Delps 8 Hydro RDWC Gelato Autoflower 2021

[West Hippie]

West Hippie - I upped water temp to 69° and I’m using Hydroguard. Does Hydroguard go bad? It’s the same bottle that I used a few months back.
I’ll check the roots again this AM.

I had one go bad but it turned green inside the jug so l just bought a new one . I think the Z7 does all my work PW turned me on to it and hadn’t looked back . Keeps mine near Snow White .

 

[Delps8]

West Hippie - I think I’ve seen you talking about Z7 and I thought “another nute?” so I’ve been sitting on the fence about it.

[time passes]

It’ll be here in about a week. I hope I’ll be using it on this grow, not on the next.

The HydroGuard liquid is clear, BTW.

 

[West Hippie]

West Hippie - I think I’ve seen you talking about Z7 and I thought “another nute?” so I’ve been sitting on the fence about it.

[time passes]

It’ll be here in about a week. I hope I’ll be using it on this grow, not on the next.

The HydroGuard liquid is clear, BTW.

I want you to keep going save these girls. Can you see if you can rinse some of the nutrients off the roots into a empty bucket. I’ve been through this , mine looked exactly like yours . You’ll see new roots multiply with that off there .

 

[Delps8]

West Hippie :
"I want you to keep going save these girls."
Thank you. I appreciate that.

"Can you see if you can rinse some of the nutrients off the roots into a empty bucket. I’ve been through this , mine looked exactly like yours . You’ll see new roots multiply with that off there ."
I’ll have to do get to that today. It might be too late by tonight…

 

[West Hippie]

It won’t be too late , these girls are going to make it .

 

[cjsbabygirl313]

I'll leave it to the experts to answer this question, but would it be a good idea for @Delps8 to maybe trim off the leaves with the issues so the plant doesnt keep wasting energy trying to repair those and thus diverting energy from good leaves? Also might make it easier to spot NEW problems.

That would be my suggestion - that and start off with a completely fresh nute solution starting around 300 ppm (all added in proper order obviously) and go from there.

Delps8 - on my last grow I had a bunch of leaves looking like that and those were the suggestions given to me. I dealt with terrible ph swings until the plant got older and more established and then they kinda leveled out. Once I followed the instructions given to me I just adjusted the ph daily and did 100% res changes weekly upping the nutes GENTLY each week, continuing balancing ph daily until stuff leveled off on its own (which thankfully it did)

 

[cjsbabygirl313]

Oh, the other thing I did was bump the calmag up 50% beyond recommended dosage; my plant was a calmag PIG

 

[Tokin Roll]

You want to keep your bucket as close to 68 degrees as you can all the time. 69 degrees is fine. If water is aloud to stay over 72 degrees to long root rot may set in.

Have you flushed you bucket lately.

The three things I see is
Nutrient - How old are they?
PH - When was they calibrated last?
Water temps - I often chill my water in the refrigerator. I use 10 ml of Hydro-Guard at change and add 5 ml about 3 or 4 days later. Hydro-Guard only last about 3 or 4 days in solution.

Hope this helps.

Tok...

edit: Do you shake your nutrients and additives up good before use?

 

[Delps8]

I'll leave it to the experts to answer this question, but would it be a good idea for @Delps8 to maybe trim off the leaves with the issues so the plant doesnt keep wasting energy trying to repair those and thus diverting energy from good leaves? Also might make it easier to spot NEW problems.

That would be my suggestion - that and start off with a completely fresh nute solution starting around 300 ppm (all added in proper order obviously) and go from there.

Delps8 - on my last grow I had a bunch of leaves looking like that and those were the suggestions given to me. I dealt with terrible ph swings until the plant got older and more established and then they kinda leveled out. Once I followed the instructions given to me I just adjusted the ph daily and did 100% res changes weekly upping the nutes GENTLY each week, continuing balancing ph daily until stuff leveled off on its own (which thankfully it did)

Some of the leaves have been damaged but there’s still viable tissue in most of them so leaving them on the is a valid approach. There’s no infection, just cells that are no longer able to function.

I’ve swapped out about 6 gallons and the res is at 300 and 6.0.

The only level where this res has been stable was at 310/500 but two plants had CM issues at that concentration. Despite that, that’s about the only “known good” level that I’ve got so that why I dropped it to that level.

My last grow was Gorilla Glue autos and they were at 400/500 PPM at the same stage so I did a res of the same strength. When I saw the issue with the first plant, I dropped it back to 310 thinking it might be nute burn.

In any case, as of a few minutes ago, the res is at 3200 and 6.0. The new bottle of CM is due in today/tonight so I ‘ll swap the res and set it at 310.

 

[Delps8]

Oh, the other thing I did was bump the calmag up 50% beyond recommended dosage; my plant was a calmag PIG

I thought I heard something snorting in the tent! ;-)

Prior to the res swap, I was at 7 ml/gallon vs a recommended 3-5ml/gallon = 50% above the mid point of the recommended range.

 

[Delps8]

You want to keep your bucket as close to 68 degrees as you can all the time. 69 degrees is fine. If water is aloud to stay over 72 degrees to long root rot may set in.

There was a posting about Mg not being taken up at 64.x so I bumped the chiller up by 1°. The Bluelab is reading 70° at the moment because I’ve swapped in 7 gallons of RO but, putting that aside, it’s been sitting at 69°. The Bluelab sensor is at the right end of the res and I’ve routed the intake hose for the chiller to that end. The output from the chiller is on the left side of the res and a sensor at that end reads 68.x. It’s 69.1 at the moment because of the addition of water from the cistern.
Speaking of which - the cistern is clear. I haven’t had any indication of it fouling. It’s lightproof and remains covered.

Have you flushed you bucket lately.

The buckets that I use for are frequently emptied. They do have water in them but, like the cistern, they are always covered. I mix nutes in a 30 gallon trash can. When I’m done mixing a batch, it air dries in the garage and is then stored with the cover on it.

The three things I see is
Nutrient - How old are they?
PH - When was they calibrated last?
Water temps - I often chill my water in the refrigerator. I use 10 ml of Hydro-Guard at change and add 5 ml about 3 or 4 days later. Hydro-Guard only last about 3 or 4 days in solution.

Hope this helps.

Tok...

edit: Do you shake your nutrients and additives up good before use?

I use water bottles to add nutes. Each bottle is shaken as I add the nute to my 4 gallon batch (which I use to determine TDS) and then shaken again when I mix that 28 gallon batch a few minutes later.
The large bottles containing nutes were shaken prior to being decanted into the water bottles.
SilicaBlast and Rhizo Blast are poured from their original container. SilicaBlast leaks when shaken. :-(

The Bluelab monitor and pen are calibrated when their cal lights go on. The most I’ve seen them correct was the monitor when it was 0.1 units off.

Nutes are from the grow this summer. They’re stored indoors, toward the back of the garage. The grow this summer was air conditioned. Prior to this grow, I ordered some new nutes. I’ll use those bottles when I swap the res tonight.

Per West Hippie’s recommendation, I cleaned the roots in a bucket of RO. The roots were wet but not slimy to the touch and the color of the roots was brown at the top of the roots, closest to the net pot, gradually turning to white at the end of the roots. That’s the color change pattern I would expect from staining - the roots that have been in the solution the longest are the darkest.

 

[cjsbabygirl313]

Some of the leaves have been damaged but there’s still viable tissue in most of them so leaving them on the is a valid approach. There’s no infection, just cells that are no longer able to function.

I’ve swapped out about 6 gallons and the res is at 300 and 6.0.

The only level where this res has been stable was at 310/500 but two plants had CM issues at that concentration. Despite that, that’s about the only “known good” level that I’ve got so that why I dropped it to that level.

My last grow was Gorilla Glue autos and they were at 400/500 PPM at the same stage so I did a res of the same strength. When I saw the issue with the first plant, I dropped it back to 310 thinking it might be nute burn.

In any case, as of a few minutes ago, the res is at 3200 and 6.0. The new bottle of CM is due in today/tonight so I ‘ll swap the res and set it at 310.

Before you add your nutes check the ph of the starting water. Then shake each one well, add them in proper order, wait a few minutes before adding the next, and check the ph after EACH addition. My distilled water starts off around 6.8, when I add the call mag the ph drops, then when I add my regular nute (CNS17 Grow)it drops some more. I add the Hydroguard and there’s no change, then I add the +life and still no change; all is good and my ph is now around 5.5 which is the perfect starting point for hydro.

I wait 24 hours and check the ph AGAIN before I put the nuted water in my buckets - and every single time the ph rises overnight … and thats just sitting on my counter! So, I add a few DROPS of ph down (cuz damn that stuff is strong) and check the ph. Add more AS NEEDED until I’m back down to my starting point of 5.5. Only THEN do I add it to my bucket.

And 9 times out of 10, J have to adjust the ph BACK DOWN every stinking day (I WILL let the ph ride until it hits 6.3 and then I dose the water again with a few drops as needed to being her back down.

I have been told that by doing it this way it provides the full range to allow for nutrient uptake in DWC (some nutes are absorbed better at a slightly lower ph, and some are absorbed better at the higher end of the spectrum).

 

[Delps8]

Aha!

I’ve got a Wyze cam aimed at the Bluelab and it’s displaying on my phone and pH is now toggling between 6.0 and 6.1. PPM is steady at 300/500 (I use PPM because EC isn’t sufficiently granular at these levels) but the “jumping” pH is a positive development.

Looking back over the recommendations and the issues, it appears that this is a CalMag issue, the implicit assumption being that it’s a deficiency. Second, pH has clocked between from 5.6 to 6.1 (perhaps it hit 6.2) so we know that the res has been in pH range needed to take up Ca + Mg.

That points to a root zone issue but the res and roots smell clean and the roots do not have any indication of root rot.

Where does that take us?

Based on the above, I’m leaning toward the PPM being too high (that’s why things went to shit last night when I ran the res at 400) and/or my CalMag is “broken".


On a positive note, Winnie was one of the first set of seedlings and she’s noticeably smaller than the others.

[ph up to 6.1 and steady! - then again so was John Kennedy until he flew his plane into the ocean… ]

The picture below is looking down (I guess that’s obvious, eh?) and you can see that the internodal space is tiny at well under 1”. Really amazing for me with my vast experience of having grown all of six plants.

BTW, the hook that’s in the photo is an S hook attached to a fishing sinker. LST is not easy on a res like this - I’m open to suggestions on that, too.

 

[Tokin Roll]

Can you post an images of the whole plant.

Also, you can cut the effected leaves away so we can monitor the progress.

 

[Delps8]

Before you add your nutes check the ph of the starting water. Then shake each one well, add them in proper order, wait a few minutes before adding the next, and check the ph after EACH addition. My distilled water starts off around 6.8, when I add the call mag the ph drops, then when I add my regular nute (CNS17 Grow)it drops some more. I add the Hydroguard and there’s no change, then I add the +life and still no change; all is good and my ph is now around 5.5 which is the perfect starting point for hydro.

I wait 24 hours and check the ph AGAIN before I put the nuted water in my buckets - and every single time the ph rises overnight … and thats just sitting on my counter! So, I add a few DROPS of ph down (cuz damn that stuff is strong) and check the ph. Add more AS NEEDED until I’m back down to my starting point of 5.5. Only THEN do I add it to my bucket.

And 9 times out of 10, J have to adjust the ph BACK DOWN every stinking day (I WILL let the ph ride until it hits 6.3 and then I dose the water again with a few drops as needed to being her back down.

I have been told that by doing it this way it provides the full range to allow for nutrient uptake in DWC (some nutes are absorbed better at a slightly lower ph, and some are absorbed better at the higher end of the spectrum).

My SOP is different that yours, one reason being, perhaps, that I have a 35 gallon res (28 usable). I mix a 4 gallon batch of nutes to determine the TDS then use that to mix the nutes in a 30 gallon trash can. I pump out the res and then pump nutes from the trash can to the res. pH is adjusted, as needed, after the res swap, if needed. I use a Bluelab to monitor PPM, temperature, and pH and have rarely had to adjust pH.

I’ve attached a feed sheet. The one on the left is for the 4 gallon mix, the one on the right is used for the 28 gallon mix. As each nute is added, I retrieve the bottle from the carrier, read and call out the name of the nute, check the name against the feed sheet, and add the required amount until a large syringe. If I’m doing the 4 gallon mix, I put a checkmark next to the nute, the stir the nute mix and sample the TDS at three points, holding the pen still to ensure a valid read. If there’s a difference in the three values, I resample. The TDS is noted on the feed sheet and the syringe, and any beakers that are used are cleaned with RO water. That few CC’s of water is added to the 4 gallon mix.
When the 4 gallon batch is complete, I enter the data in the Excel document and use the values to calculate the feed sheet for 28 gallon batch. The approach is the same as for the 4 gallon mixture except I’m using a 330 GPH pump to add water to the trash can and, since I’m not dealing with 28 gallons of water until the end, I don’t capture TDS.

There are mechanical difference between my approach and yours but, when the last chemical is added, they’re fairly well mixed. I’ve seen a difference in TDS of maybe 30 PPM but, after that has been pumped into the res, I’m pretty certain that everything’s well mixed.

pH rise is expected as nutrients are taken up and allowing it to swing through the range is a good idea.

"I have been told that by doing it this way it provides the full range to allow for nutrient uptake in DWC (some nutes are absorbed better at a slightly lower ph, and some are absorbed better at the higher end of the spectrum)."
That’s correct. There are scads of “nutrient availability charts” and it’s interesting to see that they differ, even though they’re supposedly for hydro though I realize that they’re illustrative.

 

[Delps8]

pH is back to 6.0. This is similar to the pattern that I’ve seen a few times - pH rises (it got to 6.1 for a few minutes) and then it starts to drop. ATM, it’s “dropped” to 6.0 so I really don’t know if it “rose and dropped” but the key point is the trend and it looks like that will take a little while. Bummer that it didn’t stay at 6.1. Who knows it might park its ass at 6.0 and be happy as a clam.

 

[Delps8]

Can you post an images of the whole plant.

Also, you can cut the effected leaves away so we can monitor the progress.

Tokin Roll:
Some of the effected leaves are in the early stages so I can use those to see if the issue is getting worse by comparing today vs yesterday vs day before.

I’ve attached 2 sets of 4 pix, shot left to right Winnie, Mutt, Mary, and Jeff. The first set of images is a plan view, shot between the bars of the light. The second set are plain front view.
In the plan view for Mutt, you’ll that the leaves are a mottled, gray/brown color. Other leaves on the plant have been impacted in that way. That discoloration occurred between yesterday afternoon and this AM.
The images have been slightly retouched - “curves” and “levels” on auto in Photos on OS X.

I’m LST’ing these plants so they’re spread out rather than climbing up. Despite that, they're shorter than I expected but I’ve never grown this strain before.

 

[Delps8]

Happy as a clam, no more.

TDS has bobbled between 290/500 and 300/500 for hours. I left the app open on my phone while I was working and could see it flipping between displaying the two value. It's not that the res is changing its concentration of nutes, rather the pumps are moving the water past the sensor and the water itself has varying levels of nutes. I refer to it as "295" and it's been at that level for 5 hours now so there's no trend.

What has changed is pH. Values shown here:
1220-6.0
1520-6.0
1622-5.9
1829-5.8

I refer to documents as "Wonder Chart" and "Son of Wonder Chart" and I accept them as being valid. Wonder Chart has some "squish" in it because when conditions are falling, static, falling ("FSF") the author discusses TDS levels with two pivot points, one at 1.4 and one at 1.0. Based on those values, the guidance is to lower EC if current Ec is over 1.4 or to raise EC if current EC < 1.0. I've read the thread where the author published this information and there's no mention of autoflowers so I assume that it's based on growing photos so gives me little to work with.

OTOH, Son of WC makes now bones about it. If FSF, swap the res with a lower TDS res. That's the guidance have relied on in the past and I believe it was a mistake to deviate from that guidance.

No CalMag from Amazon yet (it's 1915 and they're saying it will be here by 2200) so I'm going to change plans and will do a res change in the AM. I'm going to go through the standard process tomorrow - a 4 gallon bucket of 100% nutes to determine TDS and then kick out a feed sheet for a reduced strength mixture for the res. There is a variance between the Bluelab monitor and the Bluelab EC pen so I'll have to take that into account when I mix the nutes and when I add the nutes. And that really throws a wrench in my work schedule but that's how it goes sometimes.

Per cjsbabygirl1313, some strains are "Cal Mag pigs" so I'll be ready to add CalMag if the deficiency issue persists.

 

[Rexer]

Hey Delps, sorry this isn't clearing up.

Only thing I could spot:

Autoflowers feeds the same as a photo periods. It's a myth that they feed lighter just by being autos.

 

[cjsbabygirl313]

.Per cjsbabygirl1313, some strains are "Cal Mag pigs" so I'll be ready to add CalMag if the deficiency issue persists.

TBH, at the time my Grow Mentors (who helped bring my babies back from a potential grave) kept telling me “no, no calmag issue, dont add more” - but the issue persisted and for me it was really gut instinct that said they needed it. Within a week of when I added it the issue seemed to get only better from there.

Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do and go with your instinct.