Issue that’s getting worse

[Johnny5thesim]

Hi,

I’ve tried once already. But I’m hoping someone has seen this before. I’ve spent hours reasearching and only found one instance of this same issue. And no answer was given.

I had one plant start showing this discolouration a few weeks back. Everything else looked great. But now, I have a second plant showing it as well. Growth is not stunted and it’s flowering quickly. I’m on week 5 Flower.

I’ve been all through everything. Ph is good. Nutrient levels should all be good. I’ve extensively check for pests.

I think this is either a calcium deficiency, or possibly a lockout of calcium. I do tend to see some pretty high runoff ppm.

The problem occurs in middle aged leaves. Old ones, and new ones are coloured perfectly.

Has anyone seen and specifically dealt with this?

 

[Johnny5thesim]

I should also mention, it’s now much more prominent. I’ll update some new pics to shows it progression as soon as possible!

 

[Emilya Green]

I agree that it could be both of your guesses... I am thinking spider mites or possibly calcium. We need a much better closeup of the back of the leaf, but the pinprick holes that I think I am seeing have me worried. If they are indeed holes, then I would look a lot closer for the almost microscopic pests.
deficiencies that would just hit the middle leaves would be rare indeed and calcium being non mobile in the plant would make its symptoms show up in the upper growth... so I am leaning toward the bugs.

 

[Johnny5thesim]

I will update a much better picture soon.

If it was pests, it would have to be smaller then a 120x scope can see. I’ve checked over and over. No webbing. No presence of any life at all. And it was just on one plant, for almost 2 weeks before it showed up on one that’s not even touching it. 2 others are touching the affected plant and they are perfect!

I’m heading home now to get pics!

 

[Emilya Green]

so what would explain a deficiency on just 2 plants in the room and in odd places on the plant? Plants don't have to be touching for critters to spread. we need a better closeup of that leaf so we can see if the damage looks artificial or something the plant could do to itself.

 

[Nickystickybuds]

I will update a much better picture soon.

If it was pests, it would have to be smaller then a 120x scope can see. I’ve checked over and over. No webbing. No presence of any life at all. And it was just on one plant, for almost 2 weeks before it showed up on one that’s not even touching it. 2 others are touching the affected plant and they are perfect!

I’m heading home now to get pics!

Maybe its the plant sucking up all the nutrients it can to put its energy into making buds?

 

[Emilya Green]

Maybe its the plant sucking up all the nutrients it can to put its energy into making buds?

The plant is only capable of sucking up certain nutrients out of the leaves, and we call these the mobile elements. Typically these will affect the lowest oldest leaves and then the effects will move up the trunk as the problem progresses. Semi mobile elements, like magnesium can show problems all over the plant, but generally will start with the lower growth. Non mobile elements like calcium can not be taken from older leaves. If it isnt available to the plant when it needs it, the symptoms show up in the new growth, where it was needed at the time and could not be found.
Somehow we have to put all of these clues together to figure out what the plant needs, or in this case when the symptoms do not follow the normal plant reactions to deficiencies, what is attacking the plant. Is it mold, fungus or pest. More pictures should help us determine what we are seeing.

 

[Johnny5thesim]

so what would explain a deficiency on just 2 plants in the room and in odd places on the plant? Plants don't have to be touching for critters to spread. we need a better closeup of that leaf so we can see if the damage looks artificial or something the plant could do to itself.

Here is pics!

I’ve also just spent the last 10 minutes with my microscope inspecting at 120 times. There’s not a single sign of any movement

 

[Johnny5thesim]

Another!

 

[Johnny5thesim]

And close up! One at 69x and one at 120x

 

[Johnny5thesim]

Better front of leaf shot!

 

[Emilya Green]

ok, I am convinced by your pictures that it is indeed a calcium deficiency. It is occuring up near the top of the plant and the symptoms are consistent with the cause. You can see that the leaves getting the most light on those plants, and the parts of the leaf getting that light, are where the symptoms are showing up. Some plants are just more hoggish than others, and I would increase the calmag to these individual plants, or start giving it.

 

[Johnny5thesim]

ok, I am convinced by your pictures that it is indeed a calcium deficiency. It is occuring up near the top of the plant and the symptoms are consistent with the cause. You can see that the leaves getting the most light on those plants, and the parts of the leaf getting that light, are where the symptoms are showing up. Some plants are just more hoggish than others, and I would increase the calmag to these individual plants, or start giving it.

Excellent! I definitely feel as if it is in fact calcium.

So my dilemma is, I’m using advanced nutrients micro grow bloom. Their support says I do not need to add cal mag, because their micro has enough.

Seeing this, I would disagree with them. That being said, I’m still not at full strength on their stuff. And my output ppm after each feed is like 2000 plus, which I flush back to 800 or so. So I’m concerned to go full strengthwhich will add more calcium, but could lock them out. Or I could just add some cal mag, so calcium is addressed. And ppm isn’t sky high.

Any thoughts? I really appreciate this emilya!

 

[Emilya Green]

I am a big proponent of following the directions. You say that full strength could lock them out. Do you know that to be a fact? Not till you try. The good folks selling you those nutes might have just been telling you the truth that all that was needed was in there. They have no incentive to lie to you and every incentive for your grow to go well. Do more following of directions and less believing in the bro science that you read on forums. If you have good lights and vigorous plants, there is no reason to believe that they can't handle full strength nutes.
Try the nutes first. Be brave. Try it on all of your plants and see how they respond. The worst that should happen is that you might burn the tips a little bit. It might solve your deficiency problem too, and keep it from happening on the rest of your plants. A little bit of tip burn, despite the dire warnings you read, is not a crisis.

 

[Johnny5thesim]

I am a big proponent of following the directions. You say that full strength could lock them out. Do you know that to be a fact? Not till you try. The good folks selling you those nutes might have just been telling you the truth that all that was needed was in there. They have no incentive to lie to you and every incentive for your grow to go well. Do more following of directions and less believing in the bro science that you read on forums. If you have good lights and vigorous plants, there is no reason to believe that they can't handle full strength nutes.
Try the nutes first. Be brave. Try it on all of your plants and see how they respond. The worst that should happen is that you might burn the tips a little bit. It might solve your deficiency problem too, and keep it from happening on the rest of your plants. A little bit of tip burn, despite the dire warnings you read, is not a crisis.

I definitely don’t know that to be a fact. I was just concerned of lockout having 2000ppm plus runoff. And it could be that very strategy that’s landed me here.

I’ve got 2 more days till dry up on my plants. I will definitely go full strength and see what happens!

Your helpful wisdom, is much appreciated! Thank you!

 

[Johnny5thesim]

I am a big proponent of following the directions. You say that full strength could lock them out. Do you know that to be a fact? Not till you try. The good folks selling you those nutes might have just been telling you the truth that all that was needed was in there. They have no incentive to lie to you and every incentive for your grow to go well. Do more following of directions and less believing in the bro science that you read on forums. If you have good lights and vigorous plants, there is no reason to believe that they can't handle full strength nutes.
Try the nutes first. Be brave. Try it on all of your plants and see how they respond. The worst that should happen is that you might burn the tips a little bit. It might solve your deficiency problem too, and keep it from happening on the rest of your plants. A little bit of tip burn, despite the dire warnings you read, is not a crisis.

One last question! Given the state that you see the plant in, do you think I can turn this around? Or do you think this will severely hamper my flowering? Up until now I am still seeing vigourous growth

 

[Emilya Green]

oh, and you don't have to go all the way up to full strength... knock it up 25% and see if you notice a difference. Of course I think you can turn this around... it is a weed, one of the heartiest living things on the planet. Will it affect your flowering? Yes. Everything you do affects your flowering, some of it to small effect, some large, some of it good and some of it bad. Just give the plant what it is showing you it needs, and it will go on from here. Did you just affect a sizeable portion of your eventual yield? Probably not, but just as it is impossible to prove a negative, you will never know how many fractions of a gram you might have had extra at the end without having made this minor mistake.

There are always penalties for mistakes, either in quality, quantity or time. - Emilya​

 

[Johnny5thesim]

oh, and you don't have to go all the way up to full strength... knock it up 25% and see if you notice a difference. Of course I think you can turn this around... it is a weed, one of the heartiest living things on the planet. Will it affect your flowering? Yes. Everything you do affects your flowering, some of it to small effect, some large, some of it good and some of it bad. Just give the plant what it is showing you it needs, and it will go on from here. Did you just affect a sizeable portion of your eventual yield? Probably not, but just as it is impossible to prove a negative, you will never know how many fractions of a gram you might have had extra at the end without having made this minor mistake.

There are always penalties for mistakes, either in quality, quantity or time. - Emilya​

I did make it all the way up to 88% strength. But then the PPM on runoff scared me back down.

I don’t care over small qty yield stuff. I’m just happy it’s not so far gone that I’m screwed! I’ve been told it will take about two weeks for the calcium to take effect. So I’m worried in the meantime it will get critically worse! But I’ll have to cross my fingers I guess!

 

[Emilya Green]

again, dont believe everything you hear... test any of these wild theories that you can. Right now, your problem appears to be getting worse. If you up the nutes and the problem stops progressing, you will have seen an almost immediate effect from the added calcium. Two weeks is a quarter of the flowering time for some plants and an observant gardener can see the effects of a change pretty quickly.
If it does continue to get worse, then you have two possibilities to consider. 1. we are wrong, its not calcium 2. it is not all in there, all that you need, and you will need to supplement with some calmag.

 

[Aroxol]

I had an issue that sparked up during my last grow (about same time in flower) that looks very similar to what you have. The plant was a heavy calmag drinker and my theory is an excess accumulation of calmag that built up over time caused an excess of iron that LOCKED OUT the uptake of manganese. The way I fixed it was with a flush using chelates and then a reduced feed. Idk if that’s your situation, but maybe something to keep in your back pocket if the addition of calcium doesn’t start to resolve it. I’d start with Emilyas approach first btw as it’s sage advice.

I searched high and low before seeing a leaf on a post that was very close to mine - my leaf on left, manganese deficiency example leaf on right. You’ll be good, totally get that these issues suck, but you’ll be good