Grow five, same problem every grow

[Keffka]

Agreed with @Roy Growin

Watching runoff and measuring EC and all that is overkill if you’re using a nutrient line. Follow the directions and you will find success. They have spent a lot of money, time, and effort to figure out how to provide you with a product that is very simple to use and produces results that make you want to come back for more.

All the extra stuff is for people who use their own custom nutrients, and people who are still stuck in the era of using non cannabis nutrients. Today, these products are specifically formulated and balanced for cannabis, making it as simple as adding your nutrients and shaking.

 

[SmokingWings]

...so I can keep high nutrient levels without adversely affecting the plant, and it will only take what it needs.

Maybe in a more perfect universe but we don't live in one.. If a lawn, flower or vegetable garden is fertilized with more high N fertilizer than recommended and the plant only takes what it needed there should be no signs of 'burn'. But, too much N and the plant burns because along with the N came the salt ions, the ammonium molecules and all the other stuff the plant does not need.

And there are other molecules that plants have no need for and yet they absorb them along with the water. The best example is heavy metals. Plants take in these metals and there is no reason for it. How does the plant get rid of excess nutrients or these metals or anything else it does not need? It can't.

Seems like the plant will store these unwanted or unneeded minerals, metals, excess nutrients that it cannot use in the leaves. The same leaves that are called the warehouse for needed nutrients. The same leaves the plant goes to so it can get the macro nutrients it needs later when it is in full flowering.

I have been kicking this around for weeks and the only answer so far that the plant keeps them because evolution did not provide a way to get rid of the stuff. It can take in water and anything else that was dissolved through the roots but it is a one way entry. The plant can move what it absorbs from the roots to the top growth and back down to the root system. But, roots are not built in a way that what is not needed can exit through any openings.

The plant can translocate water and dissolved minerals, metals, etc from the roots to the leaves through the vascular system but the stomata found on the underside of the leaf are built in such a way that they are the most efficient way to get rid of water and air molecules. And, they are good at taking in air molecules such as carbon dioxide and oxygen depending on the time of day. The stomata will get rid of water molecules but they are not as good at absorbing water into the plant--that is the job of the roots. But that seems to be the limit. The stomata will not allow excess nutrients, etc, to escape.

Yes, a foliar feed will help a plant when some of it is absorbed through the stomata. It is not as efficient as using the same feeding water and pouring it on the soil or the soil-less medium the roots are growing in.

 

[Keffka]

Maybe in a more perfect universe but we don't live in one.. If a lawn, flower or vegetable garden is fertilized with more high N fertilizer than recommended and the plant only takes what it needed there should be no signs of 'burn'. But, too much N and the plant burns because along with the N came the salt ions, the ammonium molecules and all the other stuff the plant does not need.

And there are other molecules that plants have no need for and yet they absorb them along with the water. The best example is heavy metals. Plants take in these metals and there is no reason for it. How does the plant get rid of excess nutrients or these metals or anything else it does not need? It can't.

Seems like the plant will store these unwanted or unneeded minerals, metals, excess nutrients that it cannot use in the leaves. The same leaves that are called the warehouse for needed nutrients. The same leaves the plant goes to so it can get the macro nutrients it needs later when it is in full flowering.

I have been kicking this around for weeks and the only answer so far that the plant keeps them because evolution did not provide a way to get rid of the stuff. It can take in water and anything else that was dissolved through the roots but it is a one way entry. The plant can move what it absorbs from the roots to the top growth and back down to the root system. But, roots are not built in a way that what is not needed can exit through any openings.

The plant can translocate water and dissolved minerals, metals, etc from the roots to the leaves through the vascular system but the stomata found on the underside of the leaf are built in such a way that they are the most efficient way to get rid of water and air molecules. And, they are good at taking in air molecules such as carbon dioxide and oxygen depending on the time of day. The stomata will get rid of water molecules but they are not as good at absorbing water into the plant--that is the job of the roots. But that seems to be the limit. The stomata will not allow excess nutrients, etc, to escape.

Yes, a foliar feed will help a plant when some of it is absorbed through the stomata. It is not as efficient as using the same feeding water and pouring it on the soil or the soil-less medium the roots are growing in.

The proof you’re looking for to prove out your logic can be found in phytoremediation. The class you’re looking for is hyperaccumulators. Cannabis is a hyperaccumulator.

So yes, your theory is correct. It may take a little refinement as to the 5Ws of it since not all plants are hyperaccumulators. It also proves out my theory that cannabis evolved for balancing the earth. It’s believed that plants that evolved for defenses against herbivores make great hyperaccumulators, which makes sense, because it’s likely a matter of pulling in so much extra crap, you taste like crap to an herbivore. So almost exactly what I was talking about with the force feeding making plants (and meat) taste like crap.

Here’s a link that covers it a bit more:

In Phytoremediation, Plants Extract Toxins from Soils - JSTOR Daily

Researchers have a cheap, easy way for cleaning up oil spills: letting plants do the work. Why isn’t it used more often?

daily.jstor.org

And a link that talks about cannabis being a hyperaccumulator:

Untested, Unsafe? Cannabis Users Show Higher Lead and Cadmium Levels

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And now we get to where I explain why it’s important to have good quality amendments and know what’s going on in your soil. You can avoid having cannabis take up nutrients and pollution you don’t want by ensuring the soil you use is balanced, and healthy, with good quality organic matter

This also means those using synthetics are really depending on the companies having clean inputs, which is likely what separates the different lines

 

[Wastei]

Agreed with @Roy Growin

Watching runoff and measuring EC and all that is overkill if you’re using a nutrient line. Follow the directions and you will find success. They have spent a lot of money, time, and effort to figure out how to provide you with a product that is very simple to use and produces results that make you want to come back for more.

All the extra stuff is for people who use their own custom nutrients, and people who are still stuck in the era of using non cannabis nutrients. Today, these products are specifically formulated and balanced for cannabis, making it as simple as adding your nutrients and shaking.

You mean there's a difference in the source materials and minerals used in a Cannabis specific marketed nutrient line compared to traditional formulas? They all use the same source materials in different ratios so saying a Cannabis specific marketed nutrient line is better without stating what's actually in it is not very wise in my book?

There's many Cannabis specific nutrient lines that are not in any way optimal for growing Cannabis? That's marketing, they market and put out what the customers want, not what the customers need.

 

[Keffka]

You mean there's a difference in the source materials and minerals used in a Cannabis specific marketed nutrient line compared to traditional formulas? They all use the same source materials in different ratios so saying a Cannabis specific marketed nutrient line is better without stating what's actually in it is not very wise in my book?

There's many Cannabis specific nutrient lines that are not in any way optimal for growing Cannabis? That's marketing, they market and put out what the customers want, not what the customers need.

I didn’t say “better” or “optimal”, I said success. If we’re being semantical about it, following the directions and achieving a harvest with little to no issue is much “better” and more “optimal” than chasing your tail endlessly and running into issue after issue just to be left with a low quality, subpar yield, in my opinion.

The point I was illustrating is that all the measurements are unnecessary when utilizing nutrient lines. If you want to overcomplicate things for yourself that is fine, but when a grower is continually struggling, adding extra steps and requirements isn’t going to help at all

 

[Wastei]

I didn’t say “better” or “optimal”, I said success. If we’re being semantical about it, following the directions and achieving a harvest with little to no issue is much “better” and more “optimal” than chasing your tail endlessly and running into issue after issue just to be left with a low quality, subpar yield, in my opinion.

The point I was illustrating is that all the measurements are unnecessary when utilizing nutrient lines. If you want to overcomplicate things for yourself that is fine, but when a grower is continually struggling, adding extra steps and requirements isn’t going to help at all

How would someone follow recommendations if we're not using the same standard unit of measuring nutrient concentration? How do you properly share your data to other growers?

As an example it's impossible to know if you have hard water or not without taking measures for water quality. You mean it's better to wing it instead of sharing data and troubleshooting with experienced growers on here?

Most recommendations from nutrient manufacturers are on the higher side and I would personally fry my plants to bits following recommendations on the back of the bottles.

 

[Keffka]

How would someone follow recommendations if we're not using the same standard unit of measuring nutrient concentration? How do you properly share your data to other growers?

What are you talking about? You look at the bottle or the feed chart and you follow the directions. You’re already overcomplicating this.

As an example it's impossible to know if you have hard water or not without taking measures for water quality. You mean it's better to wing it instead of sharing data and troubleshooting with experienced growers on here?

Again, overcomplicating. There are hundreds of growers here who use a variety of water sources with little to no issue. There are literally millions who use their tap water to grow plants every day, successfully. If you’re THAT concerned about it, get a water report, or a filter.

Most recommendations from nutrient manufacturers are on the higher side and I would personally fry my plants to bits following recommendations on the back of the bottles.

You’re overcomplicating growing plants. It’s one of the most common things I see. They’ve done this on their own for millions of years. There’s no need for all the extra stuff to successfully grow plants. I’ve never measured ph or runoff or ec or any of that and I grow flawless, gorgeous plants. @Roy Growin also grows some of the best looking plants I’ve ever seen and he’ll also tell you, you’re overcomplicating it.

In contrast, I see people measuring all kinds of stuff and they grow sickly, horrific looking plants that they spend the entire grow tinkering with just to be left with subpar product and a defeated feeling.

When we inquire as to what is going on, Almost every single time the response is along the lines of: “I read on the internet not to use full strength” or “someone told me not to use as directed” “ive been measuring ph, ec, runoff and I can’t seem to get it right”

Whereas every time I’ve fed as directed without measuring a single thing, there are zero issues. So while you say the directions will fry your plants I say that has never happened to me or any of the people I’ve learned from. Perhaps your measuring devices are uncalibrated, or maybe you misread the directions or maybe your line isn’t very suited to cannabis.

As I said in the beginning, all of this overcomplicating is fine when you already have the foundations and can grow with no issues. However, if you’re struggling to grow plants without issues, adding extra steps and requirements doesn’t help at all.

 

[Keffka]

Ok I got baked and looked at this a different way.

I understand what you’re trying to say @Wastei about sharing info, etc. however I feel like you’re not understanding me.

You don’t need to do all of the extra stuff to grow plants. You just don’t. This isn’t an argument, it’s a fact. There’s millions of people who never come on a forum, or document their grow, or share anything, yet they successfully grow harvests consistently.

They don’t do anything special, they don’t measure anything beyond how many mls go into a liter or tsp into a gallon of their tap or hose water. People like my MIL, my aunts, tons of my customers. They all grow successfully, with quality product and yields of everything from cannabis, to veggies and fruits. The number one piece of advice they all give is, don’t overthink it. That is the point I am trying to make. You don’t need to do anything more than read a label, and that’s where you should start before delving into learning and applying extra measurements if you’re struggling with growing plants. Start simple and work up.

 

[Wastei]

Ok I got baked and looked at this a different way.

I understand what you’re trying to say @Wastei about sharing info, etc. however I feel like you’re not understanding me.

You don’t need to do all of the extra stuff to grow plants. You just don’t. This isn’t an argument, it’s a fact. There’s millions of people who never come on a forum, or document their grow, or share anything, yet they successfully grow harvests consistently.

They don’t do anything special, they don’t measure anything beyond how many mls go into a liter or tsp into a gallon of their tap or hose water. People like my MIL, my aunts, tons of my customers. They all grow successfully, with quality product and yields of everything from cannabis, to veggies and fruits. The number one piece of advice they all give is, don’t overthink it. That is the point I am trying to make. You don’t need to do anything more than read a label, and that’s where you should start before delving into learning and applying extra measurements if you’re struggling with growing plants. Start simple and work up.

It works for sure and it's better to keep things simple and there's many different ways to the finish line.

But we're on a Cannabis growers forum and for troubleshooting and better possibility to help we all need to follow the same standard of measure. Otherwise my help might help some people and make the situation worse for others. What works in my situation might not work in your situation and environment.

To better understand what's going on you need as many points of reference as possible but I get your point of view. People treat this plant like it's something very special when it's just another plant that needs a balanced food from start to finish.

 

[Keffka]

It works for sure and it's better to keep things simple and there's many different ways to the finish line.

I could’ve been more explicit in my original post. One day I will learn to smoke before I speak so I can be more considerate of varying perspectives lol.

But we're on a Cannabis growers forum and for troubleshooting and better possibility to help we all need to follow the same standard of measure. Otherwise my help might help some people and make the situation worse for others. What works in my situation might not work in your situation and environment.

To better understand what's going on you need as many points of reference as possible but I get your point of view. People treat this plant like it's something very special when it's just another plant that needs a balanced food from start to finish.

I agree wholeheartedly. Prohibition has done us dirty and made many believe cannabis is a secret black box that needs special treatment. Gladly that is increasingly no longer the case.

What’s even better is that now that we do have these forums, studies, data points, measurements, etc. we are able to not only grow our favorite plant, but we’re learning how to push it to its potential and get more out of it than ever before. Without that data, it would all just be anecdotal, and psychological combined with a lot of trial and error. That just sounds like a nightmare I am glad I did not have to deal with. Thankfully there’s room enough for us all and this awesome plant.

As always, I appreciate the conversation!

 

[Ancient Green]

Guys, I didnt read much above yet, but you have to understand I am new to growing. Ive followed the feedcharts for many grows and still had problems mid to late flower. Now, I'm adjusting things a bit and am very unsure if I am overfeeding or underfeeding.

First grow, I followed Fox Farms feed charts using full strength as they recommended, I lost every fan leaf and barely made it to harvest. Second grow, I used the same exact methods at 1/2 the recommended strength and had a succesfful harvest---BUT I still had horrible deficincies...

The bottom line for me is that I simply dont know what to feed and dont even know where to start. I'll have to visit a hydro store in my area and talk to some growers there to see if I can get some direction, I'm failing miserably every time now and need solid guidlines to follow.

I'll post pics of my plant tonight, its much worse than my three previous grows. My plant leaves are toast !. I doubt I'll get 1/4 ounce of bud off this grow IF im lucky. Its embarrasing to even show pics at this point....

Odor report, zero odor ! I friction fit my filter to my fan and stopped the odor from being drawn past my filter... (slap self in head)... So, if I can get this healthy (which I doubt) I still have 3 weeks to go..

I'll post the nightmare pictures tonight--- even though I'm a little ashamed at this point.

 

[Ancient Green]

It works for sure and it's better to keep things simple and there's many different ways to the finish line.

But we're on a Cannabis growers forum and for troubleshooting and better possibility to help we all need to follow the same standard of measure. Otherwise my help might help some people and make the situation worse for others. What works in my situation might not work in your situation and environment.

To better understand what's going on you need as many points of reference as possible but I get your point of view. People treat this plant like it's something very special when it's just another plant that needs a balanced food from start to finish.

So, I have all the bells and whistles. This grow I tried the "simple" approach. I didnt bother to use the Recharge I purchased, I just went with Foliage Pro and Cal mag for most of the grow. That SHOULD be simple I would think but no luck. Trust me, I'm not trying to complicate things, I'm just trying to figure this out.... I dont have any more tricks up my sleeve at this point though. In fact, the more I grow, the less confidence I am gaining. I'm stabbing in the dark.

Weed is super cheap where I live, I'm starting to wonder why I bother.... this is starting to become a huge headache.

 

[Keffka]

Guys, I didnt read much above yet, but you have to understand I am new to growing. Ive followed the feedcharts for many grows and still had problems mid to late flower. Now, I'm adjusting things a bit and am very unsure if I am overfeeding or underfeeding.

First grow, I followed Fox Farms feed charts using full strength as they recommended, I lost every fan leaf and barely made it to harvest. Second grow, I used the same exact methods at 1/2 the recommended strength and had a succesfful harvest---BUT I still had horrible deficincies...

The bottom line for me is that I simply dont know what to feed and dont even know where to start. I'll have to visit a hydro store in my area and talk to some growers there to see if I can get some direction, I'm failing miserably every time now and need solid guidlines to follow.

I'll post pics of my plant tonight, its much worse than my three previous grows. My plant leaves are toast !. I doubt I'll get 1/4 ounce of bud off this grow IF im lucky. Its embarrasing to even show pics at this point....

Odor report, zero odor ! I friction fit my filter to my fan and stopped the odor from being drawn past my filter... (slap self in head)... So, if I can get this healthy (which I doubt) I still have 3 weeks to go..

I'll post the nightmare pictures tonight--- even though I'm a little ashamed at this point.

We just went off on a tangent, it wasn’t about you specifically. It happens from time to time around here. It’s where a lot of random tips get shared that don’t fit into a lot of other places.

We’ll figure it out. Some of the best growers in the world are on these forums. It’s a matter of what you want to accomplish. You seem to be wavering between methods and approaches and it’s slowing you down. With each grow you’re trying new stuff without figuring out what was wrong with the prior grow.

The best way to figure this out is to start from scratch. Pick a method you want. Coco, hydro, soil. Organic or synthetic. Then go from there. Pick one method and one delivery system, and learn it. Observe what happens, and zero in on where the mistakes are happening. This can be achieved by creating journals and documenting what you’re doing and what is happening. As you work through what you’re doing the errors will be spotted if they’re made. Once you’ve mastered that method and are fully confident in it, then you can start switching around and adding or tweaking things.

Any method you pick has world class growers on these forums that can help you. You’ve gotta stick to one approach though and really refine it.

Here’s an example.. You choose soil and organic. The easiest route will be to pickup a bag of Fox Farm Oceans Forest and @GeoFlora Nutrients. Add the soil to your containers and transplant, wait 2 weeks, then use the Geoflora as directed. You will achieve a high quality yield with this method, with very little effort.

 

[Roy Growin]

I've tried lots of methods/combos
Simplest in the world is a bag of coco and some coco nutes 1ml/L > 2ml/L > 3ml/L > 4-5ml/L
Odd splash of kelp once in a while and that's it

 

[Ancient Green]

We just went off on a tangent, it wasn’t about you specifically. It happens from time to time around here. It’s where a lot of random tips get shared that don’t fit into a lot of other places.

Yeah, I figured this. All good, heated discussions are a good thing as long as people stay civil. You dont learn much when you agree all the time !

We’ll figure it out. Some of the best growers in the world are on these forums. It’s a matter of what you want to accomplish. You seem to be wavering between methods and approaches and it’s slowing you down. With each grow you’re trying new stuff without figuring out what was wrong with the prior grow.

Thanks, seriously man you have no idea how much this helps.

The best way to figure this out is to start from scratch. Pick a method you want. Coco, hydro, soil. Organic or synthetic. Then go from there. Pick one method and one delivery system, and learn it. Observe what happens, and zero in on where the mistakes are happening. This can be achieved by creating journals and documenting what you’re doing and what is happening. As you work through what you’re doing the errors will be spotted if they’re made. Once you’ve mastered that method and are fully confident in it, then you can start switching around and adding or tweaking things.

Any method you pick has world class growers on these forums that can help you. You’ve gotta stick to one approach though and really refine it.

Here’s an example.. You choose soil and organic. The easiest route will be to pickup a bag of Fox Farm Oceans Forest and @GeoFlora Nutrients. Add the soil to your containers and transplant, wait 2 weeks, then use the Geoflora as directed. You will achieve a high quality yield with this method, with very little effort.

I like this, thanks. I could go Ocean Forest or Happy Frog again, they worked pretty well for me in the past. Coco Loco is another world and complicating things for me this grow...I need nice and simple.

I really appreciate it... I'll post pics tonight of the horror show... (not the horror show strain) just pure horror after 16 weeks of hard work.

 

[Ancient Green]

I've tried lots of methods/combos
Simplest in the world is a bag of coco and some coco nutes 1ml/L > 2ml/L > 3ml/L > 4-5ml/L
Odd splash of kelp once in a while and that's it

Thanks, maybe down the road I'll try coco again but not for now. Coco Loco really through me off. Anything that requires watering often doesnt go well with a hidden grow cabinet. Ive seen feed charts that mention feeding coco three times a day in flower... LOL that aint gonna happen in a hidden cabinet.

I also like to be able to take long weekends Fly Fishing and need a medium that can go a few days without watering. Soil seems to be my only choice at this point....(or automatic watering systems that I may consider later)...

 

[Phytoplankton]

The best way to figure this out is to start from scratch. Pick a method you want. Coco, hydro, soil. Organic or synthetic. Then go from there. Pick one method and one delivery system, and learn it. Observe what happens, and zero in on where the mistakes are happening. This can be achieved by creating journals and documenting what you’re doing and what is happening. As you work through what you’re doing the errors will be spotted if they’re made. Once you’ve mastered that method and are fully confident in it, then you can start switching around and adding or tweaking things.

Good info there @Keffka! Also while picking a method, take into account things like what characteristic your water has, what climate you're growing in, availability of soil/coco/nutes, etc. In my case I'd like to try coco, BUT, my water has a starting PPM of 1400 to 2400, making it totally unsuitable for coco/hydro, also I don't have an accessable drain for wastewater, and I don't want to install an R/O system (several neighbors have and they are constantly having membrane issues, plus they waste a lot of water).

 

[JiggiLotus]

Thanks, maybe down the road I'll try coco again but not for now. Coco Loco really through me off. Anything that requires watering often doesnt go well with a hidden grow cabinet. Ive seen feed charts that mention feeding coco three times a day in flower... LOL that aint gonna happen in a hidden cabinet.

I also like to be able to take long weekends Fly Fishing and need a medium that can go a few days without watering. Soil seems to be my only choice at this point....(or automatic watering systems that I may consider later)...

When I gotta be away for a few days and leave my girls alone. I tend to wrap a plastic bag around the planter, it keeps the soil moist and helps prevent it from getting dry fast. Slows it down whatever. Wouldn't recommend it for long periods cuz it cuts off air circulation and can kill the roots. But it's a good temporary thing.

 

[Keffka]

Good info there @Keffka! Also while picking a method, take into account things like what characteristic your water has, what climate you're growing in, availability of soil/coco/nutes, etc. In my case I'd like to try coco, BUT, my water has a starting PPM of 1400 to 2400, making it totally unsuitable for coco/hydro, also I don't have an accessable drain for wastewater, and I don't want to install an R/O system (several neighbors have and they are constantly having membrane issues, plus they waste a lot of water).

Good recommendation as well. The path of least resistance will serve best. It’s why I chose Ocean Forest. It’s a good quality soil that is easily sourced for a good price by me. If there were something better/cheaper I’d choose that, I have very little brand loyalty It’s all about what’s going to serve my setup the best. I don’t live near a coast so a lot of the fancier amendments aren’t for me, I go with more classic stuff that is easily sourced. I don’t want to learn to love something just to have it taken away or cost more

I don’t want to feed my plants every day. I don’t want to monitor, or even measure liquids. I want to know if I go away for a week I won’t come back to a horror show. I chose soil with bigger (10 gallon plus) containers. Growing a plant in a 15 gallon container with a bag of ocean forest is just a matter of watering my plants every once in a while. The drawback is, I need extra space, I can’t grow many strains at once, I won’t achieve monstrous yields for my room, and it’s physical work dealing with that size container and plant. I also don’t have micro level control over what’s going on, but I’m okay with that.

Work with your environment and limiting factors the best you can OP. We’re not going anywhere and if you can’t tell, we love talking cannabis

 

[JiggiLotus]

Whoop Whoop to the Ocean Forrest soil! That stuff is amazing