Heat problems with LED grow lighting - All brands discussion

[poly]

These are some good questions Fuzzy Duck! And i think you are right, we aren't getting the bang for the bucks.
But that is mainly because the technology is not new, but the way it is used is new.

I really have a deja vu when it comes to LED Grow Lights. I reminds me of Computers ten or twenty years ago.
Yeah, the pc did what it was supposed to, but i generated a hell of heat, was loud as a jet and to top that it was frickin expensive.

And the People who spent all those bucks lets say 10 or 20 years ago are the people who invested so these little machines could be as good as they are now.

We are early adopters, and early adopters always pay the price. And when i say that i dont think that all those LED Panels are really that expensive, the manufacters are getting also their money ..

What we should not forget is that the Market is pretty small so until that changes or somebody who has no interest in making money comes along we just have to wait.

LED Panels have so many parts to improve, its not alone cooling which could be improved (pull, not push airflow, watercooling on large panels, using the chassis as a big passiv heatsink, and so on...).

The only thing i can imagine is some kind of "community edition", where a LED manufactor works together with people who have the knowledge to improve things in a good way. But that will not necessarily make the panel cheaper

 

[FearThis]

I noticed with my budmaster 675xg's that the plants don't mind the higher temps as much with a 600w hps my plants really started to suffer at around 31 degrees with my budmasters 33 degrees isn't a problem. I think its got more to do with how direct the heat is 33 degrees with the budmasters is ambient 31 with the 600 is direct. I also don't think that the leds heat the leaf up as much. If your going from hps heat shouldn't be a problem but to be sold as low heat is just a joke 10x hotter than my t5 or cfl which is actually low heat.

 

[vspin]

Other than additional cost, why are 5w LEDs not designed with ducting, like air cooled HIDs? If it could work, it would definitely be a selling point over the other 5w LEDs.

 

[Techhead]

Well guys, seems you are looking for something for nothing. Power is power, and a watt is a watt. First of all let me tell you what a watt is. It is a unit of HEAT. Nothing is free, and if a LED panel draws 1A from the wall at 120V it is putting 120 WATTS into the room even if it is cool to the touch. That heat went some place. I'd say, to get rid of the heat, find which vents are for out flow, and find a way to vent them out with some duct work. Fans or not, you can not get free light without power, and power is heat no matter what kind of work the power is doing. Bottom line here, venting is needed.

 

[poly]

or make the LEDs more efficient so that they use less power with the same PAR.

 

[PlatinumLED]

Thought you guys would get a kick out of this..

This was sent to us by one of our customers.. who happens to be a very dear older gentleman that loves his projects. Awesome guy.

This is an unknown unit from another manufacturer that he rigged up his own custom cooling system for by reversing one of the 4" fans on the top of the case. The unit is totally sealed as you can see a la 3M duct tape.


Where there's a will, there's a way!

 

[Perfect Sun LED]

When I ran the equal amount of watts with LED my room didn't drop in temp either over HID. Personally, I found double ended HPS bulbs to be the best. I keep my room temps optimal with running ac. I keep it on 24-7 at 75 degrees. However, most of the time it is in fan mode because it already cooled the room down, so it doesn't cost much electricity.

I use a 800w window AC for a 10x10x9 room.

 

[PlatinumLED]

or make the LEDs more efficient so that they use less power with the same PAR.

This is the key to the entire situation at hand. Case in point:

Our P450 using 274w with 3w diodes will outperform a 600w HPS. Documented.

The key with LEDs isn't how to cool them.. it's to use better quality lights to do more with less.

 

[BudTester420]

When I ran the equal amount of watts with LED my room didn't drop in temp either over HID. Personally, I found double ended HPS bulbs to be the best. I keep my room temps optimal with running ac. I keep it on 24-7 at 75 degrees. However, most of the time it is in fan mode because it already cooled the room down, so it doesn't cost much electricity.

I use a 800w window AC for a 10x10x9 room.

You will never run a cooler room with LED's if you use the same watts as your hps was, no matter what it is putting out 600 watts it's still going to get just as hot. Icemud was just talking about this in his journal. The way you get a cooler room is if you can beat your hps with less watts.

 

[heatmiser]

Well guys, seems you are looking for something for nothing. Power is power, and a watt is a watt. First of all let me tell you what a watt is. It is a unit of HEAT. Nothing is free, and if a LED panel draws 1A from the wall at 120V it is putting 120 WATTS into the room even if it is cool to the touch. That heat went some place. I'd say, to get rid of the heat, find which vents are for out flow, and find a way to vent them out with some duct work. Fans or not, you can not get free light without power, and power is heat no matter what kind of work the power is doing. Bottom line here, venting is needed.

A particular amount of energy (joule) converted from one form to another over a particular period of time (a second) is expressed by the term watt,
it is not associated with heat. Its simple physics....

 

[Icemud]

A particular amount of energy (joule) converted from one form to another over a particular period of time (a second) is expressed by the term watt,
it is not associated with heat. Its simple physics....

Is heat not generated when energy is converted? 1W = 3.412142 BTU/hr so by this any 400w device would create the same BTU/hr no matter if its a 400w toaster, LED light, 10x 40w incandescent bulbs. now this would be a combined sum of Heat released in forms of convective, conductive and radiant heat right?

I may be wrong as I am not a degreed thermodynamics engineer, but from I have read, equal wattage equal heat distribution in a sealed room.

 

[vspin]

A particular amount of energy (joule) converted from one form to another over a particular period of time (a second) is expressed by the term watt,
it is not associated with heat. Its simple physics....

"The standard unit for the rate of heat transferred is the watt (W), defined as joules per second." - wikipedia

 

[heatmiser]

I love wikipedia users.

Yes, heat, and any other form of stored energy.
If your read further, and didn't simply attempt to make me look stupid, which is not cool, you would have also read the formula for a watt right their on your esteemed wikipedia page - which describes a watt as a measure of energy conversion, any energy, measured in joules per second.

Thats it, theres nothing more to note, other than this is a a very significant consideration when measuring a lights performance - how much is converted to heat, how much to light. So, the point is that watts are not heat, they are just not. End of story.



IMOE - I have used a Mars II alone in a sealed tent, and two Area 51's with the same power consumption alone in the same tent, and the Mars brought the temps up 10 degrees over the same setup, same plants, in the same tent.

 

[heatmiser]

 

[vspin]

I love wikipedia users.

Yes, heat, and any other form of stored energy.
If your read further, and didn't simply attempt to make me look stupid, which is not cool, you would have also read the formula for a watt right their on your esteemed wikipedia page - which describes a watt as a measure of energy conversion, any energy, measured in joules per second.

Thats it, theres nothing more to note, other than this is a a very significant consideration when measuring a lights performance - how much is converted to heat, how much to light. So, the point is that watts are not heat, they are just not. End of story.

I do not find Wikipedia as an entirely credible source of information, nor do find a user on 420 Magazine any more credible (probably less), but that doesn't mean Wikipedia (and yourself maybe) is not at times a useful source of information.

If you think I was trying to make you "look stupid," you're are being too sensitive. I've always heard that heat WAS associated with watts which is why I replied to you hoping you'd address the information I provided because it seemed based on the information that a watt was indeed associated with heat.

For clarity, you said watts are "not associated with heat."

"The Watt, which is the SI unit of power, can be defined as 1 J/s of heat flow." - Engineering ToolBox


Based on this statement and others I've read, IMO, watts are NOT heat, but ARE "associated with heat." Again, this is not to make you (or I) look stupid, but to hopefully get to the truth.

 

[heatmiser]

The definition of watts is not associated with heat. It can be illustrated through example by the use of the energy form - heat. Please stop this nonsense.

Yes I am too sensitive and I apologize for it. However it is very clear what the intention was - to show me with a simple quote that what the poster was saying was the case.
You edited down wikipedia's entry on the subject to reveal just one very small aspect of the truth, and obfuscated things by doing so. A complete undiluted quote would have entirely supported what I said, that it is a measure of energy conversion and nothing more. If your looking for the truth, which is the point here, you should not have edited the wikipedia entry down to cull out the actual truth, you should have added the energy conversion formula, which is what it says in less than three lines. (I just read it.) I refuse to continue this discussion.

This thread has been hijacked by a very small hurdle in physics that is very easily jumped. Please move on.

 

[vspin]

You're becoming way too sensitive and starting to draw inaccurate conclusions. I'm not trying to get you all worked up. I will not pursue further discussions with you.

I maintain that watts are related to heat (i.e., rate of heat flow).

 

[Techhead]

Talk about getting off track, I didn't want an argument about what creates a watt. I have steadied Joules, and all that stuff. I also understand inductance, and capacitance, phasing and impedance. All this talk about the basics of electricity is pointless. To the point. whenever voltage is dropped across any kind of impedance it will leave behind energy in the form of heat. What you are buying with an LED is more output of light per watt, nothing more. That watt is the same heat if it went through a resistor, a transistor, a Zener diode, a light bulb, or an LED. Let's not argue about what a watt is, sorry I made it simple. Now get back to how to get rid of the heat.

 

[Techhead]

May I offer a possible solution for some of you. Simply make a heat exchanger. This should not be too hard to get rid of a few degrees. Vent out the warm air into some duct work, that cheap drier vent aluminum pipe should work well as aluminum exchanges heat best. Run it around a little, maybe make some kind of header or something, or just run it back and forth. Point is, let it spend enough time outside of the grow space until it has cooled to the ambiant temp. then put it back in the grow space. Now you have cooled it and still kept your CO2, and smell in the box.
Have fun thinking of how to do this, and happy thoughts.

 

[heatmiser]

OMG Icemud I am sorry about this mess. I dig your work

techhead - no problem man I was just trying to bring clarity, overdid it


I have seen blogging like this before. A blogger uses the strategy of ad hominem attacks (your too sensitive), and the age old strategy of the chase my semantics game (I maintain that its related to, and its associated with).

A watt is a conversion rate

water going through a hydro damn is energy measured at the turbine's generator as watts
wind is the same

wheres the heat?

its best that if your strategy is to cut and paste your way through an argument, you may wish to choose another likeminded person who also doesn't mind being called out as not knowing what he is talking about


so, since its just a conversion rate, and not heat, we can look at it differently and talk about the performance of a piece of gear that converts electricity to heat and light, in what ratio - which is its efficiency/performance characteristics if light is the goal as it is here

thats a whole different discussion when the building blocks of it are terms like watts - so lets understand the terms we use, which will bring us closer to the answers we are looking for