OverWatering and Nute...With Pics!

[GTMan]

Alright guys here's my specs

Strain: Clones of unknown type
lighting type: SIDE: 2 4"T-5 panels TOP:CFL. 6x23 2x42 1x68 in a pvc rectangular hood.
lighting timing: 24/7
lighting height from plants: top 1-2 inches, side 3-4 inches
vent method:open doors and small fan
grow method: soil, root organics no additives
grow mode: normal
nute/fert brand: Advanced Hydroponics Grow/Bloom/Micro
nute/fert mix:Grow/Bloom/Micro
nute/fert additives:None
medium/soil type:Root Organics
medium/soil quantity per plant:3 or 4 gallon
water source: Bottled Water or tap water depending on if I have Bottled.
water quality:Do not know
water amount per plant Water when soil was dry to 4" deep...Read Post
(soil/non hydro): frequency: About every couple days, then I fert'd 2 times in a row.
flushing interval:3 days ago
reservoir change interval(hydro): N/A
plant age: 62 days
Ph fresh nutes/ferts: Ph of 6-6.5
PPM fresh nutes/ferts:Do Not Know
Ph spent nutes/ferts**:Drainage 6.1-6.3
PPM spent nutes/ferts**:Do Not Know
Temp "day":no higher than 82
Temp "night":24/7 no night but temps never get lower than 65
Relative humidity "day":* Do Not Know but outside humidity is 50-75%
Relative Humidity "night":* Do Not Know but outside 50-75%

And the story:

I had some very nicely growing plants, both were very dark green and with very tight internode spacing, bushy queens with perky tops and arms. he main stem was very thick and stable and supported the plant well. My lighting setup is fabulous and is providing a large amount 38,000 lumens, 360 actual watts of flourescent lighting both 64k and lower 27k color spectrum spread over the tops and 2" 4 bulb T-5 panels on 2 sides of two plants, about 5 square feet total. So its surrounded by flourescent light!

My medium is Root Organics un-aided, I had been watering my plants as needed every 3 or so days fluctuating between bottled water, and tap water, sometimes Ph'd and sometimes not. I was fertilizing every other time with a mild to medium (according to bottle) strength nutes, Ph'd of course to 6.2 to 6.5. Into week 6 I started to spray at a mild strength, the nutes onto the leaves for foliar feeding twice a week but then held off on watering them as I was not home much... so I think I under watered them this week..

Into week 7 for some reason I watered with %75 strength nutes by mixing up 2 gallons of water and adding in nutes and then adjusting the Ph to 5.8 +/- .2, I watered each plant with a half liter of water and saved the rest in two liter bottles and over the next two days I poured in the rest that was left, I did this thinking they needed it as the soil was so dry one day, like bone dry. I also foliar fed them 3 days in a row too. At the end of week 7 I noticed a few of the bottom leaves start to turn yellow and some of the overall leaves were yellowing at the the very tips of them and ALL the leaves were very very droopy, clawed under and were looking very sad.

At the beginning of week 8 (this week) Sunday, I put them into my bath tub and I filled the tub with tap water and then drained it 3 times in a row to flush them thinking they were over nuted. I let them rest 24 hours and they were still looking bad so I flushed them again this time pouring Ph'd bottled water 4 Gallons through one at a time so that it would drain out the bottom. The drainage Ph was slowly falling from 6.8 to eventually 6.2 as I went, testing from each gallon I Poured into them by collecting a small portion of the first drops that came out.

I then let them rest 1.5 days. They were continuing to yellow and look bad so I pulled them out of the pots to check and they looked slightly root bound but the roots were very bright white, and beautiful, all spread out and no bad smell, slime, or rot at all. So I repotted them into larger pots (their final size pots) 3.5 gallon sized pots.

Part of the repotting involved sprinkling root hormone powder lightly into the hole I dug into the new soil filled pot to aid in root growth into the new medium. I had done this 2 previous repots and they seemed to LOVE it so I did it for this repotting. And then I set in the plant and then lightly watered the whole plant/soil to settle the soil and plant into the newly potted pot, and to wet the rooting powder inside the hole.

Then I let them rest 3 days and here we are today. Plants still look the same and the leaves that were yellowing are getting slightly worse, and some others are starting to yellow, all the leaves are dooopy and clawing, but mostly they are dark green, a healthy looking green. The new growth is bright green and clawed, some of the leaves are curling and twisting and I am worried.

Here are the pics of the drooping:

Pics of the tops of the plants:

Here are some pics of the leaves I cut off the plant and laid them out in order of progression of yellowing.

And Finally pics of my lighting setup

So I hope I have left enough detailed information to assist in diagnosing what has happened to my plants. everything was going so well and then BAM. So any advice, suggestions or really ANYTHING reply!
Please any old pros out there care to lend a hand/word I'd sure appreciate it!

 

[smokr1]

looks like nute burn , i would keep them on straight water for a while , then reintraduce nutes very lightly after a week , you should be using cal mag with r.o. water , it could be a calcium magnesium deficiency ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, smkr1

 

[GTMan]

Thanks for the replies guys

2nd posting with UPDATE!?!?!?

This posting documents the passing of 8 days from when I knew I had a problem and had to flush my pots and repot the plants and almost a full week and a half from when I first saw the issue start.

Well here are the pics...

These pics are taken 5 days since the last pics in the first post(which were taken 2 or 3 days after flushing)... you should be able to see some improvement

General Overall Photos:

And The Tops of the plants...

Close Ups of the Colas...

Side shots and bottom views...

The Yellowing...

Leaf Tip Close up

Family Shots...

ANY BETTER???...

I Think so but theres still ALOT of room for improvement...

What did I do?

Well I noticed the inside soil temp was hovering around 81 degrees, and that the leaves were looking like they were suffering from heat stress because they had raised ridges between the inter-veining of the leaves that were closest to the CFL and T5 Lights. So I gave them a rest from the T5's for a 8 hour period each day and they are continuing to loose water weight in the pots.

That's it since repotting them, all I have done is reduce the lighting that was so close a bit and left them alone to heal after flushing.

Well there ya go some pics to see whats happened over the last couple days.

Anyone think the yellowing leaves, or the twists and curls mean anything specific?

Maybe Ph issue? still over nuted in the root ball? do I need another flush in a few days?
The soil is pretty dry down to 3 inches, and when I dig i find roots starting to penetrate into the new soil medium from the repotting to larger sized pots.

Should I water or nute flush again? I am fairly sure they could use some water since the leaves on the smaller plant are nearly horizontal again, and the larger one leaves are starting to perk up (but still some are yellowing)

Also the new growth at the tops are a little twisted and still curling under some.


Should I water/nute/flush/ or continue to leave alone? Remember its been about 7 days since they had any kind of water... Please!!!!

Please any tips would be great!

 

[smokr1]

i dont think light is the problem , i have more t5s than you and i keep them 3 inches away , stay on water , they look like their improving , it will take time , introduce nutes super light wait longer ................. smokr1

 

[GTMan]

Yeah I don't think the amount of light was/is the problem either. The heat being X'ferd into the pots "might" have been an issue. I use a meat thermometer inserted into the middle of the plant to check internal soil temps. The middle was reading up to 82 degrees F and the outside (nearest the light panels) was registering up to 85 degrees F.

So for 8 hours a day I turned off the T5's, remember I use 24x7 lighting to let the medium cool down a bit. I also tilted my fan a bit to blow across the pots and into the canopy up to the top lights to create a cool air circulation.

The small plant is looking soo much better even several hours since my last post they have been improving in leaf position, turning up now and almost horizontal.

The bigger one is SLOWLY looking better, but BOTH plants still have a few leaves each that are yellowing and the tops, new growth is twisting and is kinda crispy, dry (not brittle) with raised ridges between the veins.

I haven't watered yet, just an hour ago I sprayed some ph'd bottle water on the leaves to increase humidity... but no nutes yet..

The bigger plants soil is mostly dry down to 5 inches...Should I water now? and if so how much?

 

[PitViper]

stop overwatering them..its not nutes...let the bitch dry out really well each time

 

[GTMan]

My ladies are high class whores they're called Courtesan's.

And I have not put a drop of water onto the plants OR soil until today at 5:30 pm when I sprayed the leaves with small amount of water to increase the humidity as the ambient temp in the garage is 60 degrees F and relative humidity of %20.

I don't want to water or anything till I receive more advice. It's been 8 days since the last watering though, and the soil is dry down to 5 inches.

 

[PitViper]

its a big pot....give it more time..when you do water go 50% strength.

 

[GTMan]

Yuppers, continue to wait heard....

I feel so weird not giving them any water for over a week! I thought you were supposed to water ever 3 to 4 days on a normal schedule.

I fear that when I start watering again the soil will be so dry it will not absorb it and just run straight through the pot.

So maybe on day 9 (tomorrow) or day 10 of no water or even longer?

 

[PitViper]

Yuppers, continue to wait heard....

I feel so weird not giving them any water for over a week! I thought you were supposed to water ever 3 to 4 days on a normal schedule.

I fear that when I start watering again the soil will be so dry it will not absorb it and just run straight through the pot.

So maybe on day 9 (tomorrow) or day 10 of no water or even longer?

it looks like its better no? let it dry out...Im not telling you to wilt it. Its still recovering from its previous malady. when its dry feel the weight 1sts...break up the crust with your fingers or a fork....water it....the water will run right out.....feel the weight again.....water it thru once more....feel the weight again. your plant is watered.
once the plants have recovered.....they will get bigger and their water intake will be increased dramatically.
mine start out at 8-9 days as a seedling and are at 4 days now in bloom for 33 days

you now have 3 reference points of how to guage water usage just by lifting the pot.
hope that helps

 

[Droopy Dog]

stop overwatering them..its not nutes...let the bitch dry out really well each time

That would be a start, there is no 'schedule', learn to read your plants. They might need water in 3 days, or it could be 5. Go by the weight of the pot.

Myself, I water like hell till I get good run off (~30%+-) and then no water till they are near drooping.

Do NOT nute overly dry plants, unless you really want to see how fast nute burn can set in. I usually nute the day or 2 after watering, then let the plant dry as normal and water again.

Now, the most important thing. It looks like you have both cal/mag and pH issues. Both can be cleared up with powdered dolomite lime. Not only does it supply cal/mag, it also keeps the soil pH buffered in the sweet zone of 6.5-6.8.

It's cheap, ~$5 for a 40# bag at Lowes or HD. Just make sure it's powdered, not pelletized or hydrated.

It's best mixed into the soil beforehand and even the most expensive bagged soils don't have enough, but you can mix 2tbl/gallon of pot size and water it in if necessary. It's slow release at best, so don't expect results overnight.


DD

 

[GTMan]

it looks like its better no? let it dry out...Im not telling you to wilt it. Its still recovering from its previous malady. when its dry feel the weight 1sts...break up the crust with your fingers or a fork....water it....the water will run right out.....feel the weight again.....water it thru once more....feel the weight again. your plant is watered.
once the plants have recovered.....they will get bigger and their water intake will be increased dramatically.
mine start out at 8-9 days as a seedling and are at 4 days now in bloom for 33 days

you now have 3 reference points of how to guage water usage just by lifting the pot.
hope that helps

YES the big plant looks allot better today, the leaves are almost horizontal, it is starting to grow again at the tops (almost a half inch since yesterday)
The smaller plant is nearly 100% well, all leaves are horizontal and its grown almost a whole inch since yesterday (I had to raise my lights for it!)

Good advice about watering. My big plant pot feels almost there in regards to watering again. I might wait another 24 hours to make sure.

Pics on the way in a couple hours.

That would be a start, there is no 'schedule', learn to read your plants. They might need water in 3 days, or it could be 5. Go by the weight of the pot.

Myself, I water like hell till I get good run off (~30%+-) and then no water till they are near drooping.

Do NOT nute overly dry plants, unless you really want to see how fast nute burn can set in. I usually nute the day or 2 after watering, then let the plant dry as normal and water again.

Now, the most important thing. It looks like you have both cal/mag and pH issues. Both can be cleared up with powdered dolomite lime. Not only does it supply cal/mag, it also keeps the soil pH buffered in the sweet zone of 6.5-6.8.

It's cheap, ~$5 for a 40# bag at Lowes or HD. Just make sure it's powdered, not pelletized or hydrated.

It's best mixed into the soil beforehand and even the most expensive bagged soils don't have enough, but you can mix 2tbl/gallon of pot size and water it in if necessary. It's slow release at best, so don't expect results overnight.


DD

Thanks for the reply. I do have some dolomite lime, but its pelletized. Can I crush it myself with a mortal and pestle grinder an use that or should I just buy a bag?

I will not put in any nutes for the first watering, I want to gauge the Ph of the soil and establish a base line and see where that's at.

I'm going to put up some pics of the plants here in a couple hours to show everyone what they look like.

Thanks keep the advice commin'!1!

 

[GTMan]

Update With Pics

Okay its Tuesday now 10 days since my decision to do something about my poor wilting, yellowing plants and last flush.

All I have done is: Flush on Sunday 10 days ago, and add a fan to aid in transpiration of water through the plants/leaves, reduce the amount of lumens/heat being radiated into the large plant pot and leave the plants alone.

I updated once with photos showing what they looked like 5 days after flush, and now 10 days after flush.

Views from the side:

BIG PLANT:

SMALL PLANT:

Views of the tops:

BIG PLANT:

SMALL PLANT:

So with all pics uploaded you can see an improvement in the drooping of the leaves as the plant has absorbed the water in the pots from flushing. I am going to wait another 24 hours till tomorrow to water again.

So... what y'all think so far?

 

[PitViper]

That would be a start, there is no 'schedule', learn to read your plants. They might need water in 3 days, or it could be 5. Go by the weight of the pot.

Myself, I water like hell till I get good run off (~30%+-) and then no water till they are near drooping.

Do NOT nute overly dry plants, unless you really want to see how fast nute burn can set in. I usually nute the day or 2 after watering, then let the plant dry as normal and water again.

Now, the most important thing. It looks like you have both cal/mag and pH issues. Both can be cleared up with powdered dolomite lime. Not only does it supply cal/mag, it also keeps the soil pH buffered in the sweet zone of 6.5-6.8.


It's cheap, ~$5 for a 40# bag at Lowes or HD. Just make sure it's powdered, not pelletized or hydrated.

It's best mixed into the soil beforehand and even the most expensive bagged soils don't have enough, but you can mix 2tbl/gallon of pot size and water it in if necessary. It's slow release at best, so don't expect results overnight.


DD

well said.....reps

 

[bongtastic]

IMO, you are screwing with your plants too much. They're probably in a state of constant stress.

Here's a few tips:

For watering:

Wait until the top inch or so of soil is BONE DRY before watering.

Start off by slowly saturating the top layer of soil and allow the soil to rest for about 5 minutes and then continue watering. I have found this helps the soil to retain more moisture, instead of letting all the water drain straight through.

Your pH could be a huge problem. Soil is supposed to be right between 6.5-7.0. Certain nutrients need a specific pH range to be able to be useful to the plant.

Yellowing can indicate lack of or lockout of nitrogen. The curling down of the leaves generally means the plant is getting over-ferted. Someone once explained cannabis nutrient uptake to me like this:

Cannabis plants are just like little kids. If you feed a little kid nothing but bread and water every day, and then one day give him the option of eating liver he will gladly accept and eat as much as his little stomach can handle.

If you feed a little kid nothing but candy and junkfood, and then one day give him some liver that little kid will probably skip right over it, continuing to eat junk food and candy.

So, if you get the metaphor... there are certain nutrients that the cannabis plant prefers more than others... so if you are feeding your plant too much junk food, it won't eat it's liver and grow up strong and healthy. Got it? =D

 

[bongtastic]

Also, one other tip... stop reading so much about growing marijuana and actually grow some marijuana. ;-) From some of the decisions you have made it seems that you are over analyzing your grow... (added air flow to aid transpiration? cmon...) It's a weed man, it need very little to grow healthy and strong!

Oh, and cut out the foliar feeding until you get a better knack for growing. Follow this mantra: K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid!)

 

[Droopy Dog]

Thanks for the reply. I do have some dolomite lime, but its pelletized. Can I crush it myself with a mortal and pestle grinder an use that or should I just buy a bag?

Buy a bag of the powdered, it's only ~$5 for a 40# bag.

Even if you crush up the pellets, it won't be fine enough. I use the pelletized in my garden and it literally takes years to fully break down. Fine for a garden, not so good for something that will be done in 2 or 3 months.

It's ground up rock after all and really doesn't dissolve. The powdered is about like portland cement or talcum powder in consistency and still takes some time to start to work. Like, if you watered it in, it would still be at least a week before you saw any results.

I had nothing but problems with pH lockout till I finally started adding the powdered dolomite lime to my mixes. Now, that is a thing of the past. I was amazed at how many different things got cleared up when the soil pH got right.

DD

 

[GTMan]

I fully appreciate all the advice on watering, nutrients and analogies everyone has given.

It's good to have advice from an outside persons view, I thought I was being simple. I had only messed up one week and that's what got me to where I am now.

So I am going to post an update about what I did yesterday.
Ok guys here is a pretty big update of what I did today.

It's now ummm 11 days since I flushed my babies and the pots are completely dry to almost the very bottom. The top of my bif plant is bone dry to about 2-3 inches and My small plant is looking great, but the large one is still fighting but gettin' there.

The big plant's leaves are a bit curled, twisted and browning at some of the tips, some leaves have yellowing that is turning into brown spots in the middle of the yellowing. Some of the tips are browning at the very tip and some of the leaves are showing nutrient lock out or nutrient movement issues. I am thinking now I have a Ph problem preventing proper absorbtion of nutrients.

At 9:00 am I decided to add some Ph'd water to my large plant. I did and noticed the run off was 5.1!! So since it's been 11 days since I watered last and that was a flush....I have to flush again to fix the Ph. issue...

So I flushed with the following 5 gallons of Ph'd water about a liter at a time and here are the results of the runoff...

1st 6.3 ----5.7
2nd 6.5 ----5.4
3rd 6.5 ----5.2
4th 6.5 ----5.3
5th 6.5 ----5.6
6th 6.5 ----5.4

I was concerned the runoff was still so low so I upped my Ph of water going in

7th 7.6 ----5.6
8th 7.6 ----5.7
9th 7.6 ----5.7
10th7.6 ----5.8
11th 8.0 ----6.0

I stopped here because I had flushed so much water that I wanted to post and see what the community had to say about this ? I can't seem to get the Ph up to a reasonable level without putting in HIGH Ph wanter...

What am I supposed to do?

I also have some pics to show my plant that I am concerned about...


Pics Immediately after flushing..

And here are the shots of the plant 12 hours later after flushing this morning..

Side Shot

Bottoms

Tops

Pics showing the yellowing and browning.

So there ya go. I thinks it's a Ph issue being too low. I tried to fix the Ph but was only able to get it to 6.0.

I have some cal mag and powdered lime now from the grow shop.

I'm going to wait a few days for the plant to absorb this last watering and then take advice on adding the cal/mag and powdered lime.

Thanks guys for all the support and advice!

 

[bongtastic]

They're looking much better. Looks like they're recovering!

 

[GTMan]

They're looking much better. Looks like they're recovering!

What about the Ph issue and new browning leaf tips/ deepening yellowing of some of the bigger leaves? Or is it not an issue?