How to upgrade setup to improve bud density & quality?

[Cwmoore577]

So I'm currently finishing up my 3rd successful grow (reaching seed to harvest).

My first attempt I bought a blurple LED from amazon, built a DIY tent with pvc and black/white poly and used bag seed in soil and used General Organics BioSeries for nutrients. I made it to the end and got larfy, poor quality buds understandably so.

My 2nd grow I ordered seeds from Seedsman, replaced the blurple LED with a 150 watt HPS, added my exhaust/intake fans with carbon filter and an oscillating fan. I also switched to a coco based medium (Royal Gold Tupur mix) while still using the General Organics BioSeries nutrients. The buds, though a bit better, were still larfy, fluffy with no density to it. Not enough light. They also foxtailed likely due to the heat from the HPS.



For my 3rd and current grow, I researched in depth about what I needed to improve the quality. I needed more light and a better light spectrum so I ditched the HPS for a Series 2+ Red Spec LED (250 watt) from budgetLED, ditched the DIY tent for an actual 2 x 4 grow tent and switched to General Hydroponics FloraSeries nutrient line. I also run an automated drip system from a reservoir outside of the tent.
Here's a photo of the current setup:

My temps run around 77 to 81F and my humidity runs 55-60% in veg and 45-50% in flower.

I had two plants in this setup, one in jars curing (Zkittlez Auto from Seedsman), one still being flushed in the tent (GelatOG Auto from Seedsman). Both are mostly indica. The 1st plant that I already chopped looks improved from my 2nd grow but still has no density and is not very visually appealing. I have not smoked any of it yet either. I'm not sure if the 2nd plant will be any better.

My question is what is the most important thing that I could upgrade in order to improve the density and quality of my harvests. I know that density is characteristic of indica strains as well as light/environment control being very important factors.

Is the 250 watt led enough to produce dense buds in an 8 sq. ft. space? Should I add supplemental light or invest in a more blue spectrum LED for vegging my plants? Should I get better fans?

I also plan to ditch the Royal Gold Tupur mix for a 100% coco/perlite mix.

Any suggestions very much appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[Rexer]

I'm going to hop along for any answers you get, it's a good question.

You've done wonders to improve your setup, I'm going to take a guess at an answer; I'm a first time grower so not sure on the value of my answer lol but let's get the ball rolling!

I'd say You need to work on controlling the stretch, either by supplementing or bringing lights in a bit closer.

 

[Stormblessed]

I’m still new to all this but only thing I can think of is maybe waiting a little longer to harvest?and I’m sure more light can’t hurt

 

[CanadianJim]

How are you determining when to harvest? By the trichomes , or some other method?

 

[Apoc]

Ideally 8sq ft would need 50w per SQ foot so 400w.

Honestly I'd go soil until I perfected my craft. Running auto Zkittlez from Seedsman in 7 gal smart pot with 200w of Mars Hydro I got 7oz of dense flower. So much THC the buds crunch when you squeeze.

I'd run another budget led 250 and lower the light on each to prolong the lifespan.

I'd get a light (lux) meter and run
5-7k lux seedling
45-55k lux veg
45-65k lux flower
No higher than 65k and if that high add Cal/mag if needed.

Dump the expensive nutes and run Mega Crop until you figure out what you are doing. You may want to stick to Mega Crop, superior harvests, inexpensive and simplicity are it's strong points.

Learn to Top or LST (or both)

Get a USB microscope and harvest when trichomes are milky. Harvesting early will get larfy light buds just like not enough light.

Last, if you want, toward the end use something like Flower Fuel to bulk up. I use regular strength Mega Crop and 1/2 strength Flower Fuel and had no problems.

Good luck and have patience it's a learning curve.

 

[BubbleBucketz]

Enviroment is the key....probably more important then lighting. While genetics play a major role....you need the lights and everything else to be near perfect. You can have the best lights in the world but with bad growing conditions....it won't be what you expect. It also comes down to expectations as well.

 

[CanadianJim]

A lumens per watt rating would be far more useful when it comes to choosing a light based on square footage of the grow space. The draw from the wall (for LEDs) is only useful for figuring out what your power bill will be.
Two LED lights with the same draw from the wall can have completely different light output levels due to factors like what type of cooling system is used (active or passive) and the efficiency/quality of the chips used.
Watts per square foot applies to HID lights which have a pretty uniform efficiency converting watts to light.
Hope that helps.

 

[Cwmoore577]

I'm going to hop along for any answers you get, it's a good question.

You've done wonders to improve your setup, I'm going to take a guess at an answer; I'm a first time grower so not sure on the value of my answer lol but let's get the ball rolling!

I'd say You need to work on controlling the stretch, either by supplementing or bringing lights in a bit closer.

By controlling the stretch you mean keeping them more compact? I've had issues keeping 12"+ space between the light and the colas so I don't think it's an issue of the light being too far.

I’m still new to all this but only thing I can think of is maybe waiting a little longer to harvest?and I’m sure more light can’t hurt

How are you determining when to harvest? By the trichomes , or some other method?

I have a microscope and I wait until I see at least roughly 20% amber or more. This plants is nearly 14 weeks (93 days exactly) from sprout and I've check calyxes from all over and spotted maybe 3-4 ambers. Breeder says 80 days seed to harvest for this strain though I know that's dependent on many variables.

Ideally 8sq ft would need 50w per SQ foot so 400w.

Honestly I'd go soil until I perfected my craft. Running auto Zkittlez from Seedsman in 7 gal smart pot with 200w of Mars Hydro I got 7oz of dense flower. So much THC the buds crunch when you squeeze.

I'd run another budget led 250 and lower the light on each to prolong the lifespan.

I'd get a light (lux) meter and run
5-7k lux seedling
45-55k lux veg
45-65k lux flower
No higher than 65k and if that high add Cal/mag if needed.

Dump the expensive nutes and run Mega Crop until you figure out what you are doing. You may want to stick to Mega Crop, superior harvests, inexpensive and simplicity are it's strong points.

Learn to Top or LST (or both)

Get a USB microscope and harvest when trichomes are milky. Harvesting early will get larfy light buds just like not enough light.

Last, if you want, toward the end use something like Flower Fuel to bulk up. I use regular strength Mega Crop and 1/2 strength Flower Fuel and had no problems.

Good luck and have patience it's a learning curve.

I've gotten pretty familiar with using coco and this plant hasn't shown and deficiencies, etc. I considered going back to soil though.
I may add another LED as you suggested, I was considering getting the HLG 100. How much are the lux meters?

When using the FloraSeries, I've tried different combinations and I've started using H3ad's coco formula, which is just the Lucas formula but modified for coco. It's pretty simple all the way through and though I needed to tweak it a bit, the plant seems to love it. I have looked into megacrop though.

I LST all of my plants. I don't top them because I've been running autos but my next grow will be photos and I will.
I have a microscope and I harvest around the 60% cloudy 40% amber.

 

[Cwmoore577]

Enviroment is the key....probably more important then lighting. While genetics play a major role....you need the lights and everything else to be near perfect. You can have the best lights in the world but with bad growing conditions....it won't be what you expect. It also comes down to expectations as well.

Yes I have invested in the fans to try to keep a good environment. My temps and humidity should be good, there should be sufficient airflow with the intake at the bottom, exhaust at the top and the oscillating fan in the middle. Not sure what else I could improve besides perhaps CO2 supplementation but I don't think I have enough light for it to be needed. Maybe if I add another?

I'm not wanting perfection, only increased density and it to not turn out larfy.

 

[multiVortex]

I'd run another budget led 250 and lower the light on each to prolong the lifespan.

Negative, ghost rider. That single 250w Budget LED is just right for a 4x2. Better if it had the XL heatsink, but still plenty. I use a single 250w in my 3x3, and two of the 250's in one of my 4x4's.

I may add another LED as you suggested, I was considering getting the HLG 100. How much are the lux meters?

DO NOT do that. You don't need it. That 250w from Budget LED is just fine in your 4x2. I run a single one in my 3x3, and it's just fine. These aren't cheap-ass fake blurple lights, they're the real deal.

Here are a few things to consider:

- Genetics: Some strains are just more fluffy than others. Find reputable breeders, find journals growing whatever strain, etc.

- Temps: Keep them under 80F in flower, preferably closer to 75F than 80F.

- Nutrients: Gotta have the right ones

- Flushing: It's pure bullshit. At least as far as being used as a "finishing move." Think about this. The last week or so of the plants life before you chop it is spent fattening up the buds. AKA: Bud swell. If you chop early, or you aren't feeding your plants, that just fucks it all up, now doesn't it? Yes, yes it does.

What a "flush" really is, is to reset the growing medium from accumulated salts and such. They are a useful tool, but that's it. You run 3x the volume of the container through with plain pH'd water, then feed right behind it as normal.

Flushing at the end is nothing more than starving your plants when they need it most.

 

[Stunned]

I use a single 250w in my 3x3, and two of the 250's in one of my 4x4's.

Absolutely this.
I also ran a similar light at 260 watts in a 3X3 and grew 3 monster GSC grown in coco.

 

[Cwmoore577]

Negative, ghost rider. That single 250w Budget LED is just right for a 4x2. Better if it had the XL heatsink, but still plenty. I use a single 250w in my 3x3, and two of the 250's in one of my 4x4's.





DO NOT do that. You don't need it. That 250w from Budget LED is just fine in your 4x2. I run a single one in my 3x3, and it's just fine. These aren't cheap-ass fake blurple lights, they're the real deal.

Here are a few things to consider:

- Genetics: Some strains are just more fluffy than others. Find reputable breeders, find journals growing whatever strain, etc.

- Temps: Keep them under 80F in flower, preferably closer to 75F than 80F.

- Nutrients: Gotta have the right ones

- Flushing: It's pure bullshit. At least as far as being used as a "finishing move." Think about this. The last week or so of the plants life before you chop it is spent fattening up the buds. AKA: Bud swell. If you chop early, or you aren't feeding your plants, that just fucks it all up, now doesn't it? Yes, yes it does.

What a "flush" really is, is to reset the growing medium from accumulated salts and such. They are a useful tool, but that's it. You run 3x the volume of the container through with plain pH'd water, then feed right behind it as normal.

Flushing at the end is nothing more than starving your plants when they need it most.

Yes, budgetLED is a great company. Both strains are majority indica hybrids with good reviews but I might try to order something from a different breeder, just don't know which one. I'd go mephisto but theyre completely out of stock. Also with covid a lot of packages are extremely delayed or just not arriving.

I've got to figure out how to get the temps down further, even with my fans full blast its 78 to 80.
I think I'm getting a handle on the nutrients part, especially when using the cannastats calculator to dial in my ratios.

Seems to be a lot of differing opinions on flushing, some swear its worth it and some swear its messes with bud swell. I guess I'll just have to do a side by side and see how it works for me. Arguments for and against both seem to have valid points.

 

[Stunned]

Flushing your plants in the last couple of weeks is a mistake.
Have you thought of trying Autos?
I'm going to raise Dark Devils next grow
I can't wait lol

 

[multiVortex]

Seems to be a lot of differing opinions on flushing, some swear its worth it and some swear its messes with bud swell.

You can believe the bros, or scientific fact. I’ll stick with science

I might try to order something from a different breeder, just don't know which one. I'd go mephisto but theyre completely out of stock. Also with covid a lot of packages are extremely delayed or just not arriving.

Are you wanting to stick with autos?

Dutch Passion and Fast Buds have a great selection. I have 3 Dutch and 1 FastBuds running right now.

Mephisto seems to be out of stock everywhere. Hope they’re alright.

Barney’s and Bomb do nice autos as well.


There may be room for improvement in your drying and curing setup as well.


As for temps, with 500w of Budget LED’s running, my temps run about 5F over ambient room temp, if that. The tents exhaust into the room, up top. I have a floor fan blowing cool air towards the tents down low, and an exhaust for the room that sucks from the ceiling above the tents and out of the room.

 

[Cwmoore577]

Flushing your plants in the last couple of weeks is a mistake.
Have you thought of trying Autos?
I'm going to raise Dark Devils next grow
I can't wait lol

These are both autos.

You can believe the bros, or scientific fact. I’ll stick with science







Are you wanting to stick with autos?

Dutch Passion and Fast Buds have a great selection. I have 3 Dutch and 1 FastBuds running right now.

Mephisto seems to be out of stock everywhere. Hope they’re alright.

Barney’s and Bomb do nice autos as well.


There may be room for improvement in your drying and curing setup as well.


As for temps, with 500w of Budget LED’s running, my temps run about 5F over ambient room temp, if that. The tents exhaust into the room, up top. I have a floor fan blowing cool air towards the tents down low, and an exhaust for the room that sucks from the ceiling above the tents and out of the room.

Yea I was considering going back to photos just for the fact that 12/12 would save electricity but I'm definitely not opposed to another run of autos. They get better and better.

I hope mephisto is alright as well. Their website just says they're restocking. Seedsman reportedly saw a major increase in orders so maybe they were just bought out?

I did look at FastBuds and Dutch Passion, have you done a full run from them?

Ones that I've heard good things from are DinaFem, Barney's, DNA Genetics and Nirvana.


About curing and drying, possibly. Right now I have a plastic storage bin that I've turned into a drying box. It has wire hangers running through the top and two computer fans with a speed controller, one is intake, one is exhaust. I have two hygrometers on each side of it as well. I trim them, dry them for 3-5 days in the box and then jar/burp them until at 60% steady.

 

[multiVortex]

Seedsman reportedly saw a major increase in orders so maybe they were just bought out?

I did look at FastBuds and Dutch Passion, have you done a full run from them?

It wasn’t just seedsman. I’ve been looking for Mephisto for the better part of a year.

As for Dutch and Fast, yessir. Several runs with both. No complaints at all.

Give Night Queen from Dutch Passion, and Blue Dream’mattic (or Blackberry) from FastBuds a shot. Neither disappoint.

 

[Cwmoore577]

It wasn’t just seedsman. I’ve been looking for Mephisto for the better part of a year.

As for Dutch and Fast, yessir. Several runs with both. No complaints at all.

Give Night Queen from Dutch Passion, and Blue Dream’mattic (or Blackberry) from FastBuds a shot. Neither disappoint.

Will check it out.

Thanks for the help brother!