300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

[Karr]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Nine leafer, few slight discrepancies in your math.

Your running a 400w CMH bulb and a suitable ballast. The ballast you chose is a magnetic(of coarse for CMH without a very specific digi) which are generally not very efficient at charging the lamp. The figure to use should be closer to 500 watts to power that 400 bulb.

Edit: perhaps your ballast/line in is better as my ballast draws more than 460, it usually sits just under 500.

Other than that you just get into less universal figures that differ from each setup, primarily cooling. Ss's tent required, I believe, twice the power to cool as his led tent, granted it is not CMH. In my experience, however, I have not found CMH to be all that much cooler.

The reflector you Listed is open, so I imagine the general room ventilation and cooling to be even higher draw. You could of coarse go to a sealed reflector, just a few more bucks in ducting and reflector cost.

The ballast draw of around 500w could be negated by a higher priced digital ballast designed to work a low frequency that the cmh would need, but then higher initial cost.

 

[IrishBoy]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Nine leafer, few slight discrepancies in your math.

Your running a 400w CMH bulb and a suitable ballast. The ballast you chose is a magnetic(of coarse for CMH without a very specific digi) which are generally not very efficient at charging the lamp. The figure to use should be closer to 500 watts to power that 400 bulb.

Edit: perhaps your ballast/line in is better as my ballast draws more than 460, it usually sits just under 500.

Other than that you just get into less universal figures that differ from each setup, primarily cooling. Ss's tent required, I believe, twice the power to cool as his led tent, granted it is not CMH. In my experience, however, I have not found CMH to be all that much cooler.

The reflector you Listed is open, so I imagine the general room ventilation and cooling to be even higher draw. You could of coarse go to a sealed reflector, just a few more bucks in ducting and reflector cost.

The ballast draw of around 500w could be negated by a higher priced digital ballast designed to work a low frequency that the cmh would need, but then higher initial cost.

good point. you dont think CMH run that much cooler then HPS? ive always wondered that.

very good post my friend, and i would have to agree.

 

[Nine Leafer]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Nine leafer, few slight discrepancies in your math.

Your running a 400w CMH bulb and a suitable ballast. The ballast you chose is a magnetic(of coarse for CMH without a very specific digi) which are generally not very efficient at charging the lamp. The figure to use should be closer to 500 watts to power that 400 bulb.

Edit: perhaps your ballast/line in is better as my ballast draws more than 460, it usually sits just under 500.

Other than that you just get into less universal figures that differ from each setup, primarily cooling. Ss's tent required, I believe, twice the power to cool as his led tent, granted it is not CMH. In my experience, however, I have not found CMH to be all that much cooler.

The reflector you Listed is open, so I imagine the general room ventilation and cooling to be even higher draw. You could of coarse go to a sealed reflector, just a few more bucks in ducting and reflector cost.

The ballast draw of around 500w could be negated by a higher priced digital ballast designed to work a low frequency that the cmh would need, but then higher initial cost.

Correct, I did not include all the required materials(fans and such) for a full grow, I did initial and over time costs, per light. Adding another bulb or panel doubles the overall and initial costs and would call for more cooling/heating(vis-versa). As you would need to cool a CMH/MH, you'll need to warm an LED panel in the opposite months. So, I did not bother with those calculations. Although, I rated it at 460w(which is rather close to actual usage unless you can post something showing otherwise), I wouldnt doubt SOME ballast may run just under 500w. If you do the math at 500w its still not much more, and the ballast I quoted is modestly priced. So, the posting still stands as a reference, not an end-all. There are so many different setups, from tent to tent and require different elements to keep a stable environment. You can add your specific extra costs as you see fit. I thought of adding the fact exhaust/in-take fans, reptile heaters and such use more power, but figured this is fine as a stand alone rough-draft for comparisons sake. Twice the cooling does not necessarily mean twice the power usage. For instance, I have an Active Air 400CFM exhaust fan which uses 115w to run. Active Air also makes a 165 CFM fan which uses 113w to run. More then 50% increase in CFM at merely 2w more power.

I also rated the LEDs at their full expected life of 50,000 hours, whereas I rated the CMH bulb at 56% life and replaced it. Overall better spectrum provided over those 8 years.(CMH only drop to 80% efficiency at life expectancy)

 

[Karr]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Irish, just switching my bulbs I noticed only slight difference in temp. Its only a 80 or so cu.ft room with about 140cfm of air going through a sealed reflector, in an open reflector I expect the difference to be notable.

9leaf I did say slight discrepancy, nothing major. I don't have a spectra 300(just a 120) so I can't comment on how well it would heat/counter cold temps. Most of my experience is in a basement where ambient temps never fluctuate too far summer or winter. Last week was neg 20s and lowest temp was 59 outside the box.

This is also why I said that fans etc were less universal than wattages. I do know that nearly everyone using a hid light needs more ventilation than those who do not. Mostly they will be air cooled and be in the 100watt range additional power. Unless we begin comparing 600s and 1ks I would risk a bet that if the 300 led room needs to be heated than the 400 CMH will as well, albeit less. Really though both could be solved if proper consideration was spent on insulation(within reason, and only for cold)


He last discrepancy is with electrical cost. I personally pay less than 10c a kw/h which makes my led unit even less advantageous.

I will post a pic tomorrow of my watt reader on my CMH light. using a crappy htg mag ballast.

 

[Nine Leafer]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Irish, just switching my bulbs I noticed only slight difference in temp. Its only a 80 or so cu.ft room with about 140cfm of air going through a sealed reflector, in an open reflector I expect the difference to be notable.

9leaf I did say slight discrepancy, nothing major. I don't have a spectra 300(just a 120) so I can't comment on how well it would heat/counter cold temps. Most of my experience is in a basement where ambient temps never fluctuate too far summer or winter. Last week was neg 20s and lowest temp was 59 outside the box.

This is also why I said that fans etc were less universal than wattages. I do know that nearly everyone using a hid light needs more ventilation than those who do not. Mostly they will be air cooled and be in the 100watt range additional power. Unless we begin comparing 600s and 1ks I would risk a bet that if the 300 led room needs to be heated than the 400 CMH will as well, albeit less. Really though both could be solved if proper consideration was spent on insulation(within reason, and only for cold)


He last discrepancy is with electrical cost. I personally pay less than 10c a kw/h which makes my led unit even less advantageous.

I will post a pic tomorrow of my watt reader on my CMH light. using a crappy htg mag ballast.

Right on, I am interesting in seeing the actual pull of a S51 type ballast. Do you think you would need a heater if you ran LED in your basement? What are your average temps inside your box with the CMH?

I rated the kWh pricing from my local electric company, which is in California. I think its the same rate state-wide, although I could be wrong about that. Edit to your local rate for proper comparison, which is relative.

 

[Propa Gator]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

8 years is a very long-running medicine grow tent. Looking back at successful years of steady harvests?
Who would care about $1000 cost of light, but...

My credit didn't need the crunch to suck. Out of pocket cash rule$
Remote ballast takes AC out of most CMH heat, bare vert avoids the hoods' heat = a push w/ LED.

Comparable results for far less OOPs? Shoe's on the other foot, LEDs grow great weed.
I settle

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Addressing the leaking lite issue. When we put Solar outside by the dining room, never thought about the over the sink kitchen lite.... Now she almost got killed by the chickens,was duct taped together, and never got ferts but once or twice and had a little lite almost everynite... but we got a few buds from her. And they were quite good.

I think the light leaks issue is overblown also, but it makes sense to me that some strains may be more sensitive to it than others.

The informal database is skewed, because you'll hear lots more negative reports of how a minor light leak caused hermaphrodism or screwed up the flowering cycle, than you hear positive reports like yours above.

I'm sure there are plants all over the place being exposed to light at night, but when they finish with fat buds, who's gonna complain, or even know there was ever a "problem".

Solar is a nice name for a plant, no wonder she did you right

Just when I thought this thread was about done we get more great thought provoking ideas.... the gift that keeps on giving! Great posts Nine Leafer.

I learn so much from all the peeps that participate on these journals, not to mention how much fun it is to share a passion with so many interesting and diverse souls.


thanks BD

High SS,

Don't know if you'd be into it, but I'd like to see a 400w Horizontal HID vs a 400w CMH Bare Vertical going for the best yield in similar spaces. Even further, I'd like to see you veg 'em under T5s.

I could do that setup with 250w bulbs, but I'm pretty sure that 400w of direct light is too much for my tents.

I am very much into doing that, but the question I want to answer first is which vertical *bulb* would work best for my needs, and then compare that bulb vertically against another one of the same horizontally to compare vertical to horizontal grow methods.

The first grow isolates the bulb as the variable, the second grow isolates the style as the variable. The two winners would be a logical following grow.

I think it might also be informative if you did the PPP, so you could compare structure and smoke to this last LED grow... all subjectively, of course

I think so too, for a couple of reasons. First, the consistency that using the same strain gives you when comparing other parameters, and second, I love to smoke PPP

You mentioned that you had a 250w digital ballast for a proposed CMH grow. The Philips retro bulbs still have a warning that they might not work with electronic ballasts.

thanks for the heads-up. I was tired and/or high when I wrote that and forgot.

That's my 250w HPS mag ballast driving a 250w CMH over the same two Sunset Kush ladies that I'm finishing in my tent right now.

I just picked up a brand new Philips 250w CMH bulb for vertical orientation, and I have a brand new Hortilux 250w HPS.

This should be a relatively easy comparison to do, but I hope I don't need a welding helmet .

None the less, I'm sure whatever you choose to do and journal will kick us all farther down the path faster

acceleration of learning is good because life's too short and grow cycles too long

I love this conversational way of discussing things and learning, and I love the Internet for providing this feast of information and friendships.

you're welcome PK!

glad you found it helpful

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Sounds like good circulation SS. I wish I could get my temps up for the first time ever. We are going to need to determine how big of an area those ceramic heaters will cover, Irish is using, as well as some others, and soon myself, and possibly even you at some point?

What's your topsoil temp SS?

-Go

I added a 70w heat mat under the window box planter, and it raised the tent's air temp by 2-3 degrees, which was more than I expected, but having the planter resting directly on it raised the soil temp to 90, so I put some spacers between the mat and the planter to bring it down closer to 80. It's running about 82 right now at the bottom of the planter, and 74 on the surface of the soil.

The heat mats are very effective with these planters because they're only 6" tall, so there isn't a large temperature gradient between the bottom and the top. The soil gets warmed much more evenly than in taller planters.

The IR thermometer makes it very easy to take temp readings at different levels on the container and on the soil surface.

I haven't checked the soil temps in the HID tent, but I may add a 70w heat mat in that tent also as the weather has been cold. I'll put the heat mats on timers so that they're only on during the dark cycle.

 

[Karr]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Well in the basement it typically sits at 70 degrees daytime (furnace on mostly) and drops to mid 60s. Summer not really much higher, it's the glory of a cave. The temps are fine. With the bigger 300 I would need some exhaust I imagine as ss's temps and space are very similar.

As for the CMH temps, I usually sit about 85 or less at canopy level which is about 5 inches from my glass.

The part That sucks about the breakdown of price over say 8 years is that this time now is for indoor lighting/growing what the 80s and 90s were for computers. First comes a lot of really high priced crap that barely works. Then comes cheaper,not yet cheap, that works well. Then the flood(in a good way, not the eBay china crap).

LEDs are now vey viable, as we have seen in this thread. There are many levels of florescent lighting (ho, vho, twin tube, inductive, etc). Plasma lights are here now, granted it's a metal halide plasma via the luxim engine. CMH are taking off.

And sulfur plasma (IMO the end all) is so very near mass product that I check monthly.


What do the next 8 years bring and are we being naive to even think that we will be using this technology in even five years?

 

[Nine Leafer]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

The possibility of employing ceramic arc tubes for metal halide lamps is not a new idea - indeed their use was proposed in the earliest patents on metal halide lamps back in the 1960's. Their potential advantages were recognized even at that time, in that they are more resistant than quartz to the corrosive nature of the metal halide salts within the arc tube. In addition they can operate at temperatures beyond which quartz begins to soften. Ceramics thus offer the possibility to increase the loading in the arc tube, bringing about an increase in wall temperature, which in turn increases colour rendering properties and luminous efficacy.

However while the ceramic arc tube itself is more resistant to halide corrosion, the same cannot be said of the end seals where the metal lead wires pass through the ceramic. The end seals must be kept at low enough temperatures to reduce the rate of corrosion, and traditional metals known for ceramic to metal seals cannot be exposed to the halides.

The first practical solution to this problem was developed by Thorn Lighting in England during the early 1980s, and in 1981 that company exhibited the world's first Ceramic Metal Halide lamp at the Hannover World Light Fair. This so-called 'TSH' lamp is illustrated below, and employs electrically conductive cermet caps to close the ends of the arc tube and make a halide-resistant seal. The unique molecular spectrum of the tin chloride dose also resulted in rather good colour properties for its time. But the marketing division did not take the idea further, since this lamp required a special kind ballast that was not available.

The commercial introduction of ceramic lamps had to wait until 1994 when Philips unveiled its 'CDM' range having the 'Protruding Plug' kind of end seal. In this approach the seal is displaced some distance away from the heat of the arc tube, thus bringing its temperature down to safe limits. An ingenious arrangement of different metallic conductors is contained within the seal both to ensure halide resistance and prevent cracking of these delicate seals. All subsequent lamps are based on similar seals.

CMH have been around since the 60's and its just now beginning to get a "buzz". HID's have been around for ages. LED's aren't going anywhere in this "Green Era" we live in today, and I don't mind. I love LED's, just when properly configured and used to their full potential. The problem seems more with companies not understanding LED's, more then LEDs just now evolving enough for use in garden applications. LED's gone in the next 5 years? Highly unlikely. If anything, they will be covering every inch of every parking lot at all major supermarkets and on each and every HPS/MH streetlight for the thousands of miles of freeway out there. I know I see them everywhere. Even 7-11 has badass LED panels above my head while I'm pumping gas,they took out all their HIDs and replaced them with retrofit LED panels! I want one!

People have been growing indoors since the 80s and 90s. That's how we got this far, the internet is fast forwarding the process. Along with the ability to grow legally, things jump forward very fast.

The 8 year time span used, was based of the LED panels lifetime. If you were to cut this back to a one time grow, say 4 month cycle, which would you chose, considering the outcome it terms of quality will be awfully close no matter which you run with?

INVESTING, that's pretty much what it is to me, a $1000 into something, I'd only hope it would last longer than a year.

I remember back in 1998 when a relative of mine got his prescription, here in California(Man, time flies). Although, he is an outdoor grower, he has grown every year since 1998. So, 8 years isn't exactly far off in terms of how long you might use the panel/ballast.

I would love to be able to grow in a basement. That's always been something I thought about since growing outdoors. Since the temperature is so much more constant down-under, you might be able to squeeze in more lighting. Consider yourself lucky!

 

[Karr]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

All I was saying was that were on the cusp of indoor growing technological leaps. CMH has been around for a long time, but correct me if Im wrong, they were pulse start and did not offer the same advantages of the modern retrofit CMH bulbs.

And I honestly don't see LEDs taking over street lights when plasma seems more efficient. For street lighting the luxim mh plasma light draws very little and shows great promise. It does not offer a complete spectrum, lacking some red for us growers, but it's not bad.
Some places today are using sulphur plasma lighting to great effect as it provides a great spectrum of light, but the tech has not quite made it to the affordable consumer market.

I'm not downing LEDs by any means, I'm simply pointing out that by the time any of todays technology has run a full life, its likely to be obsolete. It will still grow well, but there may be much better. I have a glh spectra 120 and am doing what I can to get ahold of a 300.


And the point I was trying to make with computers was that they were also around long before the 80s, but they really took off mid to late 80s early 90s. And thats where we are with indoor grow lighting, on the verge of greatness. I never said this was new, just that this is the time for mass expansion.


To answer your question of which to buy, well I have a 400 CMH and am buying a 300 spectra led. So both really. I love the flexibility of a led unit, and I love the cheapness of old tech magnetic ballasts. Either way I know that inside one year either light will have paid for itself by negating prescription costs, and for the caregivers on here I imagine one harvest would do it.

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Thanks ss. I might be getting that spectra 300 soon, considering keeping my CMH going for a scrogg setup with hempy and oc+. Coco as well. Then under the led I would have my 6 plant rainforest 66, not full though. I need to give hydro another try as my first experience failed horribly.

My biggest problem is the crap load of ionic nuts that iv got left.

The bottle says soil/coco and coco is something almos like hydro, being inert and just suspending eater, so hopefully these nuts will work for my hydro setup.

As this grow demonstrated to me, both LED and HID are viable technologies in my grow room, but if I could only have one light, at this point in time it would be the LED because it really does run significantly cooler than HID of roughly equal wattage, which very much surprised me, because I thought it would be "a watt is a watt", but the 360w LED light seemed to run a lot cooler than just the 40w advantage it had over the 400w HID light.

So for my grow circumstances right now, it makes sense to run the LED's in the summer and the HID's in the winter, when I need the HID's heat to help warm the garage.

It also makes sense for me to use T5's in small cabs to veg with, because T5's help with headroom issues in small grow spaces, and it leaves my bigger tents free to flower plants in.

It's not so much a case of which grow light is best, but rather selecting the right tool for the job at hand, which isn't something static.

 

[Keith Lake]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Some places today are using sulphur plasma lighting to great effect as it provides a great spectrum of light, but the tech has not quite made it to the affordable consumer market.

I've been checking in with Sulpher Plasma for a while now and know there have been a few test grows that hit 1g/watt. One of our old sponsors envirotech lighting had a prototype that was in use during a legal test grow. I had been trying to get a hold of it as a demonstration light to see if maybe Be IRIE or Setting Sun would put it through the paces and see what it could do. No luck though

Need to have a lot of vertical head room though and there's UV-b danger. I'm with you though - let's see what the future holds.

 

[Nine Leafer]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Sulfur Lamps seem very promising, but they are having troubles making it in ANY market.

"The sulfur lamp (also sulphur lamp) is a highly efficient full-spectrum electrodeless lighting system whose light is generated by sulfur plasma that has been excited by microwave radiation. The technology was developed in the early 1990s, but, although it appeared initially to be very promising, sulfur lighting was a commercial failure by the late 1990s. Since 2005, lamps are again being manufactured for commercial use."

"The spectral output peaks at 510 nanometres, imparting a greenish hue to the illuminated environment. The correlated color temperature is about 6,000 kelvins with a CRI of 79."

"Its origins are in microwave discharge light sources used for ultraviolet curing in the semiconductor and printing industries."

So it been revived for 6 years and we are still waiting for this awesome technology. State Counties are less concerned about what spectrum is being provide and more concerned about what CRI is being achieved, since that tells closer to what the Human Eye will see. And, for streetlights that's very important.

Also, I understood your point very well about computers. Although, what I had stated still stands true for your analogy. Much like the 70s and 80s when people didn't know much about computers, and not many people cared enough to learn more about them to improve them. The more people learn about them, the faster they progress. It's just part of the beast called evolution. Same is true for LEDs, most people didn't care to learn about them. Now more and more are seeing the benefits of using these bulbs.

YOU can buy both, apparently you have funds not everyone else has available. If money is no object, and you are underground where heat is not as much of an issue, Why would you only be buying a 300w LED system? There are many LEDs out there that work as good as the one used in this grow. If heat from LEDs is much more manageable, just get a 700w-1000w LED panel. Seems like the more light used the more meds you grow the more money you save? Even by saving money from buying meds, I've always been in the mind set of, if I'm saving money, it doesn't mean I should just throw it out at a faster rate since its then considered "saved funds". Clearly, my post was not intended for someone, much like yourself, that has the funds without worry.

I only posted this as a comparison of the initial costs ONLY for ONE light. If cost is not of importance to you then ignore my postings.

If it wasn't obvious for anyone reading it, that it was intended for initial costs and over time costs. I don't see why it's even valid to bring up the obvious need for other items within your particular grow room which would cost more, depending on what you choose to go with. I'm not trying to talk you into, or out of spending money on LEDs. Seems like most people are missing the point and just arguing against it. I'll keep my findings to myself from now on, when it comes to costs and LED lighting, as its clear they most like won't be taken for what they are worth.

Sure, if you have the money to go buy a 50k Mercedes Benz to get back and forth to work, that's up to you. I for one will get to work, just fine and on time, in my initial-cost-saving commuter vehicle. But, hey that's just me.

 

[Karr]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Im not sure where you picked up funds are no issue, I did mention I was trying to buy a 300, as in trying to save the money. I barrage mike most weeks looking for returns and discounted units. To be honest I really shouldn't buy anything and catch up on some debt, but when I see new tech that works, I tend to lose financial sense.

Initially I was simply pointing out that your math may not be universally acceptable, I did not mean to rustle your feathers or change your motivation to contribution. You have added a lot more helpful and thought provoking information than I have to be sure, I just tend to be critical.


Soniq that would be amazing to get one of the big dogs to review a sulphur plasma unit. While they do have an unusable spike in green the increase across the board is what I'm hoping does the trick.

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I, for one, value both of your contributions and very much appreciate the time and effort you put into the stats you posted, Nine Leafer.

It's impossible to account for and cover every circumstance when stats like that are compiled, but they give us a good general idea of the costs for running each light, and I was surprised at how close they generally are.

I hope both of you continue to contribute and freely express your thoughts and data, because we all benefit from it.

As far as new and emerging lighting technologies go, I think the key thing, at least for me, is to wait to pull the trigger until there's been a significant enough technological leap to make it worth the expense.

That's my reasoned and adult approach to the subject, but I'm passionate about growing *and* technology, so if the new toy is shiny enough..............................

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Thank you for that explanation Ganjananda!

Does PAR light, being outside of the IR range, produce any heat at all?

 

[Marley15]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Just wanted to stop by and say (excuse the language) I fucking love your threads SS! It's free schooling on information I love to learn about.

Nineleafer I agree 100% with SS, all info is important info..please don't stop sharing. Sometimes it's hard to get a feeling for what the other person across the computer screen really means. Stuff gets easily lost in translation, so to speak.

Both Karr and yourself are great new members with good stuff to share.

K that's all for me..harvest this weekend, super stoked!




Marley

 

[go green]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I added a 70w heat mat under the window box planter, and it raised the tent's air temp by 2-3 degrees, which was more than I expected, but having the planter resting directly on it raised the soil temp to 90, so I put some spacers between the mat and the planter to bring it down closer to 80. It's running about 82 right now at the bottom of the planter, and 74 on the surface of the soil.

The heat mats are very effective with these planters because they're only 6" tall, so there isn't a large temperature gradient between the bottom and the top. The soil gets warmed much more evenly than in taller planters.

The IR thermometer makes it very easy to take temp readings at different levels on the container and on the soil surface.

I was looking into heat mats, and have a couple ready tomorrow I believe, so I will know more there, but I am curious about yours.

How large is it? I can see how the temps in the planter box can be raised easier than say the rose bucket (of which I got one of those and they seem perfecto for cloned sog or even 12/12 sog).

I love the IR thermo, I use it all the time.The walls of the area are 32! Ouch!! haha Talk about cold...it's a real struggle as the location is very odd to say the least.

Hope all is well SS. thanks again for your time.

-Go

 

[go green]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

So for my grow circumstances right now, it makes sense to run the LED's in the summer and the HID's in the winter, when I need the HID's heat to help warm the garage.

It also makes sense for me to use T5's in small cabs to veg with, because T5's help with headroom issues in small grow spaces, and it leaves my bigger tents free to flower plants in.

It's not so much a case of which grow light is best, but rather selecting the right tool for the job at hand, which isn't something static.

This is very well said. Very well said indeed.

I am finding the same in my new situation, SS. Static is something, which should never be relied upon. A tough lesson.

Thanks SS. For your contributions.

-Go