Grow five, same problem every grow

[SmokingWings]

...but all of my grows show roots at the top of the soil after a while. I cant put a finger in if that makes sense. Its all good though, I just bury them with a few inches of soil so that they dont dry out and have more room to grow up. Always leave a few inches empty at the top of your pot just in case you need to add m ore soil later...

I fill my pots to the top, well, maybe stopping a half inch or so from the rim. There is enough space for the average pour of water and I sometimes come back and pour more on a half hour later during the times when I am trying to super saturate the soil.

It seems like if I leave too much free space at the top I will pour more water on than the soil will absorb slowly so there is the extra that runs out of the drain holes in the pot. That seems to mess with the ideas behind the "how to properly water a potted plant" method.

 

[SmokingWings]

but all of my grows show roots at the top of the soil after a while. I cant put a finger in if that makes sense. Its all good though, I just bury them with a few inches of soil so that they dont dry out and have more room to grow up. Always leave a few inches empty at the top of your pot just in case you need to add m ore soil later...

Side note: there does seem to be a vertical limit to how hight roots grow.... Ive noticed that there is a stopping point even if you add more soil. (In short, they only grow upwards to a point, then like magic stop completely...)

So I've been seeing on my plant these things y'all been talking about throughout the threads. My question is, is it ok when you notice healthy roots finding their way to the top of the soil? Like around the stem? I tend to add soil over them, I just wasn't sure if this is a normal occurrence or if the roots are searching for somewhere to be..

There are what look like little nubbins or bumps that grow on the sides of the main stem. Those are the early stages of new roots and sometimes, if everything is right, they will form regular ol' roots and grow into the soil. Think along the idea of getting roots to start forming on a piece of plant in a glass of water that will become a clone plant if all goes right.

A lot of growers also notice a mat of fine hair like roots growing at the surface, and just below, in the area directly under the canopy. The evolutionary purpose seems to be that the mat allows the plant to quickly absorb water in that area and also that the thick mat prevents the germination of seeds that can produce small plants that would compete for the water and soil nutrients there. Some growers will chop it up the mat and even remove the root mass and some just leave it.

 

[JiggiLotus]

The way I have my fan connected to my filter may be sucking air directly from the cabinet by passing the filter. In other words, I need to seal the Fan to the filter better.. I also have a lock that leaves a big gap, allowing the odor to move from the right side of the cabinet to the left. There is a big gaping hole that can let odor escape. I planned to fix this, but am a Lazy b.

I have a second fan and filter too, but adding it to the top of my grow cabinet will arise too much suspicion.


Yes, I had planned to hire an HVAC guy for a quote to have a fan and vent installed outdoors. My grow cabinet is in a basement and happens to be a few feet from where the Dryer vents go outside. All I need to do is install a fan (like you see in a bathroom) and I'll be ready for stinky strains !!! I really want to grow some OG Kush, a personal favorite.

Problem is, I started veg, got lazy and never got around to calling the HVAC guys or sealing my cabinet properly.

Gawd, so lazy

 

[Ancient Green]

We tend to get fooled by the way the plant's growth changes in the early flowering stage.

In my case I put the plant in the flowering tent and wait about 5 to 7 days for the average one to start showing a tightening up of the growing tips followed by the first pale white stigma/pistils to begin growing. Then in another week or two I might notice that there are no new 5 or 7 finger fan leaves; just a few 3 finger growing out of the buds here and there mixed in with small sugar leaves. Naturally we, as gardeners, seem to figure that all the new growth is just a bunch of buds and some small leaves.

What I feel many of us are missing is that there is just as much new growth, maybe more, as there was during the height of the vegetating stage. Instead of the new being thick stems with large fans leaves it is narrow stems and lots of small green plant parts.

The big thing is that we are missing that all that new flowering stage growth is green. Green sugar leaves and the occasional 3 finger fan leaf, the new stems with the buds, and then there is a lot of new green growth all over the buds. The more buds we see the more green there is and it seems like most of us miss that.

Nice ! So, as I said I had planned to go this entire grow using Dynagrow Foliage Pro, 3-1-2 (lottsa N).... But after seeing deficiencies that appeared to be calcium, P and possible K deficiencies, I started using half Foliage Pro and half Bloom. This keeps plenty of N in my feed.... Come to think of it, I may have been able to simplyt increase Foliage Pro, I may not have been feeding enough. Valuable lesson learned this grow, feed heavy before and during flower, especially at the stretch to mid flower... (you can probably taper off late flower as things slow down?-)

I'm glad you said this, because this is exactly what I was thinking. Flowering produces a TON of leaves and it seems to me that N is needed more than most think. That was my "hunch" anyway. Most advise AGAINST using N in flower, they say it will lessen your harvest. I have to wonder...

Anything green on the flowering plant will need Nitrogen. Nitrogen is not just for growing new leaves during the early stage. Internally in the plant it is needed for the development of the genetic code for the plant, it helps with the movement of nurtients and water from the roots to the top growth. And, it necessary for photosynthesis which is necessary to the life of the plant. In the end, we have to realize that the plant needs more Nitrogen than many growers and even the fertilizing companies had been thinking years ago.

Same sort of thing is happening with the Potassium which is needed for the movement of water and nutrients, has a role in the production and use of carbohydrates and proteins and has a role in photosynthesis. Potassium is needed and used for the overall health of the plant.

Out of curiosity, do you think something like Foliage Pro could handle an entire grow at 3-1-2? Seems pretty balances to me, maybe a bit high in N... (with a little cal mag as needed)

Next grow I'll go for another attempts using Veg (Folikage Pro) for the entire grow with maybe an occasional shot of Bloom. I'll double the feed during flower this go araound to see if the plants are well fead, they definately werent this go around...

Thanks much for all the help, Im amazed at the knowledge of the people here, you all know your stuff. I'm learning !

 

[Ancient Green]

Odor Report: Nirvana Northern Lights Start Week 7 Flower....

OK, you know the plants there. your nose will tell you, no question about it.. BUT its still a very low odor plant. My wife is standing inches from my grow box without noticing and my air filtration methods are questionable. I may make it a few more weeks..

The odor is a sweet honey and slightly acrid smell, similar to the smell of Rose stems... Its very mild smelling, but far from odorless.

I'm out of Nirvana NL beans all, and am looking for a new low odor indica to try... Any ideas?I like them short and bushy as you can see from my pics, no big gangly plants...

Here is my short list...

Nothern Lights again... (maybe #5)

Master Kush (Sensi)

Blue Mystic (Northern Lights X Blueberry)

White Rhino

Carmelicous (MNSL has this in their "low odor section"

C99

Durban Poison (already grown, have a few seeds too) Love it... But not nearly as potent to smoke as NL...(can you tell I;m a big NL fan?

Any others I may be missing?

 

[Wastei]

Nice ! So, as I said I had planned to go this entire grow using Dynagrow Foliage Pro, 3-1-2 (lottsa N).... But after seeing deficiencies that appeared to be calcium, P and possible K deficiencies, I started using half Foliage Pro and half Bloom. This keeps plenty of N in my feed.... Come to think of it, I may have been able to simplyt increase Foliage Pro, I may not have been feeding enough. Valuable lesson learned this grow, feed heavy before and during flower, especially at the stretch to mid flower... (you can probably taper off late flower as things slow down?-)

I'm glad you said this, because this is exactly what I was thinking. Flowering produces a TON of leaves and it seems to me that N is needed more than most think. That was my "hunch" anyway. Most advise AGAINST using N in flower, they say it will lessen your harvest. I have to wonder...


Out of curiosity, do you think something like Foliage Pro could handle an entire grow at 3-1-2? Seems pretty balances to me, maybe a bit high in N... (with a little cal mag as needed)

Next grow I'll go for another attempts using Veg (Folikage Pro) for the entire grow with maybe an occasional shot of Bloom. I'll double the feed during flower this go araound to see if the plants are well fead, they definately werent this go around...

Thanks much for all the help, Im amazed at the knowledge of the people here, you all know your stuff. I'm learning !

Foliage Pro from start to finish is what you need growing in containers. Bloom is not in any way needed. Contrary to what many people believe and manufacturers marketing NPK 3-1-4 is the optimal from start to finish grow Cannabis according to science.

Cannabis is not that different from other crops but marketing makes you believe you need many different products in different ratios to grow proper bud. I only added Pro-tekt, a silicate product and extra Ca/Mg under LED's growing with Dyna Gro in containers.

Dyna Gro is now sold under the name "Superthrive". They've been own by the same company for years.

Cheers!

 

[Ancient Green]

Foliage Pro from start to finish is what you need growing in containers. Bloom is not in any way needed. Contrary to what many people believe and manufacturers marketing NPK 3-1-4 is the optimal from start to finish grow Cannabis according to science.

Cannabis is not that different from other crops but marketing makes you believe you need many different products in different ratios to grow proper bud. I only added Pro-tekt, a silicate product and extra Ca/Mg under LED's growing with Dyna Gro in containers.

Dyna Gro is now sold under the name "Superthrive". They've been own by the same company for years.

Cheers!

OK, yep you and the President of Dynagrow (formerly Dynagrow) say the same thing. Dammit, I just fead a little too much bloom too... His words were, "We only make bloom products because people want them. Its easier to give them what they ask for then to educate them"...

Oddly, I do see a lot of successful growers using bloom, A LOT. So, I'm open minded about it...There seems to be many different directions to go with this hobby, there is no recipe that will work for everything.

Next grow, I'll get back on track with Foliage Pro..I just need to use more of it I think. This grow, I moved to 50/50 for flower, hopefully the excess P doesnt cause problems...I think P is the big nutrient in question, its not really needed in high amounts from what Ive read... (Gardeners talking about abusing plants with too much P--- I listen to what gardeners say, they seem to be more immune to "bro science" sillyness....

 

[JiggiLotus]

OK, yep you and the President of Dynagrow (formerly Dynagrow) say the same thing. Dammit, I just fead a little too much bloom too... His exact words were, We only make bloom products because people want them. Its easier to give them what they ask for then to educate them...

Oddly, I do see a lot of successful growers using bloom, A LOT. So, I'm open minded about it...

Next grow, I'll get back on track with Foliage Pro..I just need to use more of it I think.

I've been seeing a lot of good stuff n chats about the dynagrow, might have to check it out as well. Doesn't hurt to try new things

 

[Ancient Green]

Thanks for all the help and time writing back to me all... I promise to pay you back helping others once I get myself together, I'm not quite there yet !

 

[Ancient Green]

I've been seeing a lot of good stuff n chats about the dynagrow, might have to check it out as well. Doesn't hurt to try new things

Its so cheap too ! One little bottle has lasted me 4 grows now ( $11) and I've used less than 1/4 bottle.

I do use Protekt as well, its great for raising PH to compensate for nutrients. Most nutrrients lower PH, Protekt balances it out perfectly without the need for PH up or Down which I dont like using.... Who knows if the silica helps, but its a great PH balancer.

 

[SmokingWings]

I'm glad you said this, because this is exactly what I was thinking. Flowering produces a TON of leaves and it seems to me that N is needed more than most think. That was my "hunch" anyway. Most advise AGAINST using N in flower, they say it will lessen your harvest. I have to wonder...

The idea that excess Nitrogen is not good is something that relates to the type of plant and why it is being grown.

Yes, to much N tends to produce more leaf growth and faster growth. If we are growing apple trees we want a balance between the number of flowers and the harvest. If excess N causes the apple tree to produce more leaves then the tree will be sending the basic sugars to both leaves and the fruit so we end up with smaller and fewer fruit. Same sort of thing if we are growing tomatoes. When the tomato is maturing we want the plant to be sending the sugars to the fruit and not trying to support a new branch or stem. Same sort of thing if we are growing flowers for their pretty colors.

When it comes to growing Marijuana I figure that most of us are going after the trichomes and those thrichomes are growing on....the green parts of the flower. It makes sense to me that we want to be supporting that green growth and if it takes a bit more Nitrogen then we should be adding that bit more.

 

[Keffka]

The idea that excess Nitrogen is not good is something that relates to the type of plant and why it is being grown.

Yes, to much N tends to produce more leaf growth and faster growth. If we are growing apple trees we want a balance between the number of flowers and the harvest. If excess N causes the apple tree to produce more leaves then the tree will be sending the basic sugars to both leaves and the fruit so we end up with smaller and fewer fruit. Same sort of thing if we are growing tomatoes. When the tomato is maturing we want the plant to be sending the sugars to the fruit and not trying to support a new branch or stem. Same sort of thing if we are growing flowers for their pretty colors.

When it comes to growing Marijuana I figure that most of us are going after the trichomes and those thrichomes are growing on....the green parts of the flower. It makes sense to me that we want to support that green growth and if it takes a bit more Nitrogen then we should be adding that bit more.

I’ve covered this in my last 2 journals. I keep N pretty high in the grow the entire time. The amount of green, veg growth that occurs in flower is almost the same amount, if not more, than the growth put on during veg. If you look at a bud while it’s building, it’s around 95% green vegetative growth. Not only does the plant keep growing green veg growth during flower, my microbes need N to be able to populate and do their job. So between the microbes and plant matter, N levels don’t get cut at all.

To be fair, I grow organically, so I can keep high nutrient levels without adversely affecting the plant, and it will only take what it needs. However, it never fails that the plant (and microbes) take(s) almost all of the available N from the mix.

 

[SmokingWings]

To be fair, I grow organically, so I can keep high nutrient levels without adversely affecting the plant, and it will only take what it needs. However, it never fails that the plant (and microbes) take(s) almost all of the available N from the mix.

Lately I have start to believe that the plant will take up any available nutrient even if it does not need it. If the plant is taking in water molecules and there is extra XYZ nutrient molecules attached to the water or in the way then the plant roots takes both and sorts it out by the time those molecules get to the leaves.

The plant will take in air molecules and will give off air molecules through the stomata. They will give off water molecules through the leaves but lately I have been reading that they do not take in as much water though the leaves as growers or farmers have been thinking.

The plant takes in everything it finds and can fit through the openings in the roots, stems or leaves whether it needs it or not. Under normal growing conditions the plant controls what is available. It will produce the exudates through the root system that tell the micro-organisms what it needs and those organisms will start eating the raw materials, reproducing, excreting and eventually dying and decomposing. The system worked great for millions of years. Then people started walking upright and grunting at each other and thought they could improve on what had already evolved.

It is kinda complicated and I have been kicking around ideas for awhile now. When I see certain msgs my thoughts kick in and I start to attempt the explanation.

 

[Keffka]

Lately I have start to believe that the plant will take up any available nutrient even if it does not need it. If the plant is taking in water molecules and there is extra XYZ nutrient molecules attached to the water or in the way then the plant roots takes both and sorts it out by the time those molecules get to the leaves.

The plant will take in air molecules and will give off air molecules through the stomata. They will give off water molecules through the leaves but lately I have been reading that they do not take in as much water though the leaves as growers or farmers have been thinking.

The plant takes in everything it finds and can fit through the openings in the roots, stems or leaves whether it needs it or not. Under normal growing conditions the plant controls what is available. It will produce the exudates through the root system that tell the micro-organisms what it needs and those organisms will start eating the raw materials, reproducing, excreting and eventually dying and decomposing. The system worked great for millions of years. Then people started walking upright and grunting at each other and thought they could improve on what had already evolved.

It is kinda complicated and I have been kicking around ideas for awhile now. When I see certain msgs my thoughts kick in and I start to attempt the explanation.

I can follow that logic. It would also explain why organic produces a more complex flower profile whereas other styles seem to produce much more homogeneous and harsh buds. Just like with fruits and veggies.

I’ve always viewed synthetic styles as basically force feeding a plant. When you make every nutrient highly available the plant will just take it, because life isn’t going to turn down free food. When you do that as a human it destroys your health and wellbeing, and if we were eaten, it’d likely make us terrible tasting lol.

 

[Ancient Green]

The idea that excess Nitrogen is not good is something that relates to the type of plant and why it is being grown.

Yes, to much N tends to produce more leaf growth and faster growth. If we are growing apple trees we want a balance between the number of flowers and the harvest. If excess N causes the apple tree to produce more leaves then the tree will be sending the basic sugars to both leaves and the fruit so we end up with smaller and fewer fruit. Same sort of thing if we are growing tomatoes. When the tomato is maturing we want the plant to be sending the sugars to the fruit and not trying to support a new branch or stem. Same sort of thing if we are growing flowers for their pretty colors.

The way you worded this explains this perfectly. So, after I read this I started thinking that "too much N" would swing the pendulum to the leaf (green side) and reduce flower. But then as any great author would do, you added a twist to the plotline below....

When it comes to growing Marijuana I figure that most of us are going after the trichomes and those thrichomes are growing on....the green parts of the flower. It makes sense to me that we want to be supporting that green growth and if it takes a bit more Nitrogen then we should be adding that bit more.

Tricomes are on the green part of the flower... Yes to N ! Nicely said man, dam I feel like I owe you guys your services. It really feels as though many here are at the cutting edge of this hobby.

I'm blown away.

 

[Ancient Green]

I'm wondering if someone can double check my feeding quantities just to see if I may be way off...

I'm in flower now week 7.5 I've been feeding every watering now, which is twice per week. 3 Gallons of Coco/Soil and a 1/2 gallon water without runoff--- 3/4 gallon gives runoff of a little under 1/4 gallon. It seems the coco holds too much water, and I may be overwatering but I really want runoff so, this is a bit of a weird situation. I wont use Coco again, but thats another story.. Let me stop blabbing on and on... Here is what I'm giving now...

1/2- 3/4 gallons of water--1/2 tsp Dyna Grow Foliage pro, 1/2 tsp Bloom, 1/8 tsp, Protekt, and Cal mag as needed... I'm using RO water mixed half/half with tap water, around 150 PPM's without nutrients. At feed time, I'm feeding at around 500 (minus the 150 for the water)... Which seems low? The PPM numbers on my Dynagrow chart show 800 PPM's feed, maybe my cheap meter is off? So at around 300-350 PPM's of nutrients, I thought feeding every watering would be ok...(with an occasinal plain watering maybe every three waterings)....

Im also not watering to runoff anymore and using less water. I suspect overwatering due to the Coco sponge syndrome I'm having. Next grow I go with Fox Farm light warrior or something else with high drainage. Pro Mix maybe? I want to water heavily to runoff next grow without bogging down the plant. I may also try rice hulls and more perlite.

And lastly, Ive checked feed PPM's at around 500 against runoff. Runoff is lower, aroound 300 PPM's which leads me to believe coco is holding salts. (filtering them like a water filter) Dam this is complicated, but that might just be me..

 

[Roy Growin]

70/30 coco/perlite is ideal
Ferget ppm ec stuff
Measure nutes in ml/L and don't worry about it
Job done

 

[Wastei]

I'm wondering if someone can double check my feeding quantities just to see if I may be way off...

I'm in flower now week 7.5 I've been feeding every watering now, which is twice per week. 3 Gallons of Coco/Soil and a 1/2 gallon water without runoff--- 3/4 gallon gives runoff of a little under 1/4 gallon. It seems the coco holds too much water, and I may be overwatering but I really want runoff so, this is a bit of a weird situation. I wont use Coco again, but thats another story.. Let me stop blabbing on and on... Here is what I'm giving now...

1/2- 3/4 gallons of water--1/2 tsp Dyna Grow Foliage pro, 1/2 tsp Bloom, 1/8 tsp, Protekt, and Cal mag as needed... I'm using RO water mixed half/half with tap water, around 150 PPM's without nutrients. At feed time, I'm feeding at around 500 (minus the 150 for the water)... Which seems low? The PPM numbers on my Dynagrow chart show 800 PPM's feed, maybe my cheap meter is off? So at around 300-350 PPM's of nutrients, I thought feeding every watering would be ok...(with an occasinal plain watering maybe every three waterings)....

Im also not watering to runoff anymore and using less water. I suspect overwatering due to the Coco sponge syndrome I'm having. Next grow I go with Fox Farm light warrior or something else with high drainage. Pro Mix maybe? I want to water heavily to runoff next grow without bogging down the plant. I may also try rice hulls and more perlite.

And lastly, Ive checked feed PPM's at around 500 against runoff. Runoff is lower, aroound 300 PPM's which leads me to believe coco is holding salts. (filtering them like a water filter) Dam this is complicated, but that might just be me..

Coco coir should be fed several times daily to runoff for optimal growth. You're treating hydro/soilless grown plants like soil grown plants hence all the problems. It's practically impossible to over water coir since it holds 22% dissolved oxygen by volume at full saturation.

If runoff is lower than input you're not feeding frequently enough and the medium takes all the buffers out of the solution, these need to be replenished daily for optimal growth. Your output(runoff) should ideally be 150ppm / 0.3 EC above your input.

 

[Ancient Green]

Coco coir should be fed several times daily to runoff for optimal growth. You're treating hydro/soilless grown plants like soil grown plants hence all the problems. It's practically impossible to over water coir since it holds 22% dissolved oxygen by volume at full saturation.

OK, this helps explain my confusion. I guess I'm still not sure if I'm growing in coco or soil, I have no idea what ration of soil to coco is used here. (Coco Loco). I am simply following the Fox Farm instructions to treat this as soil, not a coco product. They say it needs watering LESS often than soil due to the Coco holding water... This is Fox Farms advice, not mine.

If runoff is lower than input you're not feeding frequently enough and the medium takes all the buffers out of the solution, these need to be replenished daily for optimal growth. Your output(runoff) should ideally be 150ppm / 0.3 EC above your input.

Thanks, it sounds like my runoff isnt too far off from your numbers, Ive seen low numbers in 200's from the runoff. I'll be honest, this is actually confusing the hell out of me and I'm getting further away from figuring it out than when I started.

I think I'll simplify and move back to pure soil next grow. I was hoping a little taste of Coco might help, but its only adding complication...

 

[Ancient Green]

70/30 coco/perlite is ideal
Ferget ppm ec stuff
Measure nutes in ml/L and don't worry about it
Job done

I thought a PPM meter might be useful to match my feed against recommended feed charts. I think you may be right though, it doesnt seem to help much.

So, I'm just making sure that I'm "in the ball park" at this point. I am finding that my PPM numbers are a little off from something like the chart below. I'm also not sure if they are talking about PPM's in the feed or the soil..

Coco probably wont work for me if it requires daily waterings. I'm regretting Coco Loco and wish I had stuck with Happy Frog...

Here is an example. I thought it might help to watch feed PPM's and runoff until my feeding skills improve. (Note I am not using this chart-- I have quite a few from dynagrow and from growers. This one seems a bit aggressive in the feed totals.)