2nd Soil Grow: White Widow x Creeper Cross 600 Watt

[Giantsfan24]

I have close ups posted on page 5 of this journal or click here...brown spots start in the veins and slowly spread outward.

EDIT: I already threw away the leaves I took a picture of earlier. I don't want to remove any more leaves until I know for sure its not normal because the leaves look like they are still providing nutrients and transpiring.

EDIT #2: Thank you for helping!

Edit #3: I'm using compost tea every other water and cactus juice with superthive every other water.

So you did..I'd seen those previously but had forgotten they were there.

From what I can see you could be running a mild Phosphorus, Potassium or Manganese deficiency. That said, it's really early in whatever this is so it's not easy to see.

Generally in a potassium or manganese deficiencies, brown spots show up later so it may not be either of those as these symptoms are early on and you'll get leaf tips going south on you before the brown spots show up.

From what I can see, it looks more like phophorus to me based on the pics. Downward curling is a symptom of this deficiency as well.

Treating this is recommended thus*:

"Treat deficiency by lowering ph to 5.5 to 6.2 for hydroponic units; 6 to 7 for clay soils; 5.5 - 6.5 for potting soils so phosphorus will become available.

If the soil is too acidic, and an excess of iron and zinc exists, phosphorus becomes unavailable. If you're growing in soil, mix a complete fertilizer that contains phosphorus into the growing medium before planting. ( I realize it's too late for that)

Fertigate with an inorganic, complete hydroponic fertilizer that contains phosphorus.

Mix in the organic nutrients - bat guano, steamed bone meal, natural phosphates, or barnyard manure - to add phosphorus to soil. Always us finely ground organic components that are readily available to the plants."

That's what it looks like to me based on my reference material. Hope that helps.

*Resource: Marijuana Horticulture - The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Grower's Bible by Jorge Cervantes

 

[Mork]

Thank you for the help. My soil's ph has been staying around 6.5. I do use Bonemeal with the soil and in my compost teas. It could be Phosphorus the way the buds have been growing so fast. I think I am going to add 1 tbs dolomite lime & 1/2 tbs bonemeal into each gallon of water this time instead of the Cactus Juice & Superthrive. Plant B is almost 4 feet wide in all directions LOL

I took these pictures today which makes it 25 Days into flower.

White Widow Plant B:

 

[Giantsfan24]

Thank you for the help. My soil's ph has been staying around 6.5. I do use Bonemeal with the soil and in my compost teas. It could be Phosphorus the way the buds have been growing so fast. I think I am going to add 1 tbs dolomite lime & 1/2 tbs bonemeal into each gallon of water this time instead of the Cactus Juice & Superthrive. Plant B is almost 4 feet wide in all directions LOL

I took these pictures today which makes it 25 Days into flower.

White Widow Plant B:

wow..awesome results..it's probably nothing..

 

[Mork]

No its something...I just checked on them and whatever it is, is spreading like crazy & getting worse. The picture of the leaves below did not look like that this morning. I don't want to water yet until I get more feedback.

Here are up close pictures from leaves near the top:

 

[Giantsfan24]

Not trying to force this down your throat or anything..just trying to be helpful.

Brown spots like that are caused by very few things according to the book I'm referencing...

Those are way better pics by the way..

Pic..

This is what it looks like to me..what do you think? This is what he describes as a phosphorus deficiency..

What is your rh running?



Leaves near the top....light stress?? How far away are the lights from the tops? What do the bud sites look like? I'm thinking normal based on the pics but just checking on that too..

 

[Mork]

No I don't think you are trying to force anything LOL I was just trying to add some urgency to the thread I appreciate your help immensely!

RH is running between 40-48%. Light is about 10 inches from tops. Buds are not affected.

This problem started a few days ago and is progressing from the middle of the plant canopy all the way to top leaves now. New growth does not seem to be affected yet. I am not 100% convinced that it is from lack of Phosphorous. I haven't seen any stunted growth in fact it has been the opposite. I haven't seen any bluish or purplish leaves. The veins on the underside of the leaf are green and look normal. I see small rust colored spots all over the top of the affected leaves now. The spots are heavier in some areas so it makes it look like blotches.

Does your book have any pictures of PH burning or Potassium Defiency?

 

[Giantsfan24]

Sure..

Let me know if you can't read these and I'll take more shots..here is the page on Potassium deficiencies..

The leaves don't look like this and that's what lead me to phosphorus..

Could be though..you know?? LOL

I don't know if I know what I'm talking about here but you said that it started in the middle and is moving..so we know it's a mobile nutrient not an immobile nutrient...both phosphorus and potassium are mobile.

We know it's not nitrogen but if it was that would be ok with where you are in flower. It's not magnesium..the leaves don't brown like that from a mag deficiency. It's not sulfur as that is immobile so is calcium.

Talking myself through this it could only be phosphorus or potassium, two of the 3 macronutrients in play here.

Your leaves aren't displaying what the book shows is related to potassium. It looks like phosphorus from the pics.

Both treatments, for potassium and phosphorus deficiencies are the same...

"Flush the growing medium of affected plants with a very mild and complete fertilizer. Severe problems require that more water be flushed through the growing medium. Flush with 3 times the volume of water for the volume of the growing medium."

I'd so do that...I did it with my grow and it worked GREAT!

Can't miss there as both treatments are the same.

There isn't anything on "ph burning" in the index...I've never heard of that before..do educate me if you will..

You're making your own nutes essentially?

Thanks!

 

[Mork]

Big Thank You!

What about toxic salt buildup? Check this out Toxic Salts Buildup Pictures I do have hard tap water, but I didn't have this problem last grow. I will flush with some rain water that I saved from today and some light nutes. Hopefully this will help her

 

[Giantsfan24]

Big Thank You!

What about toxic salt buildup? Check this out Toxic Salts Buildup Pictures I do have hard tap water, but I didn't have this problem last grow. I will flush with some rain water that I saved from today and some light nutes. Hopefully this will help her

The link didn't come through...pm me..

What is the TDS of your tap water? Was your last grow the same strain?



EDIT: Here is what Jorge says about toxic salt build up:

General signs of over-fertilization or toxic salt buildup include burned leaf tips, discolored leaves, and slow growth. Actual toxic signs appear about two weeks after they initially occur. If you set plants up on a weekly fertilization schedule, make sure to flush containers every 30 days with 2-3 times the volume of weak nutrient solution (5-10 percent mix) as growing medium. This flush will wash out excess fertilizer salts that have built up. Also, make sure 10-20 percent of each irrigation drains out the bottom of the growing container to keep salt buildup to a minimum.

Again, flushing would be the call here. Depending on the TDS of your water, I don't think that would cause toxic salt build up but over fertilization would.

Wouldn't hard water give you troubles like cal/mag toxicity? Or chlorine issues?

Additionally:

Change fertilizer from a high-nitrogen mix used during vegetative growth to a high-phosphorus/potassium super bloom mix when you induce flowering.

 

[Mork]

I sent you the PM with the link apparently that site is a no--no. I'm trying to figure out my TDS. The 2010 annual report for my city has not been released yet. Last grow I did multiple strains, but not white widow.

I would think that hardwater would give calcium or magnesium issues too....its just so hard to tell. No chlorine issues because I let the water sit out or use air stones.

My Current Flower Compost Tea Recipe per 5 gallons of H2O:

1 c Worm Castings (NPK 0.5-0.1-0.1)
1/2 c Bonemeal (NPK 6-9-0)
1/2 c Peruvian Seabird Guano (NPK 10-10-2)
5 tbs Maxicrop Powder (NPK 1-0-4)
5 tbs Superthrive
5 tbs Unsulphured Molasses (every 3 days if I don't use all of the tea within 1st 72 hours)

Then I dilute the tea to 1/2 c per gallon of water and I will increase steadily based on my plant's response.

 

[Giantsfan24]

I sent you the PM with the link apparently that site is a no--no. I'm trying to figure out my TDS. The 2010 annual report for my city has not been released yet. Last grow I did multiple strains, but not white widow.

I would think that hardwater would give calcium or magnesium issues too....its just so hard to tell. No chlorine issues because I let the water sit out or use air stones.

My Current Flower Compost Tea Recipe per 5 gallons of H2O:

1 c Worm Castings (NPK 0.5-0.1-0.1)
1/2 c Bonemeal (NPK 6-9-0)
1/2 c Peruvian Seabird Guano (NPK 10-10-2)
5 tbs Maxicrop Powder (NPK 1-0-4)
5 tbs Superthrive
5 tbs Unsulphured Molasses (every 3 days if I don't use all of the tea within 1st 72 hours)

Then I dilute the tea to 1/2 c per gallon of water and I will increase steadily based on my plant's response.

Geez that mixture makes me hungry just looking at all the good stuff!

You clearly have a handle on that...flushing...that's where I'd go...in fact, I'm going to flush next week myself going into my home stretch.

I'll ck the link.

 

[Mork]

Well I went ahead and flushed it with rain water only. My gut tells me that there are plenty of nutrients in the soil so I didn't add any nutes this time. My poor baby doesn't look very happy...I hope I don't lose her. I will post updated pictures tomorrow afternoon once the lights turn on. I am really surprised how quickly she went down hill

 

[Mork]

Okay so I now think it is a phosphorous deficiency based upon the leaves today. I did find out that my soil runoff water was at 6.0 so that might be part of the problem. I have been checking my ph after adding nutes except when I added Superthrive DUH! I found out last night that the Superthrive actually lowers my tap water PH from 7.0 to 6.0. I didn't realize it caused that much of a decrease with 1/4 tsp per gallon. (Thankfully the clones I took from both plants were sucessful!)

Lessons Learned:

*How to identify early stage Phospherous Deficiency by rust colored spots in viens that spread into blotches within 72 hours.

*Rust Colored spots also signal PH block out.

*Superthrive lowers PH very well

*Check PH everytime after adding nutes (even if you checked the ph before in the previous bottle don't assume the manufacturer stabilizes/ checks PH in each container)

*Plant B is a heavy feeder

Updated Pictures (I took these without flash to highlight the discoloration):

 

[Giantsfan24]

Okay so I now think it is a phosphorous deficiency based upon the leaves today. I did find out that my soil runoff water was at 6.0 so that might be part of the problem. I have been checking my ph after adding nutes except when I added Superthrive DUH! I found out last night that the Superthrive actually lowers my tap water PH from 7.0 to 6.0. I didn't realize it caused that much of a decrease with 1/4 tsp per gallon. (Thankfully the clones I took from both plants were sucessful!)

Lessons Learned:

*How to identify early stage Phospherous Deficiency by rust colored spots in viens that spread into blotches within 72 hours.

*Rust Colored spots also signal PH block out.

*Superthrive lowers PH very well

*Check PH everytime after adding nutes (even if you checked the ph before in the previous bottle don't assume the manufacturer stabilizes/ checks PH in each container)

*Plant B is a heavy feeder

Updated Pictures (I took these without flash to highlight the discoloration):

I knew you'd figure it out!!

 

[Mork]

Hopefully she will pull through...Next watering will include compost tea. What should I do with the leaves, wait for them to yellow then remove?

 

[Giantsfan24]

Hopefully she will pull through...Next watering will include compost tea. What should I do with the leaves, wait for them to yellow then remove?

I'm not sure how far along you are in flower but whatever trimming you do at this point I would be gentle taking only a few leaves per plant per trimming.

I'm a bit more conservative than some I guess with regard to trimming. I like only as much trimming as I absolutely need for airflow or to remove diseased leaves.

That's my style though...for what it's worth.

 

[Mork]

4th Week Flower Starts Tuesday...I would normally remove leaves with necrosis on them, but there are so many this time that I don't want to put too much stress on her. I think I will wait until they are more yellow before I remove them.

 

[HempRocket]

4th Week Flower Starts Tuesday...I would normally remove leaves with necrosis on them, but there are so many this time that I don't want to put too much stress on her. I think I will wait until they are more yellow before I remove them.

I would agree with that. Doesn't hurt to wait a little longer for them to drop themselves.

 

[McCrackin]

dude thats p (def) with the signs of over-watering... shit I am like doogie howser. booooyaehh...

I am gonna follow your grow if you don't mind.

 

[Mork]

Thanks for checking out the grow. Plant B is not getting any worse. She looks like she is hanging in there...in fact her buds are still getting bigger. I don't think I am over watering because I wait until the soil starts to withdraw from the sides of the bucket prior to watering. The leaves you see that are pointed down are actually the affected leaves in beginning stage of P deficiency. They get these rust colored spots in the veins, curl downword, and then all of sudden get blotches and curl up. I'm happy that I know what to look for in future grows New pictures coming tonight or tomorrow.