from oral doses. Like I said, topicals are highly underestimated.
If your husband is one of the rare cases that doesn't respond to cannabinoid therapies this shouldn't be taken as bad news at all, just a sign that a different healing modality is necessary. The Endocannabinoid system's job is spontaneous healing, and there are any number of ways to support a struggling system and get back to homeostasis, regardless of the starting point.
There's a method called the Budwig protocol that uses a combination of freshly-ground flax seed and cottage cheese to create an internal cellular environment so charged with oxygen that cancer cells die off from the atmosphere. Oxygen is the enemy of cancer cells. That's just one part of the overall program, but it's just amazing how ingenious that step is.
One can laugh your way to healing, which makes perfect sense when you consider that laughter releases all tension in the body, so now the ECS can pick up the vibrations of sick cells and go to work changing their signals to promote healing.
Two brief examples to demonstrate the abundance of potential treatments before you. But first, let's see if the suppository route can put an end to the pain your beloved is experiencing, because nothing else will supply cannabinoids like cannabis can. Are you familiar with the first two pages of Cajun's directions?
Creating the healing environment for cancer is all-inclusive, as you well know. This thread deals with some finer points of bioavailability through the method we use to produce our biobomb capsules, the use of components to distract the liver enzymes, and methods of demethylation, which I notice you're already using. We assume you've attended to things like cleaning up his diet.
As a side note, there's a movement system called Feldenkrais. The movements are designed to reconnect the brain and the body. They're very simple to do, and you can find materials on it just about anywhere in the world. I was taught a short version of them as a prelude to the Callanetics program I personally do. I taught the Feldenkrais movements to my husband, who'd suffered with neuropathy in his feet for more than a decade, and within three days of starting he had feeling return in his feet. It might be worth looking into at some point.
So...... stop beating yourself up.
From the sound of it you did everything correctly. Cannabis requires you to play trial-and-error. No one gets a free pass from that. 
We'll figure this out. We never know when someone who has our answers will stop and inspire us. Take heart. I've never met a more inspired group than this. I have tremendous faith in their ability to gather the wagons and help you find your way out of this temporary block to your plans to grow old with your love. I'm glad you stepped out to ask for help. That's a lot to carry around alone girl.
[video=youtube;aaJL2qsM3ms]https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaJL2qsM3ms[/video]
This video is loaded with information on cannabis oil dosing for pediatric cancer patients. I'm about halfway through, but I felt it was relevant enough to include here. Somewhere in this presentation is her support for splitting the major cannabinoid doses by at least two hours. I'm hoping it's compelling enough to change my mind about it.
It's a testament to my respect for Mara and her work that I'll keep studying it to find the piece of this puzzle I must have missed.
My brain's fried. Thanks for letting me be a part of this guys. Time to hit the Chem Dawg and call it a night. Until tomorrow, my friends. 
This video is loaded with information on cannabis oil dosing for pediatric cancer patients. I'm about halfway through, but I felt it was relevant enough to include here. Somewhere in this presentation is her support for splitting the major cannabinoid doses by at least two hours. I'm hoping it's compelling enough to change my mind about it.
It's a testament to my respect for Mara and her work that I'll keep studying it to find the piece of this puzzle I must have missed. My brain's fried. Thanks for letting me be a part of this guys.
Time to hit the Chem Dawg and call it a night. Until tomorrow, my friends. NeedtoHeal
New Member
Do you know the chemovar, or strain used for the oils, and could you be more descriptive of the process you used to prepare your oil for capsules?
Hi Sue
Thank you so very much for your response, you have no idea how much I appreciate being able to talk to someone about this without them looking at me as if I'm crazy. Many members of family and friends have said they have no objection to what we are trying to do, but I know they think we are being naive and reckless by not doing any more chemotherapy, and maybe we are, maybe we could find a way to do both, but I'm wondering off track here.
Your reply brought tears to my eyes, tears of joy and relief as I said to finally be able to talk to someone who knows what I'm talking about. I have been bearing this alone for over a year now and it's the hardest thing I have ever had to do.
To answer your above question, most of the strains we have been able to get a hold of have been Sativas or sativa dominant hybrids which I know is probably not ideal. Some of the strains I know we have used have been
Jack Herer, Girl Scout cookies, Hong Kong and just a little of some form of Kush. I know, not ideal but we have had a really difficult time finding anyone who can supply us with a pure Indica strain. Also it has been hard to get a consistent amount of anything aside form the Herer which we are able to get a consistent supply of organically locally grown.
Do you think this lack of Indica alone is why we've been dealing with so much pain?
What you said about inflammation make much sense, I've long suspected that inflammation is a big part of the pain, we will try the Acacia powder, thank you for the suggestion and for the movement idea. I know he isn't moving enough. He used to be very fit and active but I think both the low level chronic pain and a certain amount of depression are preventing him from doing any exercise and I know that can't be helping with inflammation.
We'll give suppositories and tacking a go.
Hi Sue
Thank you so very much for your response, you have no idea how much I appreciate being able to talk to someone about this without them looking at me as if I'm crazy. Many members of family and friends have said they have no objection to what we are trying to do, but I know they think we are being naive and reckless by not doing any more chemotherapy, and maybe we are, maybe we could find a way to do both, but I'm wondering off track here.
Your reply brought tears to my eyes, tears of joy and relief as I said to finally be able to talk to someone who knows what I'm talking about. I have been bearing this alone for over a year now and it's the hardest thing I have ever had to do.
To answer your above question, most of the strains we have been able to get a hold of have been Sativas or sativa dominant hybrids which I know is probably not ideal. Some of the strains I know we have used have been
Jack Herer, Girl Scout cookies, Hong Kong and just a little of some form of Kush. I know, not ideal but we have had a really difficult time finding anyone who can supply us with a pure Indica strain. Also it has been hard to get a consistent amount of anything aside form the Herer which we are able to get a consistent supply of organically locally grown.
Do you think this lack of Indica alone is why we've been dealing with so much pain?
What you said about inflammation make much sense, I've long suspected that inflammation is a big part of the pain, we will try the Acacia powder, thank you for the suggestion and for the movement idea. I know he isn't moving enough. He used to be very fit and active but I think both the low level chronic pain and a certain amount of depression are preventing him from doing any exercise and I know that can't be helping with inflammation.
We'll give suppositories and tacking a go.
Glad to help ease that weight.
I believe the instructions to choose indicas is rooted in the reality that pure indicas will produce the highest concentrations of both total essential oils and THC. Sativas typically bring a lower oil yield, and when you're trying to keep up with a gram a day of CCO this gets to be problamatic. Indicas finish faster than sativas too, again affecting the yield potentials.
Now that we know how much less it really takes to make a difference in most cancer treatments that doesn't concern me as much. Indicas are preferred for sleep meds. I have one of those systems that can handle sativas right up to when I run out of steam and finally head for bed.
I've been thinking about it all day long, and I'd bet the inflammation has more to do with that pain than anything, and for some reason the THC is lighting the pain receptors up. It may simply be his body crying out for relief from the damage the chemo did. I'm hoping the suppositories don't cause the same response. The capsules make perfectly good suppositories. Don't stress yourself trying to make formed ones.
You walked into one of the best families you never knew you had.
These people saved me from the depths of grief and they work with such delight to get this information out there it thrills me to be standing with them. They inspire me. You'll be breathing much easier in a couple more days. The membership has that effect on you.
Make movement a game. Keep him laughing. It's surprising how quickly the body responds.
[video=youtube;aaJL2qsM3ms]https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaJL2qsM3ms[/video]
At 1:04:11 she's offering some decent advice.
If you have a child being treated with cannabis containing THC get a prescription for Marinol. You don't have to ever use it, but if the child gets tested and it comes back positive for THC you have an acceptable explaination no one can question.
The lab equipment can't distinguish the THC from your oil from the THC in Marinol.
Some important points about metabolization that can't be repeated often enough:
1:04:12 "Also, the adherence to the protocol.... I had mentioned earlier of course, about what happens when they take the two strains, they mix them together, you don't have the effectiveness. If you are taking other drugs for part of your treatment.. you're taking pharmaceuticals that metabolize through the cytochrome P450 in your liver you need to take THC and CBD separately, at least one to two hours apart.
The THC will make the liver enzyme that filters the pharmaceutical much lazier, uh... just like it does us. It'll make it much lazier, and it will increase the potency of whatever the dosage that you're taking. So if you're supposed to be on 25 mg it'll feel like a hell of a lot more than 25 mg if you take them at the same time.
Conversely, if you take things that're high in CBD at the same time you take these drugs that go through this pathway, then it will.. it makes the filter stronger, and as a result you get less of the therapeutic dose from the pharmaceuticals you're taking."
Earlier in the presentation she addresses the separating out of the two dominant chemovars used to treat disease. The case used as the example is a young boy who wasn't responding well to chemo, from her description a child in deep pain, with sores around the mouth and diaper area. The parents had decided to save themselves time and combined the two oils into one. The child presented to Mara as lethargic, almost in fetal position. Then she explains:
50:08 "When you have 590 mg CBD in one strain and 700 mg of another, and you mix them together they're not going to...the CB1 and CB2 receptor sites aren't gonna have an opportunity to do their job, because you're drowning it all out with the CBD, which is an antagonist."
I realize the official line is that CBD is an antagonist, but that's not strictly true, and it confuses the picture to say so. CBD works to modulate the expression of THC, and we don't yet understand exactly what that translates into in the human body. This looks like a case of overwhelming the system, coming in with a hammer when a gentler touch was called for.
Incidentally, following that proclaimation she goes on to tell how the child responded dramatically - within minutes - to the application of an incredible topical they produce, rich in cannabinoids as well as essential oils chosen for their medicinal values. I've heard marvelous things about this cream. If you can get your hands on it I'd be all over that.
In this case it transformed a lethargic child into one bouncing around the home, laughing and engaging, asking for something to drink.
The improvement she described had nothing to do with the separation of his cannabinoid doses, but that may have been implied, but lost in the telling.
So.... I hear her. I'm not certain I buy that CBD is an antagonist, but if you're doing multiple doses in a day, which we highly recommend, it can't hurt to split up the THC-dominant oils from the ones high in CBD.
You know, it occurs to me that what we suggest in competitive inhibition must sound as crazy to them as their suggestion to use cannabis sounds crazy to the conventional medical professionals. I prefer to be open to new inspiration. Kingston Rabbi can feel the difference in dose effectiveness when he takes two apignen capsules before the cannabinoid dose. Apignen is a potent cancer-fighter on its own. Cajun's oncologist once recommended up to 1,500 mg a day. It's a small thing with big payoffs. Rant over. Lol!
Nice quote from Mara that stuck with me:
"To a hammer everything looks like a nail. Thankfully cannabis isn't a hammer. It's the whole toolbox."
Class.
At 1:04:11 she's offering some decent advice.
If you have a child being treated with cannabis containing THC get a prescription for Marinol. You don't have to ever use it, but if the child gets tested and it comes back positive for THC you have an acceptable explaination no one can question.
The lab equipment can't distinguish the THC from your oil from the THC in Marinol.
Some important points about metabolization that can't be repeated often enough:
1:04:12 "Also, the adherence to the protocol.... I had mentioned earlier of course, about what happens when they take the two strains, they mix them together, you don't have the effectiveness. If you are taking other drugs for part of your treatment.. you're taking pharmaceuticals that metabolize through the cytochrome P450 in your liver you need to take THC and CBD separately, at least one to two hours apart.
The THC will make the liver enzyme that filters the pharmaceutical much lazier, uh... just like it does us. It'll make it much lazier, and it will increase the potency of whatever the dosage that you're taking. So if you're supposed to be on 25 mg it'll feel like a hell of a lot more than 25 mg if you take them at the same time.
Conversely, if you take things that're high in CBD at the same time you take these drugs that go through this pathway, then it will.. it makes the filter stronger, and as a result you get less of the therapeutic dose from the pharmaceuticals you're taking."
Earlier in the presentation she addresses the separating out of the two dominant chemovars used to treat disease. The case used as the example is a young boy who wasn't responding well to chemo, from her description a child in deep pain, with sores around the mouth and diaper area. The parents had decided to save themselves time and combined the two oils into one. The child presented to Mara as lethargic, almost in fetal position. Then she explains:
50:08 "When you have 590 mg CBD in one strain and 700 mg of another, and you mix them together they're not going to...the CB1 and CB2 receptor sites aren't gonna have an opportunity to do their job, because you're drowning it all out with the CBD, which is an antagonist."
I realize the official line is that CBD is an antagonist, but that's not strictly true, and it confuses the picture to say so. CBD works to modulate the expression of THC, and we don't yet understand exactly what that translates into in the human body. This looks like a case of overwhelming the system, coming in with a hammer when a gentler touch was called for.
Incidentally, following that proclaimation she goes on to tell how the child responded dramatically - within minutes - to the application of an incredible topical they produce, rich in cannabinoids as well as essential oils chosen for their medicinal values. I've heard marvelous things about this cream. If you can get your hands on it I'd be all over that.
In this case it transformed a lethargic child into one bouncing around the home, laughing and engaging, asking for something to drink. The improvement she described had nothing to do with the separation of his cannabinoid doses, but that may have been implied, but lost in the telling.
So.... I hear her. I'm not certain I buy that CBD is an antagonist, but if you're doing multiple doses in a day, which we highly recommend, it can't hurt to split up the THC-dominant oils from the ones high in CBD.
You know, it occurs to me that what we suggest in competitive inhibition must sound as crazy to them as their suggestion to use cannabis sounds crazy to the conventional medical professionals. I prefer to be open to new inspiration. Kingston Rabbi can feel the difference in dose effectiveness when he takes two apignen capsules before the cannabinoid dose. Apignen is a potent cancer-fighter on its own. Cajun's oncologist once recommended up to 1,500 mg a day. It's a small thing with big payoffs. Rant over. Lol!
Nice quote from Mara that stuck with me:
"To a hammer everything looks like a nail. Thankfully cannabis isn't a hammer. It's the whole toolbox."
Class.
@SweetSue I was doing a little research about labs in my area that test for THCV when I came across an article that suggested that employers test for THCV as a way of distinguishing Marinol and cannabis use. It was actually written in 1999.
I used to be in the drug treatment field and I wasn't aware of any labs back in the 90s that would test somebody's urine for thcv, but I wouldn't be surprised if the professional Labs aren't doing that now.
Most medical laboratories wouldn't test for the thcv they would possibly only test for the metabolites of THC. Professional Labs would follow up a positive with thin layer chromatography. I just don't think most medical laboratories care
So I suppose the big concern would be who would be doing the testing? If it were criminal justice or social services you could probably bet they would use the lab that would be hip to the Marinol prescription.
In fact, now that I think of it I remember there were always new things coming out to hide or alter urine samples. I even remember some powdered urine that was just Add Water back in the day. The labs always figured that stuff out and started testing for it.
I used to be in the drug treatment field and I wasn't aware of any labs back in the 90s that would test somebody's urine for thcv, but I wouldn't be surprised if the professional Labs aren't doing that now.
Most medical laboratories wouldn't test for the thcv they would possibly only test for the metabolites of THC. Professional Labs would follow up a positive with thin layer chromatography. I just don't think most medical laboratories care
So I suppose the big concern would be who would be doing the testing? If it were criminal justice or social services you could probably bet they would use the lab that would be hip to the Marinol prescription.
In fact, now that I think of it I remember there were always new things coming out to hide or alter urine samples. I even remember some powdered urine that was just Add Water back in the day. The labs always figured that stuff out and started testing for it.
NeedtoHeal; I think it might be an idea to look up "cachexia" and see if you can get any supplements or medicines to deal specifically with this; in cancer it is the peculiar cancer driven weight loss, particularly of muscle, not just fat - that causes patients to become so thin; it involves inflammation and can't be corrected by good nutrition, so shouldn't be (as it often is) confused with ordinary weight loss caused by not eating enough. Since that is often going on at the same time, the cachexia goes unnoticed. It makes scary reading, I'm afraid, especially as it has only recently been recognised, and treatments are imperfect or undergoing research. However, I think you need to have a look at that specifically - maybe your husband is suffering the effects of this and cannabis would work better if a targeted drug could control it a little.
