Budding & Flowering Marijuana

[Rofloki]

Thanks for the advice, D.P.

It looks to me that my plant has 100% milky trichs on the top buds. Amber ones are increasing, but at a slow pace in the rest of the plant. Maybe outdoor takes a bit longer.

I'm still checking the white pistils, no amber trichs on those. I see most pistils mainly white. I know you have one like this. Are you gonna wait until pistils turn brown?

I have decided not to harvest all of it. I understand from what you say that with 100% milky trichs, THC is at its peak. It wont increase. So the top buds are ready.

I just think that those white pistils are related with the still-clear trichs, so I'll keep a close look and hopefully when pistils turn brown (at least most of it), all of the trichs will be milky/cloudy. Just half of the plant is left.

Thanks again for your comments. Congrats on your award.


R.

 

[clever]

can you bring outside container plants that are almost done inside, the fall like weather has hit the mountians, every morning the are either dew, or rain soaked, and the sun does'nt show until about noon, but I have indoor set ups. what do you think?

 

[donpaul.p]

Hi mate,
yep you can bring outdoor plants indoors as long as you keep the lighting on the same schedule, so if you was just bringing them in for the night then as long as their getting light when the sun comes up then it wont change anything but would stop the plant getting to cold at night, so its fine to bring plants indoors when the weather changes.

i have got a plant like you said thats 100% cloudy, its still showing as 100% cloudy and pistils are still white, all the calyx or seed pods are swollen suggesting the plant is done but i know the stain im growing turns amber so ill keep it going as long as the plant looks ok, if it starts dying or going hermie then ill pull it down but for now its ok, when the plants are in flower you need to make sure its flushed and dried out properly, strain hunters flush theirs 3 times in flower as they say letting it dry out gets the most oxygen to the roots which helps with bud size, i know its to late for us to do this with ours but ill be trying it with my next round of plants,

thc is at its highest at 100% cloudy, so when its cloudy you can harvest, most indica strains will have a couch lock affect at 100% cloudy anyway so its not going to make a huge difference, i normally wait until 20 to 40% amber before harvest because i like to know my plants gone as far as its going to go and its not going to get bigger or swell up anymore, some indica plants dont turn amber though, you also need to check the trichs under natural light as hps or cfls wont let you see the amber trichs as well,

i check the main bud at top of the plant then check buds further down, when i see 20% amber at more than half the plant ill then harvest, but 100% cloudy is when the plant is fully mature and can be harvested, when the trichs turn amber the thc is degrading into cbn's which gives us the couch lock affect, but most indica strains will be a good couch lock at 100% cloudy so its just a matter of preference really, their isnt that much difference to be honest, if i mixed my jars up i dont think i could tell the difference between 100% cloudy and 20% amber as indica strains will be couch lock at 100% cloudy, its more with sativa strains that the difference is noticed,

but yep i got a big reveg plant thats 100% cloudy and calyx are all swollen, ive totally let the pot dry out so the pot is very light to pick up, ill leave it dry for a couple of days so the roots can get as much oxygen as they like then ill water with plant water and do the same again, water then let it dry out, i think ill be pulling it down in about 7 to 10 days as its not changed in 2 weeks, it looks exactly the same as it did 2 weeks ago,

 

[TestingCBD]

@testing cbd, your name interests me, are you working with cbd strains or planning to work with cbd strains, theirs a couple of growers on here who are producing strains that produce no thc and only produce cbd,
now to answer your questions,
1, the plant gets light from sun rise to sun set, if its cloudy it just gets less light, it has to be dark for the plant to get its night period, so if you check your sunrise and sunset times that will tell you when its getting light and when its not getting light, most outdoor plants dont get direct sunlight for more than a couple of hours a day, so a cloudy day is still giving the plants light just at a lower level, so if the suns up its getting light,
2, plants can weather quite well as long as their hardened to the weather, some growers keep plants in veg over the winter by having lights in the green house, so the greenhouse will be the best option for you getting these plants into flower without having pm issues, you may end up with purple buds due to outdoor been cooler as a lot of growers are seeing purple buds around this time of year and over the next month and 2 as plants get ready for harvest, it all depends where you are and how low the temps are going to get and how long you have left before you hit winter, but im pretty sure the green house would be the best option if you think outdoor temps are going to get pretty cold, the thing you dont want is a good frost as this will pretty much destroy the plant after a couple of frosty nights, so the greenhouse would keep the frost off and the plants should flower as normal.

3, when growing in the ground it depends whats in the ground all ready, if you got good composted ground then you may not need nothing, but most growers supliment with nutrients to get the best out of the plant, you would use a veg feed for the veg stage and a flower feed for the flower stage, fruit and veg nutrients are a bit hot for these plants so if you go with off the shelf products then start at 1/5th of the stated dose, make sure the nutrients are for edible plants, or check out our sponsors and get some products that are designed for these plants and proven to work, if you look below in my signature you will see a nutrient feed guide link, clicking on this will give you a list of products and tells you what doses you would normally be giving the plants at each stage of growth

Thanks.

To 1) So as an example/thought-experiment, if it is 10am and I stand in to block out its sunlight, this is considered "night" as for as the plant is concerned?

To 3) I pretty much just rely on my brother to mix up some molasses and bat guano into a 'tea.' We collected the guano 'free' from our family's summer cottage attic. (Finally those bats are useful.) I use that when I can. My brain isn't ready for more leg-work than that at the moment. I want to avoid incurring any expense.

Anyway, I had started to give up hope when just the last few days I see signs of incoming flowers, particularly on the ones that are last to get their direct sunlight. (They are shadowed by the roof of our house in the morning. Two plants are behind the 'peak' of the roof, and the others behind the gutter's shadow. Slanted roof...)

Its not much, but it has re-motivated me to want to put up some covering/greenhouse/plastic of some sort when I see a frost coming. Luckily the 10 day forecast has no frosts. Today was 6:30am to 6:20pm sunlight. This is exciting.

 

[donpaul.p]

the tea should be fine but some teas are suited for veg and some for flower, molasses is more suited for the flower side of things,

the teas ive come across are bat guano and sheep mess, and bat guano and lama mess, but not sure which is for veg and flower as i use nutrients from the sponsors, dogget simpons products seem to work very well and im getting great results with them,

as for the 10am thing yep your spot on, if the plants not getting any light then its doing its night time duties, so you can control the light and dark to suit you, just what we do indoors, your sunrise and sunset is exactly the flower schedule so most outdoor plants will be near harvest now or getting close to harvest, so you may need to protect it from the frost using some clear plastic but sounds like you got something in mind to keep the frost off,

the cooler temps may turn the buds purple and slow growth so try and protect it from the frost as much as you can, a green house would be idea but 1 plant in a big greenhouse wont realy keep the cold out, hopefully you can get something sorted so you can bring it to harvest.

 

[TestingCBD]

So I need to know where I am at at this stage. The plants' growth was stunted by a greenhouse roof during the summer months. I also plucked a few yellows that perhaps I shouldnt have in the late summer/september. So my plants look kinda spindly and weak to me, so Idk if I am flowering or budding or what...

 

[TestingCBD]

 

[TestingCBD]

 

[donpaul.p]

Hi,

the plant looks like its lacking in something, have you been feeding it at all, the ground your growing in may contain nothing beneficial for these plants, regular compost out of a bag only supports these plants without nutrients for about 4 weeks depending on pot size so we then have to supliment with nutrients to give the plants what they need and that will then produce good yields.

if your going to use off the shelf products then you need to go easy on the dose and make sure its for fruit and veg nutrients, or check out one of our sponsors like dogget simpson as they produce some great products that are designed for these plants and proven to work.

your looking for the NPK rating on the nutrients, for veg you want something higher in N and lower in PK, for flower you want the opposite, it is possible to use a good all round nutrient with an NPK of 4-4-4, but off the shelf products are to hot for these plants so really need watering down, so if a product says something like use 25ml per gallon of water then start off with something like 3 or 4ml per gallon and see how the plant responds, the full dose will fry these plants.

if you buy nutrients makes sure its for edible plants like fruit and veg and you will be ok, other nutrients for houseplants are not made for consumption so can be dangerous to use for edible plants due to the metals contained in the nutrients,

by the look of your plant id say your about half way through flowering, if you have been feeding nutrients then you may have some sort of nute lockout of defficiancy so let us know what you have been using and how often,

the other issue could be over watering, the roots need oxygen as much as they need water so its best to let the soil dry out before watering again, im not an outdoor grower so maybe someone else can offer some advice on outdoor plants, but let us know what you can then we can see what we can do to make the plant look much better, to me it looks like its lacking in N but that could be a nute lockout issue if you have been feeding nutrients

 

[TestingCBD]

Hi,

the plant looks like its lacking in something, have you been feeding it at all, the ground your growing in may contain nothing beneficial for these plants, regular compost out of a bag only supports these plants without nutrients for about 4 weeks depending on pot size so we then have to supliment with nutrients to give the plants what they need and that will then produce good yields.

if your going to use off the shelf products then you need to go easy on the dose and make sure its for fruit and veg nutrients, or check out one of our sponsors like dogget simpson as they produce some great products that are designed for these plants and proven to work.

your looking for the NPK rating on the nutrients, for veg you want something higher in N and lower in PK, for flower you want the opposite, it is possible to use a good all round nutrient with an NPK of 4-4-4, but off the shelf products are to hot for these plants so really need watering down, so if a product says something like use 25ml per gallon of water then start off with something like 3 or 4ml per gallon and see how the plant responds, the full dose will fry these plants.

if you buy nutrients makes sure its for edible plants like fruit and veg and you will be ok, other nutrients for houseplants are not made for consumption so can be dangerous to use for edible plants due to the metals contained in the nutrients,

by the look of your plant id say your about half way through flowering, if you have been feeding nutrients then you may have some sort of nute lockout of defficiancy so let us know what you have been using and how often,

the other issue could be over watering, the roots need oxygen as much as they need water so its best to let the soil dry out before watering again, im not an outdoor grower so maybe someone else can offer some advice on outdoor plants, but let us know what you can then we can see what we can do to make the plant look much better, to me it looks like its lacking in N but that could be a nute lockout issue if you have been feeding nutrients

Of the things you mentioned, overwatering sounded the most plausible from my point of view, but I've also been wondering about the nitrogen, which is really the only chem I know about when it comes to gardening.

I basically have been doing guano-tea from guano in my family's cabin attic. (Bat roost up there, un/fortunately)

I do wonder about some of the possible particles in the sweepings of the guano I got. Basically I try and sift away small dusty stuff from my collection bag I've been keeping since March.

I soak the residual/sifted guano (two garden hand-trowels full) in 2 gallons warm/hot water. I then add another 3 gallons of regular cold hose water. This is what you are seeing with the orange bucket in the photo. I let soak over night before use.

Typically, a 5 gallon bucket lasts all 4 plants 3 days, maybe 4 days. Each plant gets about 4-6 cups per day. Then it gets a hosing to "wash it down."

3 buckets ago, I dropped about 2 cups of molasses from the pantry into the mix. And on the last bucket I made today, I remembered I had "Pure Blend Pro grow" 3-2-4. I tossed two cap-fulls (2 tbsp) into the mix for this one. I dropped two tbsp of honey too, just for S*.

I tossed some new soil on top a few days ago too.

I'll try watering less, although rain is coming soon here.

One thing to note: The plants don't look all that different from mid summer. What has change is that there are at least buds coming around.

I have been lucky with the frosts up here. None yet.

 

[donpaul.p]

ok,

guano is ok if used with other products, i have not used teas so cant comment to much but the 2 methods i came across that just used gauno tea was 1 mix was guano and sheeps crap, the other was guano and lama crap but cant remember which one was for which stage of growth,

with the molasses you used you need 1 table spoon per gallon of water max and feed the plants that but i only use it for flowering but some do use it throughout the whole grow,

now over watering will make the plant lose its colour like that, the roots start to die and this then stops them taking in the nutrients the plants need, so if its over watered then that could be the only problem you have, the roots need oxygen and with my plants i grow indoors i let the pots go totally dry before watering again, when i pick my pots up they are top heavy because the compost i use has totally dried out, ive been using this method with the grow i got going now and im getting better results then any previous grows, so letting the roots get oxygen has really paid off for me,

so maybe your problem is just down to over watering, the problem is if its down to over watering then its going to take 2 weeks before the roots recover enough to take in the nutrients they need, so over watering will cause a sort of nute lockout until the roots have recovered,

the pure blend pro grow should be ok and is a flowering based nutrients so that will give the plant all it needs to produce a good harvest, just try and let the plant dry out more between waterings, i know outdoors this is difficult to control with the weather so it may not be totally possible to do this, but try and hold off on watering and let the soil dry out and see how it recovers from their, the guano is a great product to use in a tea but again its not something i have ever used so cant comment on what needs adding to it to give the plant what it needs, but with the pro grow you have used that should give the plant what i needs,

just go easy on the dose, my nutrients are running at 1 table spoon per gallon of water but my nutrients are designed for these plants so i can use at the stated dose, my off the shelf nutrients say 28ml per gallon but i cant go past 5ml per gallon before the plants show signs of nute burn, so off the shelf products can be to harsh for these plants, so go easy on the dose and let the roots recover and the plant should bounce back.

what makes me think the plants lacking in N is because the top of the plant looks greener than the bottom, this suggest the plant us using up the stored nutrients to support the top of the plant so it can stay healthy to get pollenated, so if its a lack of N then you usually see the lowest leaves turn yellow then it slowly works its way up the plant, it just trying to stay alive so uses whats stored in the leaves so its got chance to reproduce, but this can also be caused by over watering as the roots cant take in the nutrients they need so again the plant uses up what its got stored in the leaves to stupport the biggest buds and tops of the plant.

ill see if i can find an outdoor grower who can offer some help as ive never grown outdoors or used teas as its not an option i have, i would use teas if i had somewhere to let it brew and bubble away but i dont have this option so can only use nutrients for now,

 

[donpaul.p]

ive posed the link to this thread in my journal and asked members to come over and take a look, hopefully someone who grows outdoors and or uses tea's can come over and offer better advice than i can, indoor plants i can give the correct advice for but im not an outdoor grower so can only give as much info as i can without sending you off in the wrong direction and making things worse,

 

[TestingCBD]

Cool. Yes, I'd be happy enough just to be able to snag anything from these guys. This is my first grow, and I wasn't even in at the beginning. (Brother started them)

So you said I'm halfway through flowering? Could you say what the earliest indicators that I could harvest would be? I don't mean this to be impatient. I am just worried about the weather. Also, if the plant is killed by a frost, can it still be harvested, or is it kind of like lobster where you've gotta get them live?

 

[donpaul.p]

the weather is a huge problem outdoors if the plant is not mature enough for flower, but depending on the strain you could have anything from 3 weeks left up to 6ish weeks, have you any idea on the strain then i could provide a slightly better answer,

the old method for telling when the plant is ready for harvest is by going on how the pistils look(pistils are the white hairs you see poking out the buds), when these have all turned brown/orange and shrank back onto the bud then the plant would be ready for harvest,
your buts will fatten up a lot more between now and harvest.

the best method of checking and the main method everyone uses now is to check the trichomes (trichomes are the crystals you will see on the small leaves sticking out the buds and you will also see more and more of these on the buds as it gets further into flower)
so these trichomes you need to check using a good jewelers loop or scope, or you can try a magnifying glass, then have a good look at the bud leaves and the buds and your looking at the crystals on the leaves and bud, under a scope they look like mushrooms.

when we check these we are looking at the colour, in early flower these are clear and look like ice, when the plant gets closer to harvest they start to turn cloudy, the plant is actually ready for harvest and at its ripest when these trichomes are cloudy, they look like milky water when cloudy, this is when thc is at its peak, so anything around 100% cloudy is when the plant is actually ready.

you can also let the plant stay in flower past cloudy and this gives you a more couch lock affect, after cloudy the trichomes wilt and turn amber, this is when the thc is turning into cbn and this gives us the stronger couch lock affect, i like to harvest when my plants are around 80%cloudy and 20%ish amber,

with the weather it depends how long you got till you start getting the frosts, when the weather gets colder the plant will start to turn purple and the buds will turn purple, how ever a frost will kill the plant so if thats likely to be a problem then you only really have 1 option, you could get some clear plastic and build a frame and place this over the plant during the cold nights and this should be enough to keep the frost off while they get ready for harvest, the cooler temps will turn the plant purple and produce purple buds but it will still make it to harvest as long as the plant remains frost free, so some sort of shelter would really help if your likely to have frosts,

if thats not possible then you have no option but to harvest early and when a frost happens, you might not get any decent bud but it will be better than none at all,

 

[Levernz]

As don says, go easy on the ferts outside. The soil itself has minerals that feed your plants. And you also have sativa's plants which can really play with the climate, those plants can flowers for 15 weeks + outdoors. Next year you should plant them earlier in the season to get a shot at a full growth. Leave them until the first frost, if you are not happy with the buds progress i would personally use them for making ice hash, but thats my opinion

 

[TestingCBD]

As don says, go easy on the ferts outside. The soil itself has minerals that feed your plants. And you also have sativa's plants which can really play with the climate, those plants can flowers for 15 weeks + outdoors. Next year you should plant them earlier in the season to get a shot at a full growth. Leave them until the first frost, if you are not happy with the buds progress i would personally use them for making ice hash, but thats my opinion

Thanks.

Is it bad that they don't really smell like weed (yet)?

I was about to use three cap fulls of the nutes on tomorrows batch, but maybe I'll hold on that and think about another day without water.

I don't care, per se, about the size of the buds. I just would like for the buds I do get to have all the right stuff in them. So how should I know if I am happy until the plant is cut down?

Isn't hash something that people use more so for its crystal/thc aspects? I'm not interested in that. More thc is not better, nor is it worse really. I just want to conserve whatever CBD may be in it. I realize sativas may be the wrong plant anyway for that, but beggars aren't choosers.

I'll just keep the buds and hope for the best I think, though I was thinking of cannabutter.

So far, still no frost, but the frequency of sub-40 degree nights is starting to increase. We just had our full moon yesterday, and our days are 10hr:41min long today.

 

[TestingCBD]

Just cut a bud off the small one and smoked it straight away. Pretty good stuff. I couldn't notice the smell of it till I took it off and started snipping leaves, but for a little bud I took that was pretty smelly.

 

[donpaul.p]

some plants stink when their growing and some dont, indica plants tend to smell more than sativas plus outdoors you dont have a room that has the smell constantly building up so you wont really notice the smell much outdoors.

now harvesting early means the trichomes are not ripe so thc will be at its lowest, not sure on the cbd levels as i know this is hard to get and some strains are being produced that contain very low thc and higher levels of cbd for medical use and people who dont smoke cannabis on a regular basis,

so their are some high cbd strains and cbd crew produce some high cbd strains which some of our sponsors sell their seeds.

when you smoke any mj bud its going to stink, their is no way around it unless you vap, smoking bud will create a smell and it cant be smelled for a long distance, so if you got nosey neighbours or dont want people to know you smoke then smoke outdoors or somewhere people are not going to notice the smell to much.

with the nutrients id say give them the nutrients but at a low dose, mix a 3rd of the stated dose to a gallon of water then water the plants, stop feeding nutrients 2 weeks before harvest so the buds dont have nutrients in them when you smoke it which can cause a more harsh taste, or if your using organic nutes then a flush is not needed,

just make sure the soil is drying out between watering as their is only 2 known methods that increase bud size and thats oxygen at the roots and or co2 at the leaves, everything else is just a guess with no real proof proven,

 

[jdmjunior1991]

hi i am a new user and new grower i am doing small scale stuff just so i dont have to pay for it anymore its a expensive habit. i have 3 plants i am growing on is strawberry cough the other is afghani wich is the one i will be talking about and romulan i have been feeding them with this

i dont know much about it other then its all natural rather then chemicals i dont want my weed to taste nasty i just started to bud my afghani plant she is about 3 to 3 1/2 feet tall her light shcedule is 16 on 8 off i have been making sure my plants keep moist i use a spray bottle to spray down leafs i feed them all once a week and water once daily i am also using this soil

on all plants i couldnt find much info online about it so i found what i could on it here it is ProEarth #2 INGREDIENTS: SASKATCHEWAN SPHAGNUM PEAT (AIR DRIED GROWER GRADE), HORTICULTURAL AND SOIL MIX GRADE PERLITE, VERMICULITE (MEDIUM), PUMICE, AGED ALDER SAWDUST (NITRIFIED), UNKILNED DIATOMACEOUS EARTH (NATURAL INSECT CONTROL), DOLOMITE LIME FLOUR (-40 MESH), LIMESTONE FLOUR (-100 MESH), CALCIUM NITRATE, FERROUS SULFATE, POTASSIUM SULFATE, AMMONIUM PHOSPHATE, TEMPERATURE RELEASE FERTILIZER, ADDED TRACE ELEMENTS, M-ROOTS (MYCHORRIZAE), ESSENTIAL W.A. GROWTH STIMULANT AND WETTING AGENT. i am using florecent lights i was told these would be sufficent i have one 4 inch t5 it has two bulbs and puts off about 4000 lumineces i have the afghani plant and my romulan plant under that one light i also have one 2 inch t5 that puts off 2500 lumineces it also has two bulbs i use it for my single strawberry cough i have them in a white closet with a white board in front of them to reflect light and a fan to give them exercise.My question here is im not sure if i should be doing anything differently like using chemicals during budding stage or anything at all or if theres things i should be doing diffferent im just a first time grower any advice would really be appriciated thanks in advance have a great day

 

[donpaul.p]

Hi mate,

are you just feeding the fish fert and nothing else, i think that would be ok for veg but not for flower, id use that right up till the plants start to flower then you need something thats higher in P and lower in N, so what you got now is high in N and low in P and K so thats ideal for veg, but for flower the plants need different nutrients to help with bud development, so something like NPK 2-5-3 or what ever you can find

just go easy on the doses to start with as off the shelf products can be a bit harsh so start at 1/4 stated dose or even 1/5th of the stated dose.
so your ok for the veg stage but you need something for the flower stage, im using a product that doggest simpson sells which is one ofhte sponsors here who you can find at the bottom of the screen, he sells 3 bags of nutrients, you use bag 1 for seedlings, bag 2 for veg and bag 3 for flower, no mixing at all, just 1 table spoon of bag2 mixed in with 1 gallon of water then water the plants, for flower you use 1 table spoon of bag 3 per gallon of water, im getting amazing results so id give that a try if you was going to buy nutrients, its a great price for the amount you get and certainly works well,

now lets look at the lights
id think the lights your using are not going to be anywhere near enough, they are just about ok for seedling stage and for early veg, you will want around 200actual watts with the lights per plant or at the least around 150watts per plant,

now ive not used t5s but i think their a middle spectrum bulb which the kelvin either 4000 or 5000, but i may be wrong as ive never used them

how ever i have used the small cfls, you know the household energy saving bulbs, well my first grow was with these,

now these come in 2 colours or kelvins, the white light is the 6400kelvin and the orange or red light is the 2700kbulbs

now the 6400kelvin are called white light, i had to get mine off the net as they are hard to find in stores, but you can get these in 23 and 30watts which is the best lumin to watt ratio, 23watt is the best

so lets talk about kelvins, the plants need different spectrums during different stages of growth, now with hid lights you can buy metal halide for veg and hps for flower, the metal halide is the white or blue light the plants need and the hps is the orange or red light that the plants need for flower,
so mh is for veg and hps is for flower, how ever they do a dual spectrum hps bulb which im currently using at the minute and getting great results,
now if you had the money id try and buy a hps light, for 2 to 4 plants id say a 400watt is all you need and its all ive used so far, i use a 400 watt digital ballast with dual spec bulb, it cost me £65 with the bulb, i get around 65,000 lumins from it,

so lets get back to cfls, i cant really help with the t5's so hoepfully someone can jump in and correct me and offer some advice on these, but im pretty sure the spectrum of these is 4000 or 5000 if i remember right, but i could be wrong on this, if they are then their ok for all stages of growth, not ideal but will work but you will need more of them.

i was growing 4 plants under cfls and needed to use over 400 actual watts with 23 and 30watt bulbs,

so i was using a load of 23watt and 30watt 6400kelvin bulbs for veb
and 23 and 30watt of 2700 kelvin for flower, now its best to have a mix of the 2 throughout the whole grow,
so for veg i had a 2 to 1 ratio, so every 2x 6400k bulbs id have 1x 2700k cfl, then for flower id swap it around so i had more of 2700k and less of 6400k bulbs,

but you will need to add more bulbs,
the good thing is for flower you need the 2700kelvin bulbs, these are the commen household cfl you can get anywhere, you can buy them from super markets of even get them free from time to time out the paper or from your energy supplier,
then give off a sort of orange light where as the 6400kelvin are a white looking light and often called a work light.

so the 2700k bulbs you can get from most super markest for next to nothing, their compact flourescents, usually spiral or like 3 u shaped glass tubes on them, the 23 watt ones will be the best to get, so a few of them will be ok for flower but id say you would want between 6 and 8 per plant of the 23 watt cfls for flower,

the 6400k cfls i had to get from the net as i could not find these in shops,

the more lights you got the quicker the plant will grow and the less it will stretch, with cfls you need to keep them close to the plant as light penetration is very poor after more than 2 to 4 inches, you can check this by holding your hand against the bulb then slowly lower it away and after about 2 to 4 inches you will see the light level drastically drop off, they can light up a whole room but not much use for growing after about 4 inches from the plants,