Outdoor Soil Preparation and Ammendments

[BWC BayArea]

Skimmed thru the threads, haven't found a satisfactory answer in this forum. After digging out holes to be filled with potting soil, how do I incoporate dolomite lime (how much per bag of soil)? What other ammendments can be used? How long should the ammended soil sit after incorporating all ammendments b4 for planting? This is not organic trying to finish using nutes already available. Pardon my ignorance but I've only watched outdoor b4 while in bloom or days after transplant. Be IRIE, I see ur a mod now. I assume ur often busy, but I'd be honored to hear from u on this. Any other outdoor greenthumbs in the place, ur input is valuable as well. New to this and looking for any and all sound advice. I read a couple stickies at the top of the forums page too, so I did a little research b4 asking these questions. Not doin a guerilla patch.Thanks guys.

 

[GreenLove]

There is a brand of soil at the home depots where I live called Kellogs. They make a product called "amend." Helps loosen soils, adds organics and compost. I use it for my outdoor veggie gardens and around my roses and citrus trees along with Kellogs organic fertilizers.

I personally like it because the cost is around 7 dollars per 2 cubic feet compared to 20 for some quality FFOF and Kellogs contains similar ingredients. But for large scale outdoor gardening, the Kellogs is my choice! Hopefully this helps, unless you already dug out your holes and filled them with you soil of choice. I would think that to ad the correct amount of lime, you need to know the ph of your soil and then make small adjustments over time with testing. How long? couldnt say. I know other amendments such as blood meal and bone meal can take up to 45 days to "compost" after tilling it in to break down and release nutes. Application rates for dolomitic lime and gypsum should be printed on the bag they come in. So many pounds per square foot is usually how it states usage.

I live in a state with no medical MJ laws But I am an avid outdoor gardener and love my trees and flowers all the same.

 

[BWC BayArea]

Thank u greenlove. Holes been dug, but no prep work ahead of time. This was more of a spur of the moment opportunity. So with holes recently dug and the season upon us I don't feel like I have time to wait for ammendments to break down over time or whatnot. I was concerned about dolominte lime. I wonder will I even need it. Guess I'll be waiting to see what the rest of the community comes up with. As far as soil goes, I think I'll try a local brand I did well with a couple years ago. I try to stay away from Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, etc.

 

[Be Irie]

I have thrown seed straight into the ground and fed them fish emulsion and MG ( 20 yrs ago ) and pulled over two lbs off of it... We even use to train them to grow as low as possible.
If you are going to make your own soil from scratch you are going to have to let it bake for 30-45 days to allow plenty of break down time for some of the slower amendments..
If you are going to used bagged soil then I would go with the usual worm castings, kelp, maybe a guano some chicken shit, and some vermiculite.
Dolomite lime is pretty fool proof. It won't raise the PH past 7. You can add that later on if you encounter any low PH problems.. I don't add it to the soil anymore, if needed i use 1/2-1 tbl per gallon of water depending on how much it dropped..
What were you planning on adding to the soil? are you amending the dirt from the hole or using bagged? I have to start planning my outdoor this year, I was thinking of making my own but shot that one down pretty quick...
I will be looking forwad to some more ideas and opinions...

 

[GreenLove]

I hear yeah on the HD stuff. If you read the ingrediants on the Kellogs brand you will see that it is made up of bone meal, blood meal, chicken manure, cotton seed meal, and is composted on top of that (so its ready to go). IMO the only diff between the FFOF and K's is that the Fox Farms stuff is PH stabilized. But to fill a hole with 9cu/ft of FFOF versus K's is a major price diff. Of course if that is not a prob, spend away on the Fox cause its good. But even FFOF says that after 3 weeks you need to add nutes due to the plant using it all up.

My soil is very compacted and i use the organics to amend and loosen it up. It works great. My raised garden bed is amended local dirt and I feed with my own compost tea. I brew it using Peace of Mind (from Fox Farms) yard fert (or kellogs they all contain mycorrhizae and humic acid which you want), worm castings, kellogs topper, blood meal, bone meal.

If you want to use the dirt you got from the holes, just mixing it with good compost and some perlite would prob give you a nice well drained outdoor mix. Especially if you plan on using fertilizers such as grow big or botanicare. BTW I do lean heavily towards the organics.

If any of the more experienced see me headed in the wrong direction here please correct me. Its a learning process and this site is a great source of basic info even for your avg home gardener! Try finding actual people using these techniques and applying the science behind it on other gardening sites. The quality of info is not the same.

 

[BWC BayArea]

So far it looks like I'll be using a local nursery's blend of soil, some vermeculite or coco coir, composted bird manure to fill the holes. I also wanted to pull a Dirtfarmer and use a couple rubermaid tubs as pots. I planned on just using the bagged soil and coir or vermeculite in the tubs, of course drilling drainage holes in the bottom of the tubs. Thank u greenlove and Be IRIE. SHould I be concerned with PHing the water b4 watering outdoors in the ground? In large pots?

 

[GreenLove]

Your welcome. I never concerned myself much with ph but i know it is important. If you want max results I venture to say yes.

I wish you luck. Do you plan on going all organic or a mix of chemical nutes?

 

[BWC BayArea]

Your welcome. I never concerned myself much with ph but i know it is important. If you want max results I venture to say yes.

I wish you luck. Do you plan on going all organic or a mix of chemical nutes?

A mix. Plan to use chemical nutes until I run out of what I already have.

 

[Irish]

Woo Hoo! BWC is going Outdoors!

Before I can be of any appreciable help, BWC, I really need to know the condition and color of the soil you are digging your holes into, and how big the holes are. Also what plant life, weeds, shrubs, trees, etc are growing at and around the site.

I never use lime unless the ground itself has a sour stink to it. Why are you adding it to your bagged mix?

And watering....if it is a public source like city water, best to fill up 50 gallon drums and let the water air for a day before irrigation so all the chlorines and stuff can off-gas and the ph stabilize. If on well water or natural water, just go ahead and use it.

Great to see you venturing outside. You're gonna love it come harvest time.

 

[Be Irie]

It is added to bagged soil because of the mosses... When they break down it will drop the PH of the soil to not good levels...

Not sure I would worry about the chlorine unless you are growing organic as it affects the soil and not so much the plant....

 

[BWC BayArea]

Before I can be of any appreciable help, BWC, I really need to know the condition and color of the soil you are digging your holes into, and how big the holes are. Also what plant life, weeds, shrubs, trees, etc are growing at and around the site.:

I belive its a clay type of soil. Got a couple invasive type vines. One's a blackberry bush type vine. The other I have no clue what it is. No thorns or flowers. The weeds: One looks like clovers, grows with shallow roots. The other looks like a typical weed with thick, hollow stems with yellow flowers, grass, and the thorny big leafed, purple flower type of weeds. Pests that I've found are ants, white flies (on both invasive vine plants),powdery mildew, what looks like black leaf spot on a lot of plants. Hope this helps. Thanks for ur help and input Irish, ur a jewel.

I never use lime unless the ground itself has a sour stink to it. Why are you adding it to your bagged mix?
And watering....if it is a public source like city water, best to fill up 50 gallon drums and let the water air for a day before irrigation so all the chlorines and stuff can off-gas and the ph stabilize. If on well water or natural water, just go ahead and use it.

I read the MMJ Bible about adding dolomite lime to the soil to help balance PH. No other reason. As far as water goes, municipal water. I may incorporate a tall boy type filter if the chlorine is that big of a deal outdoors.

It is added to bagged soil because of the mosses... When they break down it will drop the PH of the soil to not good levels...

Not sure I would worry about the chlorine unless you are growing organic as it affects the soil and not so much the plant....

Not sure if all bagged soils have the lime added. Thanks for ur input Be IRIE, I'm a fan of ur growing style.


The soil I'll be using has bat and chiken manure, mushroom compost, sphagnum peat moss, worm casting, compost, and some more stuff that escapes my memory right now. I'll fill u in when the holes are filled in. Keep in mind that half of these will be in 15-20 gal tubs/pots filled with bagged soil. for the input guys.

 

[GreenLove]

Honestly if you have the holes already dug and you plan on putting the rubbermaid containers into the ground then filling with your potting soil you do have one more option. Line the hole with landscape fabric, then fill it with dirt (no rubberaid container.) This way the landscape fabric is breathable, will let water and organics drain thru to your native soil. And lastly it will prevent unwanted roots from invading your garden bed.

IMO the best part of amending soil and allowing it to mix with the native soil is improved organics. If you have a mold prob already allowing a container to sit in the ground with no aeration between it and the surrounding dirt may cause moss and mold to have a nice little enviroment to grow in. I notice too that in my rose garden at this time of year certain bushes are more prone to mold. These are usually the ones that get less sun due to placement.

If you have a clay type soil I would recommend gypsum applied at the rates on the bag or if you feel confident, mix it to your desired consistency. I like to premix my soil in buckets and I just stir it around adding the amendments until it feels good in my hands. Mainly a loose loamy soil texture. When your done, add some water and see how it mixes together. Also dont expect clay soils to "loosen" immediately. You can mix all these amendments together, water it and find that the clay soil will still clump together. But if it is mixed good and put back in the ground, 4-5 months later you can till the soil by hand and it will break up very nicely.

To me this is the downfall of organics. The time it takes to work. But one growing season (doesnt mean dont grow in it) later you will see a difference. That is what you after with organic amendments. Getting that aeration into the soil that promotes healty roots and a thriving bacteria population. Fortunately the best thing about organics is they are easy to add. Even after decades of neglect and commercial ferts you can just add the organics back in. If you want some immediate organics available in weak form that wont burn your plants, go with the compost tea brew. It is so easy to make. For $20 you can buy the gear to brew ten galons at a time. Let me know if you are interested and I can take some pics of my setup.


BTW your soil mix sounds awsome. I love all of the above!

 

[BWC BayArea]

Pots, Not Liner

Honestly if you have the holes already dug and you plan on putting the rubbermaid containers into the ground then filling with your potting soil you do have one more option. Line the hole with landscape fabric, then fill it with dirt (no rubberaid container.) This way the landscape fabric is breathable, will let water and organics drain thru to your native soil. And lastly it will prevent unwanted roots from invading your garden bed.

I think u misunderstood what was said. The rubbermaid containers are not meant to line the holes, they will act as pots. some plants will be in the ground and others in pots. Check out Dirtfarmer's backyard giants thread and u can see exactly what I was speaking of. This is what it should look like>

Thanks for ur input greenlove.

 

[Irish]

It is added to bagged soil because of the mosses... When they break down it will drop the PH of the soil to not good levels...

Thanks for the explanation.

Not sure I would worry about the chlorine unless you are growing organic as it affects the soil and not so much the plant....

Yep, if you're going OOG, chlorine does make a difference. It affects the biota in the soil, all the organisms and bacterias and fungi--and vacates all worms (if not outright kill them). If you really want your holes to be imbalanced and disfunctional, go ahead and used chlorine in any amount.

 

[BWC BayArea]

Got filtration for that Irish. Not too worried about it. Keep in mind folks this is NOT an organic operation. I didn't plan ahead for this. Opportunity came about in short time. The holes I'd guess are about 3'x1.5'x1.5'-2'. I think I answered ur questions from the other day Irish, what's the verdict from where u sit? The clay is at the bottom of the holes. Its more of a thick mud. The clay looks darker than the lighter brown soil above it. I had to scrape this thick crap off of my shovel. Looks like poor drainage and poor oxygen levels in the clay. I was thinking of just filling these holes with bagged potting soil and planting. I was going to take a couple tubs and drill drainage hole in the bottom, using them as large pots filled with potting soil. For nutes I plan to continue using the Cutting Edge Solutions nutes to feed. Any further suggestions?

 

[Irish]

I belive its a clay type of soil. Got a couple invasive type vines. One's a blackberry bush type vine. The other I have no clue what it is. No thorns or flowers. The weeds: One looks like clovers, grows with shallow roots. The other looks like a typical weed with thick, hollow stems with yellow flowers, grass, and the thorny big leafed, purple flower type of weeds. Pests that I've found are ants, white flies (on both invasive vine plants),powdery mildew, what looks like black leaf spot on a lot of plants. Hope this helps. Thanks for ur help and input Irish, ur a jewel.

I'm a pain in the arse, I know I am. But what color is your soil (the ground, not the bagged) both dry and wet? Does it clump or crumble when you dig in it? Were the holes a pain in the arse to dig?


If it is for sure a clay soil and holds together like, well, pottery clay, and all you are concerned with cultivating is the holes themselves, make them much wider than your 1 1/2ft--double that width would be a minimum. The roots of your plants won't penetrate hard clay in the summer, and worms won't be coming to help you out. In the end, your plants will be smaller, and possibly rootbound. If you want a large plant, give the roots the ground they can penetrate and spread in. Your plants won't get any bigger than the roots will allow.

Sorry for the brevity--people are showing up and I have to cut this short. Been so busy lately....I'm not done commenting, though. We'll talk about weeds next time I'm here. Slan.

 

[BWC BayArea]

The holes were pretty easy to dig after the rain. The top few inches is potting soil almost black looking when wet. Beneath is a more dull gray/brown colored soil. The soil had a few clumps and rocks in it. It doens't crumble when we but its far from the viscosity of the clay. The soil removed from the holes reminds me of what u'd see when fire fighters dig a fire break. I noticed earwigs chewing on some roots too. I also saw a lizard looking worm in the soil. He burrowed into the soil after we stared at each other for a few secs. I saw a few worms throught the soil. When I saw them I just threw them back in the hole. Some I chopped in half to make more worms (if the halves survive). Should earwigs be a concern? I actually saw one right on some roots while digging. I'll be awaiting the rest of ur comments Irish. Thanks again.

 

[Oddnonsmoker]

I've found something that might help both of you communicate: Finding Out What Your Soil Type Is

The site itself has detailed instructions, but you basically navigate around like you would with Google Earth, define an area of interest, and it will tell you the soil types (and their relative locations) within that area of interest. It will also describe the soil's texture, %organic carbon, hydrological characteristics, and the pH of the soil if undisturbed, and more. Half of the other stuff you probably won't truly understand without an ag major. Understand that these are generalities; only testing will give you definitive answers.

It is incredibly useful when I'm looking to acquire more farm ground. The soil types present may change my decision when considering purchasing some farm ground.

 

[Be Irie]

Ok, I ate a bunch of cookies so if this is a dumb question then it is the cookies fault.... Why does it matter what the dirt is like if he is growing in containers?

 

[BWC BayArea]

Some will be in the ground, some in containers Be IRIE.