PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

[ItsNatural]

re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

Mars has already proven they cant be trusted and have mislead the good people on this site several times over. So I wouldnt trust this chart even if it had all the data points. I would need to see a chart from a trusted member before I pay attention to it. But honestly, it could be the best light in the world for half the price and I still wont be doing business with them ever again.

 

[I like Cheese]

Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Here is a chart showing after 700 ppfd you start to get diminishing returns. And after a 1000ppfd you are killing your girls.

 

[ConstantGreen]

Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Here is a chart showing after 700 ppfd you start to get diminishing returns. And after a 1000ppfd you are killing your girls.

Awesome! Thank you very much for that. Is there a source with more information? The chart is pretty self-explanatory but I'd love to know how they came to those conclusions.

 

[I like Cheese]

Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Awesome! Thank you very much for that. Is there a source with more information? The chart is pretty self-explanatory but I'd love to know how they came to those conclusions.

It was some thing i saw in a Growmau5/ greengene youtube video and stumbled across the graph again on a grow lighting website. So i do not know how to find the original paper.

 

[I like Cheese]

re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

@Versai. I found the youtube video. The graph first comes in at 22:15.

 

[ConstantGreen]

Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Found the original paper too.
Photosynthetic response of Cannabis sativa L. to variations in photosynthetic photon flux densities, temperature and CO2 conditions

 

[ConstantGreen]

re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

SmokeSara, can you please stop posting a dozen pictures of your product in every post? It makes it really annoying to scroll through and has nothing to do with the topic this thread was created to discuss. It's not a question of whether LED's can grow cannabis - we know they can. I'm trying to find a standard to compare the many LED panels. You can't do that honestly through a picture contest that includes so many factors other than the light. Let's focus on the data.

In the PAR chart you posted of the Epistar320, the average PPFD of the 8 data points on the 4x4 box is 175umol. Based on the study that was posted on pg 2, 175umol yields approximately 25% of cannabis' maximum photosynthetic rate. The difference between a 3x3 and 4x4 foot space is 7 square feet. That 7 extra square feet is worth 44% of the total 4x4 footprint.

4x4 box is avg. 175umol, ~25% photosynthetic rate. (44% of the total footprint)
3x3 box is avg. 332umol, ~50% photosynthetic rate. (31% of the total footprint)
2x2 box is avg. 772umol, ~80% photosynthetic rate. (19% of the total footprint)
1x1 box is avg. 1455umol, 1499umol if you count the center reading; ~100% photosynthetic rate. (6% of the total footprint)

The center 1x1 is nearly perfectly at the maximum photosynthetic level. If that was the engineer's target they did a great job. But when is it acceptable for the marketing to stretch that achievement into claims of 3x3 and 4x4 coverages? I personally wouldn't be happy with 75% of my space in a 4x4 producing at less than 50% of the maximum rate. I imagine it also makes watering and co2 injecting more complicated when half of the 4x4 area is photosynthesizing at 25% the rate of the center.

For flowering cannabis you want at least 700umol, so the epistar320 would optimally be used in a 2x2.

 

[Lost In Nugs]

re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

You could report the post and get it deleted. I dont get why she does this inside here. I dont understand a list of things when it comes to mars.

They test light loss, not par loss. Next they say they test par not ppfd. Whuat?? I am not shure how much they actually now about their lights... But i dont trust the 3% loss within 3000 hours or what she said. I dont even used mine much longer and 9 out of 144 LED went out within that time...

 

[Mars Hydro]

re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

I understand that you make a good date for Amare LED,but we are not only focus on the growing result,that's the most things matters,right?
I maybe not as professional as your on figures of data for lights(because of my poor english),so i may not explain it well to you.But our engineer will provide the PPFD to me very soon.
That's why i just use the growing result to show you how the Mars Pro II Epistar 320 can do,it can do as good as Amare LED.
Mars-hydro may not be the best LED grow light,we are always try to provide more better lights.We sold out thousands of lights at each of our international warehouse,and our customers got really impressive result from our lights.

SmokeSara, can you please stop posting a dozen pictures of your product in every post? It makes it really annoying to scroll through and has nothing to do with the topic this thread was created to discuss. It's not a question of whether LED's can grow cannabis - we know they can. I'm trying to find a standard to compare the many LED panels. You can't do that honestly through a picture contest that includes so many factors other than the light. Let's focus on the data.

In the PAR chart you posted of the Epistar320, the average PPFD of the 8 data points on the 4x4 box is 175umol. Based on the study that was posted on pg 2, 175umol yields approximately 25% of cannabis' maximum photosynthetic rate. The difference between a 3x3 and 4x4 foot space is 7 square feet. That 7 extra square feet is worth 44% of the total 4x4 footprint.

4x4 box is avg. 175umol, ~25% photosynthetic rate. (44% of the total footprint)
3x3 box is avg. 332umol, ~50% photosynthetic rate. (31% of the total footprint)
2x2 box is avg. 772umol, ~80% photosynthetic rate. (19% of the total footprint)
1x1 box is avg. 1455umol, 1499umol if you count the center reading; ~100% photosynthetic rate. (6% of the total footprint)

The center 1x1 is nearly perfectly at the maximum photosynthetic level. If that was the engineer's target they did a great job. But when is it acceptable for the marketing to stretch that achievement into claims of 3x3 and 4x4 coverages? I personally wouldn't be happy with 75% of my space in a 4x4 producing at less than 50% of the maximum rate. I imagine it also makes watering and co2 injecting more complicated when half of the 4x4 area is photosynthesizing at 25% the rate of the center.

For flowering cannabis you want at least 700umol, so the epistar320 would optimally be used in a 2x2.

 

[CannaKitty]

PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

I understand that you make a good date for Amare LED,but we are not only focus on the growing result,that's the most things matters,right?::

I understand English is not your first language but this is getting ridiculous. This thread was NEVER a competition. Do you, @SmokeSara, really still not understand? You think this post reflects your product negatively when all it does is provide proper technical data that Your company is too busy advertising to provide. You seem to have made this into a Mars versus Amare thread and whether that is because you can't speak English or because you are ignoring the information provided, I can't tell.

He didn't just 'make a good dat[a]' for the Amare LED, he also provided your customers, you, and your company with 'good dat[a]' for YOUR product and for some reason you continue to ignore that fact.

This was a huge help to me, a Mars2 1200 owner. I was NOT disappointed with the results but rather happy to have a better understanding of how my lamp works. I AM disappointed with your inability to be gracious. I am disappointed with you... and that makes me really not want to buy another product from your company. I started in Feb with a Mars300, now have a Mars2 1200, and was GOING to be purchasing a pro by the Fall but it is you that makes me question that... not the OP's information.. but a company that allows someone so inept and/or rude to represent them.

If you cannot contribute to the conversation, don't participate... it is that simple. Your inability to process simple sentences, understand information, paired with your rude insinuation that the OP was trying to lie about your product, just shows me that you have nothing but some pictures of plants in human skulls... which is really stupid... I don't care whose plants they are... it's stupid.

I'm not going to put a bunch a smiley faces at the end of my post to pretend like what I just said was nice.... that's also another really annoying passive aggressive habit.

Rant over.
Kitty

 

[ItsNatural]

re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

Posting grow results means absolutely nothing. And how I know is because you have posted MY grow results in places. Which will make those people think I was and am happy with my Mars. But what those pictures you posted DONT show is the rudeness that is SARAH/MARS, the cheapness that is their product, and the almost guaranteed fail rate it has. So while a person can get a mars and have a couple successful grow, they are more than likely going to be unhappy in the end.
I havent had my Amare long enough to judge it. But what I can say about them is they didnt come in this thread on the defensive, right off the bat, making accusations and just being plain rude. And from what I have read and heard from other people. They are much more willing to work with you on things. Mars just points to their shitty warranty and tells you to deal with it.

 

[Icemud]

Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

I understand English is not your first language but this is getting ridiculous. This thread was NEVER a competition. Do you, @smokesara, really still not understand? You think this post reflects your product negatively when all it does is provide proper technical data that Your company is too busy advertising to provide. You seem to have made this into a Mars versus Amare thread and whether that is because you can't speak English or because you are ignoring the information provided, I can't tell.

He didn't just 'make a good dat[a]' for the Amare LED, he also provided your customers, you, and your company with 'good dat[a]' for YOUR product and for some reason you continue to ignore that fact.

This was a huge help to me, a Mars2 1200 owner. I was NOT disappointed with the results but rather happy to have a better understanding of how my lamp works. I AM disappointed with your inability to be gracious. I am disappointed with you... and that makes me really not want to buy another product from your company. I started in Feb with a Mars300, now have a Mars2 1200, and was GOING to be purchasing a pro by the Fall but it is you that makes me question that... not the OP's information.. but a company that allows someone so inept and/or rude to represent them.

If you cannot contribute to the conversation, don't participate... it is that simple. Your inability to process simple sentences, understand information, paired with your rude insinuation that the OP was trying to lie about your product, just shows me that you have nothing but some pictures of plants in human skulls... which is really stupid... I don't care whose plants they are... it's stupid.

I'm not going to put a bunch a smiley faces at the end of my post to pretend like what I just said was nice.... that's also another really annoying passive aggressive habit.

Rant over.
Kitty

Kitty, you forgot to drop the mic...

Well said!

 

[Mars Hydro]

re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

I never said this is a competition,but for a grow light,date and information is one part of the important informaiton,for the most things matter isn't the growing result? I am sure everyone want to get a LED grow light to get great growing result.
Because for any dates or figures we can fake it to misleading customers,but the growing result can not fake.
We can provide the PPFD for all of our models gradually,i already asked our factory to send it me.We will provide it to our customer if anyone need.
Like i said before we sold out thousands of lights from each of our international warehouses every month,usually only when people have problems they will come pulbish the reviews of their experience,but most of them whom got great growing results,they usually didn't give any reviews.Also because many place growing still ilegal,they do not want to share anything in public.
And each time when anyone want to contact us ,we offer many different ways to them,so that we can help all our customers as soon as we can,so we sponsored many different forums,they can always find a way to get in touch in with us.They do not need to wait few days or weeks to get reply.
We are on 420magzine since 2013,each time when our customers want to know anything,we will not let them to wait to long time,even in our holidays,we will reply them and try our best to help.
We may not provide the best service,but we are trying to do that.Before not so many customers asked the PPFD dates from us,but now you guys want to check it,so i told our factory,they will provide it to you guys as soon as they can.For the Mars Pro II Epistar320 PPFD,i will publish here within 24 hours to you guys.
Our lights may not be the best,but more and more custoemrs get great result from it.

 

[ItsNatural]

re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

Because for any dates or figures we can fake it to misleading customers,but the growing result can not fake.

Grow results cant be faked???? So you couldnt take 6 good lights and focus them on 3 or 4 plants, grow a good harvest, remove all but 1 light, take pictures and pretend that 1 light did all that? And in those pictures they all had multiple lights growing a handful of plants. Alot of wattage there. But the real question is WHY would Versai fake results??? Why would he take the time to put all those graphs and images together just to fake, and make Mars look Bad? From what Iv seen he doesnt have a vendetta against you or your company. So why would anyone assume hes "faking" results. You KEEP bringing that up like its a possibility to create doubt. And mean while crapping all over the work he has put in. The results to the Amare wasnt what I wanted to see having just bought one but I dont think he faked them. It is what it is. You have hijacked what was a great informative thread, to discredit the information, and promote your product. Its disgusting and hopefully Im not alone in feeling that way.

 

[Lost In Nugs]

Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Sara, honestly, i think it is time for you to report your own posts and let them be removed from this thread. Just the way you do it when someone talks about mars lights in a way you dont want to see in your threads.

You came to a point where you really seem to drag your companies name to dirt. its getting ridiculous and i can see people reading this will be dragged away from future purchases and buy something else from guys that do simple tests for what they claim is awesome.

like this user. It takes time but he has achieved to provide more scientific data about your light then your company is offering us. Why you havent done this if your lights are on par with other lights these days?

I know the answer. Your company lives from the results euphoric people can get from their first 1 or 2 grows before the non horticultural lights you use degrade quickly.

You are not doing up to date par testing because you live from hiding a poor efficiency thats worse than HPS. Thats a fact.

Anyway. Its getting people look for other manufacturers or learn to DIY not because of the (by my own experience) questionable quality of the light but for YOUR attitude. When you arent skilled enough with using the english language you should not hijack a conversation or whatever we should call this on a topic like this. It's just shady and if i have read stuff like this 2 years ago i would have never bought a light from your company. Just manage to get your posts deleted and sneak out quietly to keep the damage you do to your company right now as low as possible. Imho there is nothing more to add about how good results people can get with your lights and how much units you sold... Just stop. Please?

 

[ItsNatural]

Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Sara, honestly, i think it is time for you to report your own posts and let them be removed from this thread. Just the way you do it when someone talks about mars lights in a way you dont want to see in your threads.

You came to a point where you really seem to drag your companies name to dirt. its getting ridiculous and i can see people reading this will be dragged away from future purchases and buy something else from guys that do simple tests for what they claim is awesome.

like this user. It takes time but he has achieved to provide more scientific data about your light then your company is offering us. Why you havent done this if your lights are on par with other lights these days?

I know the answer. Your company lives from the results euphoric people can get from their first 1 or 2 grows before the non horticultural lights you use degrade quickly.

You are not doing up to date par testing because you live from hiding a poor efficiency thats worse than HPS. Thats a fact.

Anyway. Its getting people look for other manufacturers or learn to DIY not because of the (by my own experience) questionable quality of the light but for YOUR attitude. When you arent skilled enough with using the english language you should not hijack a conversation or whatever we should call this on a topic like this. It's just shady and if i have read stuff like this 2 years ago i would have never bought a light from your company. Just manage to get your posts deleted and sneak out quietly to keep the damage you do to your company right now as low as possible. Imho there is nothing more to add about how good results people can get with your lights and how much units you sold... Just stop. Please?

You literally just said everything I and so many others want to say. I honestly dont think it could be articulated any better. I could break your comment down piece by piece to agree and thank you for saying it. But seeing how it feels like it ALL came from my mouth....Ill just say thank you for speaking up. And now that you have said everything I wanted to say, I will exit this thread unfortunately to avoid trouble.

@Versai....I would love to hear anything else you you come across or any other test you run. If you can remember, please hit me with a link to any new threads you start. Peace and Love to all.

 

[ConstantGreen]

Re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for Amare & Mars LEDs

Thanks for the support everyone. I'm also shocked by this rep's responses. Whether because of the language barrier or their company's complacency with grow results, they clearly don't understand the topic. But to be fair, they've never grown a plant in their country, so they have no idea how many other factors go into growing a quality crop besides the lighting. Pictures of other people's grow results is all they have.

At the same time, I expect the engineers that are developing the lamps are taking these measurements and making their own calculations. So there does seem to be a disconnect between the engineers and the marketing/customer service, or an intentional misleading of consumers. But as we've seen with Amare's SE450 coverage recommendations, it's not uncommon for companies to rate lamps for spaces larger than they're supposed to be in. Like Mars, Amare also did not publish a reliable PPFD graph for their lamp.

That's the whole point of this thread is to find the information that we need as growers to grow the best crop possible. We can't depend on other people's pictures and grow logs when it comes to making design and purchasing decisions. It's important to understand the values that cannabis prefers so you can take your own measurements and make informed decisions whether you need more or less light.

It's partly the consumer's fault too. Most growers can get by just fine, as I have, without caring about any of this technical info. Most people just compare watts and coverage and plant count. It's important for new growers and budget growers to have something user-friendly and cheap, and Mars markets toward that. But understand that there is a lot better technology out there and those companies are sharing a lot more information that is needed to take those beginner growers to the next level.

But yea, all that aside, it totally doesn't help the situation to be trying to poke holes in someone's research and deflate the value of knowing a lamp's true output. Again this is not a competition. The comparison does show one panel performing better than the other, which I think is valuable for consumers to know, but PPFD is only one factor in making a lamp purchase. The data more importantly shows the appropriate height and space to use these lamps to maximize their output.

I'll be taking more measurements soon on the Mars Reflector192.

 

[Mayne]

re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

Hey folks, new here, got a question,
I know Lux and lumans and LEDs mean nothing in measuring sense, but what if,

You have 1000 par, but 500 lux? Does it matter that the intensity is so weak? as per Lux measurement? Ive seen Neils vidoes (BlackDiamond) and he talks about 60,000 lux, but at 60,000 lux, what if Par is 1400? For Lux not meaning much, why does a LED light builder talk so much about it?

600 par but 100 lux, would mean what? What could one expect from these hypothetical numbers? Does intensity ( lux) mean penetration force?

What if all flowers are on the surface, and need little penetration because of it?

Brain picking, since par and Lux are worlds apart in the LED Land.

Thanks,

 

[Mars Hydro]

re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

I may not explain in a better way which you guys like,but what i'm trying to say is that our customers have been using our lights for a long time,and they get great results with our lights.And the data is important,but it's only part of the things which we should check when we look a LED grow light.
Here is the PPFD our engineer sent to me.

 

[Gree N]

re: PPFD Measurements & Analysis for LEDs

Thanks for supplying the chart, that is the great customer service people want to see. Would have been A+ if you also thanked the OP for feedback and just posted the chart straight up.