Epsom Salt & Potash: Organic?

[adudecalledjay]

What are your thoughts on epsom salts and potash in an organic grow? Either directly in soil or as a foliar feed. I'm thinking more as remediation for a K or Mg deficiency (having ruled out pH and an overbalance of Calcium, etc. Basically just assume a soil sample comes back proving these deficiencies).

Fortunately for me the question is hypothetical -- just wondering what tools I can have in my organic arsenal

 

[PK]

hey @adudecalledjay
you should read on @Emilya journals. I know she does allot of organic topics and growing.

 

[Emilya Green]

What are your thoughts on epsom salts and potash in an organic grow? Either directly in soil or as a foliar feed. I'm thinking more as remediation for a K or Mg deficiency (having ruled out pH and an overbalance of Calcium, etc. Basically just assume a soil sample comes back proving these deficiencies).

Fortunately for me the question is hypothetical -- just wondering what tools I can have in my organic arsenal

There is nothing wrong with using a little bit of potash and epsom salt when building an organic soil... but it is very important not to add a lot. Mulder did a lot of research into this and found that there are interactions between various minerals in soil, and that by adding too much of one thing you can totally lock out another. This is the main reason that a lot of magnesium in the form of epsom isn't just automatically added to soils in the amounts that the plants are going to need, because this much magnesium in the soil would lock out availability of Potassium and Calcium. Too much Potash in the soil will lock out availability of Calcium, Phosphorus, Nitrogen, Boron and Magnesium.

It sounds like you have already had a problem by adding too much Calcium into your soil, so you have seen the dangers of just adding things in without considering their interactions. Maybe a study of Mulder's chart will help keep you from going down this path again, with other additions. It is best to follow tried and true soil recipes instead of guessing what to add or taking the advice of some "guru" on the internet as to how to build a proper soil.

 

[adudecalledjay]

There is nothing wrong with using a little bit of potash and epsom salt when building an organic soil... but it is very important not to add a lot. Mulder did a lot of research into this and found that there are interactions between various minerals in soil, and that by adding too much of one thing you can totally lock out another. This is the main reason that a lot of magnesium in the form of epsom isn't just automatically added to soils in the amounts that the plants are going to need, because this much magnesium in the soil would lock out availability of Potassium and Calcium. Too much Potash in the soil will lock out availability of Calcium, Phosphorus, Nitrogen, Boron and Magnesium.

It sounds like you have already had a problem by adding too much Calcium into your soil, so you have seen the dangers of just adding things in without considering their interactions. Maybe a study of Mulder's chart will help keep you from going down this path again, with other additions. It is best to follow tried and true soil recipes instead of guessing what to add or taking the advice of some "guru" on the internet as to how to build a proper soil.

Thanks @PK1 and thanks for your thoughts @Emilya and for all that you contribute on the forums -- it's very much appreciated.

I totally hear what you're saying. Fortunately I don't think I'm seeing any deficiencies in my grow yet (some high pH issues for sure -- which I'm at the moment blaming on the 30% coco I used instead of peat; but watering with 6.0pH seems to have fixed that).

My question was a bit more theoretical. Basically I was wondering what soil amendments we have in our organic arsenal should we need a nutrient application that was extremely bioavailable and could even be used in foliar spray as opposed to the slow release amendments. Not saying I recommend people use urine in their grows, but it's a great example of an organic nutrient you could mix in 1:8 or 1:10 and have it extremely bioavailable to the plant on day 1. Try this with blood meal instead (even in a tea) and it takes a lot more time to break down. For P I believe a least a large percentage I could get from making a tea with mineralized phosphate. I'm assuming K I could use kelp meal in a tea -- although I'm not sure what percentage of the K is there up-front. So, basically that was my line of thinking for the macro and micro nutes -- what do I have on hand for "emergencies".

What I think I missed in my line of thinking is that I should be less worried about remediation and more focused on getting it right up front -- and as you pointed out this would be best achieved by using a well-established recipe. Thanks again!

 

[Emilya Green]

You are totally misunderstanding or at least not trusting the organic feeding cycle. If you have a correctly balanced soil with all of the minerals in it needed for the grow, in their raw form, there should be no need to supplement the grow with top feedings, teas or anything else. If the minerals are in there and you have active microbes working in the soil, the plants have everything they need.

A tea's purpose is not to feed the plant... it is to develop the microbes that feed on any particular element, so that THEY can feed the plant. You don't supply these feeds in a tea, you simply supply enough of that particular nutrient so as to enhance that particular set of microbes to grow in the tea... the amount of raw nutrient in available form for the plant in a tea should be minuscule... certainly not enough to feed the plant, all they are in there for is to "seed" the correct microbes to grow.

The backup emergency system you are trying to come up with is going to have to be something else rather than a tea or a foliar. It either should be a complete nutrient system so that when you give up on the organics you can simply start feeding from a bottle, or you need to investigate some other complete systems, such as GeoFlora, which brings in with its "feedings" the raw minerals and the microbes needed to do the feeding, in one ready to apply top dressing that you give once every 2 weeks. Another popular way to do organic grows these days is to purchase or create a supersoil that contains all the needed nutrients in raw form, to put in the bottom third of your containers; and then microbes are brought in regularly via specific recipe compost teas or a premixed microbial infusion such as RealGrower's Recharge, URB or Voodoo Juice. There are many "good" ways to grow organically these days... but winging it by trying to make teas without the right inputs either in the tea or in the soil, is not the way to do it.

Yes, more work on the front end, getting the correct soil mixture and cooking it into a good soil is the key... get it right up front and the rest of the grow should just fall into place. If you want to supplement after that, with finishing nutes or foliars so as to increase the health and strength of your buds, that is fine... but do not consider these extras as part of the regular feeding of these plants. That is all done, organically.

 

[adudecalledjay]

You are totally misunderstanding or at least not trusting the organic feeding cycle. If you have a correctly balanced soil with all of the minerals in it needed for the grow, in their raw form, there should be no need to supplement the grow with top feedings, teas or anything else. If the minerals are in there and you have active microbes working in the soil, the plants have everything they need.

A tea's purpose is not to feed the plant... it is to develop the microbes that feed on any particular element, so that THEY can feed the plant. You don't supply these feeds in a tea, you simply supply enough of that particular nutrient so as to enhance that particular set of microbes to grow in the tea... the amount of raw nutrient in available form for the plant in a tea should be minuscule... certainly not enough to feed the plant, all they are in there for is to "seed" the correct microbes to grow.

The backup emergency system you are trying to come up with is going to have to be something else rather than a tea or a foliar. It either should be a complete nutrient system so that when you give up on the organics you can simply start feeding from a bottle, or you need to investigate some other complete systems, such as GeoFlora, which brings in with its "feedings" the raw minerals and the microbes needed to do the feeding, in one ready to apply top dressing that you give once every 2 weeks. Another popular way to do organic grows these days is to purchase or create a supersoil that contains all the needed nutrients in raw form, to put in the bottom third of your containers; and then microbes are brought in regularly via specific recipe compost teas or a premixed microbial infusion such as RealGrower's Recharge, URB or Voodoo Juice. There are many "good" ways to grow organically these days... but winging it by trying to make teas without the right inputs either in the tea or in the soil, is not the way to do it.

Yes, more work on the front end, getting the correct soil mixture and cooking it into a good soil is the key... get it right up front and the rest of the grow should just fall into place. If you want to supplement after that, with finishing nutes or foliars so as to increase the health and strength of your buds, that is fine... but do not consider these extras as part of the regular feeding of these plants. That is all done, organically.

I'm very new to organics and I'm slowly trying to shift from "the hydro way of thinking" that I'm so accustomed to...i.e., feed the soil not the plant. Once I have a few organic grows under my belt I think I'll gain more knowledge and confidence in the approach. It may just require a few bumps in the road before I get there. Thanks again for your feedback, I sincerely appreciate it.