Instantly rising pH

[SamSmith]

I have been playing in hydro for while now. You are getting good information here. The slam dunk solution is to go to RO water but that also brings in other issues with your nutrients as it strips everything out of the water so you have to make sure you add the trace minerals back. If you do this cal-mag is a must to add back in.

I use straight tap as my source now as it is about as good as it gets where I am located. What I have noticed is they vary the buffing that they do at the plants at different times of the year so you have to keep on top of it.

In my source water and using GH PH down I generally use 12-16ml of PH down to 4 1/2 gallons of water. It instantly falls down into the 4's but with overnight agitation (small recirculating pump) it rebounds back up to 5.4-6.0. That seems to break the buffering. I tweak it from there and it usually stays put. I had issues like you are having until I took the time to get the PH stable before adding nutrients in and placing it in the feed bucket.

 

[H20gro]

RO water has remained stable w very weak 350 ppm nute solution. Ppm is remaining steady too, so i suppose i should let her start using nutes before strengthening the solution ????? Or??? Get it up to the 1100 ppm number suggested by my GH feed chart???

What do you guys and gals think? Plant seems to have weakened a bit since recovery from first lockout…. But i suppose it tried again before i got to the RO water.

Go easy w nutes or get the ppm up? Please advise!!

 

[SamSmith]

I would go easy increasing it slightly as you go. Around 500ppm seems to be a sweet spot for good growth in veg without either starving them or burning them up. The 1+EC/1000+ppm of straight nutrients (starting with RO) is a lot. If your lights and other environmentals are not spot on not all plants can take them that high. When I run DWC I am only that high 1300ppm mid to late flowering if the plants let me.

Keep in mind that nutrient companies sell nutrients so they want you to use more.

 

[H20gro]

I would go easy increasing it slightly as you go. Around 500ppm seems to be a sweet spot for good growth in veg without either starving them or burning them up. The 1+EC/1000+ppm of straight nutrients (starting with RO) is a lot. If your lights and other environmentals are not spot on not all plants can take them that high. When I run DWC I am only that high 1300ppm mid to late flowering if the plants let me.

Keep in mind that nutrient companies sell nutrients so they want you to use more.

Im beginning 7th week of flower, thats why im asking.

Also, do you believe that my hard tap water (450 ppm) would work if i followed your advice re: letting it sit without nutes and “buffer”? TIA

 

[OldMedUser]

Im beginning 7th week of flower, thats why im asking.

Also, do you believe that my hard tap water (450 ppm) would work if i followed your advice re: letting it sit without nutes and “buffer”? TIA

Save yourself a lot of grief and use RO water. With water as hard as yours it is very difficult to keep it stable and you're adding a lot of crap to your nutrient mix that keeps it unstable. Not to mention it could be high in minerals detrimental to your plants like sodium, iron, manganese etc. Still within potable water guidelines but too much junk for happy plants.

I did my first DWC grow in '01 starting with Rubbermaid tubs instead of pails. Lots more water in the tank keeps things more stable and I only had to top up and test every 3 days. Using RO water and the older AN nutes I would top up with RO or distilled water first, let it mix from the bubbles for a while then test pH and ppm. I use conc. sulphuric acid for pH down and it would take only 3 - 5 drops to drop it from 6.3 to 5.4 or so and that's in 35 or 50L of sol'n depending if it was a short or tall tub.

About 3 years after AN started the pH Perfect stuff I ran out of my old gallon jugs of 3 - part and got jugs of the newer stuff. Stopped testing pH because you shouldn't try to adjust the pH of those nutes or you lose the benefit of their technology and it screws them up. Made life easier when all I had to do was top up then test ppm. Add small amounts of nutes to boost it back up to my target level and walk away for 3 days.

First I stopped changing nutes at all during veg even when I vegged for long periods while doing DWC Scrogs and spent a few weeks extra tying down grow tips to the screens. Then I waited until after the stretch to change nutes and fed Lucas Formula style with a fresh batch of nutes. Then finally I stopped changing nutes at all from clone to crop and that worked just as well. Changing nutes every week from the start wastes a lot of perfectly good nutes and just makes the companies that make them richer. Same with buying a bunch of expensive supplements that barely make a difference. I use the 3 - part and some Big Bud. Some Rhino Skin for silica but any old CalMag will do and I only ever used that at about 1/4 of the recommended amounts. I'll use some Epsom Salts for extra Mg and S in later flowering and maybe a bit of potassium chloride as they like all 3 near the end.

My tap water comes from a dugout on my property and is 400+ppm and pH 8+ so I've always used RO. Even when we lived in town the first couple of years up here the water is really hard and they used fluoride as well as chloramine in the tap water so I wouldn't even give it to the dog.

Water and nutes are probably 20% of my total costs for growing. Electricity is where the money goes and that's over 30¢/kwh here in northern Alberta so not cheap.

I've been switching over to organics using ProMix HP as my base with added manures, EWC and some Gaia Green stuff to round it out. Not great grows so far but getting better tho tempted to go back to DWC as I found that a lot easier and hydro nutes are a lot cleaner than organics re: heavy metals etc. Believe it or not, dirt is dirty!

 

[SamSmith]

Im beginning 7th week of flower, thats why im asking.

Also, do you believe that my hard tap water (450 ppm) would work if i followed your advice re: letting it sit without nutes and “buffer”? TIA

That is a loaded question not knowing what is in the the 450ppm tap to begin with. Most water departments at least in my state provide a breakdown of what is in it.

My local water source is relatively low 120-160ppm and pretty heavy in the calcium department so it works well once you get things stable.

 

[H20gro]

Ok, so heres where i am today…. Mixed 80/20 Ro/tap water and got pom to 90. Hoping the tap helps buffer the ph down. Added about half a dose of cal/mag. Keeping it lighter bc i added the extra hard tap water. Took about 8ml of ph down to get 5 gallons to 5.8 from 7.8.

7th week of flowering a Grandaddy Purple clone, ive “chain cloned” or “link cloned” for two years. The recent move created water problems so its make or break time w this plant.

Just germinated two skywalker og fems and plan to link clone off of one of em…

Heres hoping RO water will be the answer (w a dash if tap for buffering)!!

 

[Delps8]

First I stopped changing nutes at all during veg even when I vegged for long periods while doing DWC Scrogs and spent a few weeks extra tying down grow tips to the screens. Then I waited until after the stretch to change nutes and fed Lucas Formula style with a fresh batch of nutes. Then finally I stopped changing nutes at all from clone to crop and that worked just as well. Changing nutes every week from the start wastes a lot of perfectly good nutes and just makes the companies that make them richer. Same with buying a bunch of expensive supplements that barely make a difference. I use the 3 - part and some Big Bud. Some Rhino Skin for silica but any old CalMag will do and I only ever used that at about 1/4 of the recommended amounts. I'll use some Epsom Salts for extra Mg and S in later flowering and maybe a bit of potassium chloride as they like all 3 near the end.

Hear, f'ing hear though you there's a spelling mistake in

Same with buying a bunch of expensive supplements that barely make a difference.

When I type "Same with buying a bunch of expensive supplements that barely make a difference.", "barely" is spelled "don't". Must be my keyboard…or something like that. ;-)

 

[Delps8]

To the OP - glad that you got that sorted out.

Hydro is a great way to grow cannabis but, no doubt, pH issues can drive a grower batty.

 

[H20gro]

Just wanted to update… ive stubbornly struggled w the hard tap water issue long enough. For the last two weeks ive been hauling bottled water from the store at .29/gal. It seems to have stopped the lockout issue for now. The lady looks a lil tired and worn but not too far gone. This is grandaddy purple fem clone in week 8 of 12/12 and the ro water seems to be working for now. Thanks for all the help. Enjoy the pics.

Also, i am investing in a hydro logic ro 150 (or 300) to eliminate my trips to the store. Assuming i can get plenty enough at 150/300 gallons per day and it seems like a very simple setup. Anyone have experience w it? Pros/cons? Advice?

 

[H20gro]

@bluter i just re-read your post suggesting the hydrologic. At 150 gallons per day i should be able to get 6 gallons per hour. However, speaking w the company, it sounds like maybe 1 gallon per hour. Maybe i go to the ro300?? Either way itll be better than hauling 5 gallon bottles from store. Thanks again for your help

 

[Delps8]

I've been using the 150 for a couple of years but I've never checked the GPH on it. When I swap my res, I end up emptying about 26 gallons out of my cistern and it fills back up within 6± hours.

My concern with HydroLogic is not their RO unit but with their support. I've run into an issue and have contacted them three times, twice by leaving a message on the phone and once by filling in a form on their help page. They have not contacted me. When I saw your posting, I decided to give them one more try.

I pressed "1" for sales and got a message recommending that I either send and email or leave a message. I chose to leave a message. I recounted their failure to contact me and told them that I will no longer do business with them. I think that's out of my hands because, when you Google, "hydrologic ro" the results page states that they are "permanently closed".

I'm going on the premise that they're out of business and, second, in that they failed to respond to my requests for help, I will no longer do business with them. As I stated in the message, I will gladly share with my advice to not do business with them.

The RO unit has worked well for me - I've had it since 2017 - so if you buy one, I would expect that you get good longevity from the product since there's not much that can go wrong with it. On the other hand, I would look for products from another source because the indications are that the company is no longer in business and there's no indication that the parent company, Hawthorne, is going to revitalize the product line…

[time passes]

I called Hawthorne and here's the story - Hydrologic, as a company, is no more. Don't go to their website - it's a dead end. Stacey, at Hawthorne, said that Hawthorne purchased the inventory from HydroLogic and they are going to continue to sell and support that product line.

 

[H20gro]

I've been using the 150 for a couple of years but I've never checked the GPH on it. When I swap my res, I end up emptying about 26 gallons out of my cistern and it fills back up within 6± hours.

My concern with HydroLogic is not their RO unit but with their support. I've run into an issue and have contacted them three times, twice by leaving a message on the phone and once by filling in a form on their help page. They have not contacted me. When I saw your posting, I decided to give them one more try.

I pressed "1" for sales and got a message recommending that I either send and email or leave a message. I chose to leave a message. I recounted their failure to contact me and told them that I will no longer do business with them. I think that's out of my hands because, when you Google, "hydrologic ro" the results page states that they are "permanently closed".

I'm going on the premise that they're out of business and, second, in that they failed to respond to my requests for help, I will no longer do business with them. As I stated in the message, I will gladly share with my advice to not do business with them.

The RO unit has worked well for me - I've had it since 2017 - so if you buy one, I would expect that you get good longevity from the product since there's not much that can go wrong with it. On the other hand, I would look for products from another source because the indications are that the company is no longer in business and there's no indication that the parent company, Hawthorne, is going to revitalize the product line…

[time passes]

I called Hawthorne and here's the story - Hydrologic, as a company, is no more. Don't go to their website - it's a dead end. Stacey, at Hawthorne, said that Hawthorne purchased the inventory from HydroLogic and they are going to continue to sell and support that product line.

I actually contacted hydrobuilder. I get confused w all the products and websites (and cannabis). They were very willing to discuss the product and how it worked, but i obviously didnt contact hydrologic if theyre now defunct. Either way, i appreciate the info! Looks like thats the way to go vs hauling bottles

 

[Delps8]

I actually contacted hydrobuilder. I get confused w all the products and websites (and cannabis). They were very willing to discuss the product and how it worked, but i onviously didnt contact hydrologic if theyre now defunct. Wither way, i appreciate the info! Looks like thats the way to go vs hauling bottles

Good to hear. Glad that you didn't spin your wheels by contacting Hydrologic.

Looks like thats the way to go vs hauling bottles

No doubt about it!

 

[bluter]

@bluter i just re-read your post suggesting the hydrologic. At 150 gallons per day i should be able to get 6 gallons per hour. However, speaking w the company, it sounds like maybe 1 gallon per hour. Maybe i go to the ro300?? Either way itll be better than hauling 5 gallon bottles from store. Thanks again for your help

you can upgrade the hydrologic by swapping in a higher rated membrane. i have a 100 that runs a faster membrane and get 150 / day out of it. it'll bump your ppm up about 5 or so. not enough to care. mine runs at 7ppm on a 150 and 5 ppm on the 100. you can also swap in a 200 and i think 250s will fit as well.

 

[H20gro]

The plant that started this thread used about 2-3 quarts of water in last 24 hours and ppm went from 455 to 430 overnight (12 hours). Again, in the 8th week since 12/12 (so essentially 6th week of “flower”).

Is there a SIMPLE formula for determining water/nutrient use/uptake? Like, how many ppms used at each stage and daily water consumption… seems ive seen something somewhere about how much h20/nutes a healthy plant should use at different stages (relative to the other).

 

[H20gro]

So, i received my hydrologic ro 150 and it could not have been easier to set up. Took about 2 minutes.

Ppm went from 430 to 32 using 2:1 restrictor, and took about 45 minutes to get 5 gallons.


Now my ladies have good clean water and im not hauling bottles to and fro.

Also having to purchase a carbon filter today for the stank.

lets hope the clean h2o makes this lockout issue a thing of the past.

Happy growing all and thanks again for all the valuable info

 

[Delps8]

The plant that started this thread used about 2-3 quarts of water in last 24 hours and ppm went from 455 to 430 overnight (12 hours). Again, in the 8th week since 12/12 (so essentially 6th week of “flower”).

Those metrics indicate that your plant is taking up water and is consuming nutrients. The graphic below might be helpful. Note - do not take this as gospel. I spend too many hours of my life "chasing pH" because I followed the advice to the letter in this chart.

Where I went completely wrong was following, blindly, the advice about how to deal with a res when pH is falling. It's completely normal for pH to fall in early flower but the WonderChart, as I refer to it, does not take that into account.

Other than that one total cockup, this chart provides good overall guidance.

Is there a SIMPLE formula for determining water/nutrient use/uptake? Like, how many ppms used at each stage and daily water consumption… seems ive seen something somewhere about how much h20/nutes a healthy plant should use at different stages (relative to the other).

In a word, No. There is no "formula" but there are rough percentages that have served growers well over the years.

General rule of thumb is to start seedlings at 25% or 50% of what the manufacturer recommends and then increase for veg and flower. I've grown auto flowers and I start at 25% and ramp up to about EC 1.0 in veg and maxing out at about EC 1.6 in flower.

At max, my the (two) plants in my 2' x 4' tent will take up about 2 gallons/day. That typically occurs in mid to late flower.

There's no "formula", per se, because the nutrient levels for different strains will vary as to nutrient requirements. For my Gorilla Glue grows, I didn't need to add Epsom salt to my Jacks 3-2-1 mix. When I grew Strawberry Pie autos, it looked like they needed Mg so I added the Epsom and the issue appeared to have resolved.

Check out this link and Google for the Bugbee PDF entitled "Nutrient Management in Recirculating Hydroponic Culture" (Bugbee's the lead). The CannaStats site is really helpful and the page on managing a res has helped me fine tune that aspect of my growing process and provides me with the sort of info I was seeking when I posted this question almost two years ago.

Don't get caught up in playing with pretty bottles (bottled fertilizer) in hopes that you'll find the magic elixir that gives your crop <insert what attribute you want to improve>. Researchers believe that the following diagram is correct:

The idea is to provide a grow environment that allows the plant to uptake nutrients that keep the plant in the "sufficiency" zone. Cannabis requires 18 chemicals, some in tiny amounts, in order to reach its maximum genetic potential. I use a simple dry fertilizer to do so and I use the same formulation from seedling to chop.

The nutrients that I use are one of many components of the growing environment and, seeing that all we want to do is provide the plant with "sufficient" levels of those 18 chemicals, I've spent more time learning about grow lighting and how plants react to light than any other aspect of the grow environment. This diagram from one of Bugbee's videos has proven a very helpful in terms of understanding how to improve my grow.

 

[H20gro]

Those metrics indicate that your plant is taking up water and is consuming nutrients. The graphic below might be helpful. Note - do not take this as gospel. I spend too many hours of my life "chasing pH" because I followed the advice to the letter in this chart.

Where I went completely wrong was following, blindly, the advice about how to deal with a res when pH is falling. It's completely normal for pH to fall in early flower but the WonderChart, as I refer to it, does not take that into account.

Other than that one total cockup, this chart provides good overall guidance.

In a word, No. There is no "formula" but there are rough percentages that have served growers well over the years.

General rule of thumb is to start seedlings at 25% or 50% of what the manufacturer recommends and then increase for veg and flower. I've grown auto flowers and I start at 25% and ramp up to about EC 1.0 in veg and maxing out at about EC 1.6 in flower.

At max, my the (two) plants in my 2' x 4' tent will take up about 2 gallons/day. That typically occurs in mid to late flower.

There's no "formula", per se, because the nutrient levels for different strains will vary as to nutrient requirements. For my Gorilla Glue grows, I didn't need to add Epsom salt to my Jacks 3-2-1 mix. When I grew Strawberry Pie autos, it looked like they needed Mg so I added the Epsom and the issue appeared to have resolved.

Check out this link and Google for the Bugbee PDF entitled "Nutrient Management in Recirculating Hydroponic Culture" (Bugbee's the lead). The CannaStats site is really helpful and the page on managing a res has helped me fine tune that aspect of my growing process and provides me with the sort of info I was seeking when I posted this question almost two years ago.

Don't get caught up in playing with pretty bottles (bottled fertilizer) in hopes that you'll find the magic elixir that gives your crop <insert what attribute you want to improve>. Researchers believe that the following diagram is correct:

The idea is to provide a grow environment that allows the plant to uptake nutrients that keep the plant in the "sufficiency" zone. Cannabis requires 18 chemicals, some in tiny amounts, in order to reach its maximum genetic potential. I use a simple dry fertilizer to do so and I use the same formulation from seedling to chop.

The nutrients that I use are one of many components of the growing environment and, seeing that all we want to do is provide the plant with "sufficient" levels of those 18 chemicals, I've spent more time learning about grow lighting and how plants react to light than any other aspect of the grow environment. This diagram from one of Bugbee's videos has proven a very helpful in terms of understanding how to improve my grow.

Thank you. Very good, helpful info here!!!

 

[OGpapa]